The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why can't it be a literal place that literally imprisons spirit beings?

Tell me how non-literal entities like the beast and the locusts can be imprisoned in a literal place.

Maybe the LOF isn't a literal place, either?

That is correct, at least in terms of it being a literal lake of fire. Unless you think death can be cast into a literal lake of fire somehow (Rev 20:14)?

Maybe it too is just a spiritual condition?

Whatever it represents, it has to do with unbelievers experiencing torment. Is there some literal place where that will occur? Maybe, but it's not going to be a literal lake of fire where people literally burn for eternity. It's also described as "outer darkness", so how can a literal lake of fire be a place of darkness?

In Revelation 20 both the pit and LOF have the following in common, meaning what I have underlined in each.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yeah, so? In each case, it describes both literal and non-literal entities being cast into them. That should tell you something. How can a non-literal entity be cast into a literal place?

Which then begs the question, how does one get cast into a spiritual condition? What is that supposed to look like? What do you assume it looks like per the latter two involving being cast into the LOF? Per the latter two do you envision anyone literally being cast into some literal place? If a literal place is meant, to be cast into obviously means someone physically throws them in, since it is highly unlikely that they just jump into there on their own.

Tell me how non-literal locusts were literally cast into a literal place. Tell me how death can be literally cast into a literal place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The dead know nothing!

Ah, yes, the go to verse of those who believe in soul sleep. And, naturally, you can't both believe in soul sleep and believe in Amillennialism since Amills believe that the souls of the dead in Christ reign in heaven with Jesus.

How close have you looked at the context of that verse (Ecclesiastes 9:5)? Let's take a look at it in context to see if it teaches what you think it does or not.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

So, the context is established in verses 3 and 4 above in that this text relates specifically to "things that are done under the sun...while they live", which means things that are done during this temporary lifetime on earth up to the time when someone physically dies.

What is the text saying "the dead know not any thing" contrasted with? It's contrasted with the living knowing that they shall die. The living, while under the sun, know that they will die. The dead no longer know ahead of time that they will die because they are now dead. It does NOT say the dead know nothing while they are dead. You are taking that completely out of context. The context indicates that they are no longer alive so they no longer know or experience the things that they did while still alive under the sun.

Look at verse 6 for further insight into the context of verse 5. What is it that the dead don't know? Literally nothing because they are unconscious? No! That's not what it says at all. What they don't know is what they used to do and feel while they were alive under the sun. They no longer know "their love, and their hatred, and their envy" that they knew while still alive because they can't experience those things under the sun (on the earth) any longer. That's why it says "neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun". That's what they don't know. They don't know or can't experience anything under the sun anymore because they are dead. That does not mean their souls and spirits have no consciousness, it just means they are not alive on earth under the sun anymore.

Look at this passage...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I would think you would agree that John is seeing the souls of those who were physically dead here? Does this passage give the impression that they literally know nothing and are unconscious? Not at all, right? So, what does that tell you about how you should interpret Ecclesiastes 9:5? You don't want to interpret it in such a way that contradicts other scripture, right? And that's why I don't. But, currently, you do.

Another thing to consider is Luke 16:19-31 where Jesus shows dead people having consciousness. And then there is the transfiguration of Jesus where He talked to Moses and Elijah who are physically dead. So, clearly, dead people have consciousness and know more than nothing.

 

[Davidpt]

Tell me how non-literal entities like the beast and the locusts can be imprisoned in a literal place.

Maybe I should clarify what I'm meaning by a literal place. I'm meaning in a realm that we are not familiar with, have not seen, and that within this realm spirits can be literally imprisoned in a literal place of some kind. What about when someone lost dies, per your view? If spirits can't be imprisoned in some literal place, what is preventing the lost from roaming around wherever they care to? Maybe they want to hang around on the earth? What would be preventing them from doing that if there is no prisons in the spirit world capable of imprisoning any spirits?

That is correct, at least in terms of it being a literal lake of fire. Unless you think death can be cast into a literal lake of fire somehow (Rev 20:14)?

Have you thought about interpreting that in light of verse 13? Doesn't verse 13 tell us what is meant by death and hell that it is meaning them that were in them? Therefore, when death and hell get cast into the LOF it could be another way of saying those that were in death and hell get cast into the LOF.

Also, have you considered comparing to the following?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sounds like to me all these fit someone that were in death and hell, thus the death and hell cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:14, where that verse also says it is the 2nd death.

Tell me how non-literal locusts were literally cast into a literal place. Tell me how death can be literally cast into a literal place.

IOW, because they are not literal locusts, this means there is no one to cast into anywhere, especially somewhere literal? Yet, what does that have to do with anything since these locusts obviously symbolize something literal? IOW, they literally exist in some form except they are not literal locusts.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Maybe this verse explains some of this?

 

[Davidpt]

If it’s literal then how can you have a bottomless pit? Obviously it’s symbolic for something

maybe bottomless can simply mean unfathomable depth? Doesn't have to mean it is literally bottomless, though.

 

[Marty fox]

Peter indicated that he was living in the last days and the last days are still going on now since they represent the time period during which people call on the name of the Lord and are saved and have the Holy Spirit poured out on them (Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:16-21). The last days will end when Jesus comes as it represents the time during which people scoff at the promise of His second coming (2 Peter 3:3-4). So, I'm not seeing your point here.

Yes you missed it because you didn’t address what I said

What did Joel describe was coming upon Jerusalem? An army of locus who look like horses and have the sound of chariots

Peter then says that his days was the days of Joel where the spirit of the Lord is poured out and sons and daughters will prophesy. Peter then says that the sun will be darkened and there will be blood fire and smoke the words of Joel chapter 2 and revelation chapter 9 so yes this is about Jerusalem and 70AD this is no coincidence.

 

[Marty fox]

maybe bottomless can simply mean unfathomable depth? Doesn't have to mean it is literally bottomless, though.

But you said that the pit is literal and a bottomless pit is impossible it’s a hole with an opening and an exit

If it was a literal deep pit then it would say deep pit

 

[CTK]

Ah, yes, the go to verse of those who believe in soul sleep. And, naturally, you can't both believe in soul sleep and believe in Amillennialism since Amills believe that the souls of the dead in Christ reign in heaven with Jesus.

How close have you looked at the context of that verse (Ecclesiastes 9:5)? Let's take a look at it in context to see if it teaches what you think it does or not.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

So, the context is established in verses 3 and 4 above in that this text relates specifically to "things that are done under the sun...while they live", which means things that are done during this temporary lifetime on earth up to the time when someone physically dies.

What is the text saying "the dead know not any thing" contrasted with? It's contrasted with the living knowing that they shall die. The living, while under the sun, know that they will die. The dead no longer know ahead of time that they will die because they are now dead. It does NOT say the dead know nothing while they are dead. You are taking that completely out of context. The context indicates that they are no longer alive so they no longer know or experience the things that they did while still alive under the sun.

Look at verse 6 for further insight into the context of verse 5. What is it that the dead don't know? Literally nothing because they are unconscious? No! That's not what it says at all. What they don't know is what they used to do and feel while they were alive under the sun. They no longer know "their love, and their hatred, and their envy" that they knew while still alive because they can't experience those things under the sun (on the earth) any longer. That's why it says "neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun". That's what they don't know. They don't know or can't experience anything under the sun anymore because they are dead. That does not mean their souls and spirits have no consciousness, it just means they are not alive on earth under the sun anymore.

Look at this passage...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I would think you would agree that John is seeing the souls of those who were physically dead here? Does this passage give the impression that they literally know nothing and are unconscious? Not at all, right? So, what does that tell you about how you should interpret Ecclesiastes 9:5? You don't want to interpret it in such a way that contradicts other scripture, right? And that's why I don't. But, currently, you do.

Another thing to consider is Luke 16:19-31 where Jesus shows dead people having consciousness. And then there is the transfiguration of Jesus where He talked to Moses and Elijah who are physically dead. So, clearly, dead people have consciousness and know more than nothing.

Just got back and read your recent response to the issue of the dead.

It is more than clear there is such a great divide between our interpretations of Scripture- not just Revelation but I would imagine it would be that way in all 66 books.

So, I don’t believe it is necessary to continue…

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe I should clarify what I'm meaning by a literal place. I'm meaning in a realm that we are not familiar with, have not seen, and that within this realm spirits can be literally imprisoned in a literal place of some kind.

Let's say it is a literal place of some kind. What we should not do is assume that such a place is no different than a physical place on earth. Like you said, we are not familiar with the spirit realm. We can't see it and we should not pretend to know exactly what it's like because we don't. We know that it's not a physical place as in a literal, physical bottomless pit or physical prison because it talks about non-literal entities like a beast, a dragon and locusts being imprisoned there. Whatever that literal place would be, it's not a literal bottomless pit. A non-literal beast, dragon or locust cannot be imprisoned in a literal bottomless pit. The whole descriptions of a beast, a dragon and locusts being imprisoned in a bottomless pit is symbolic. The beast, the dragon, the locusts, the chain, the bottomless pit are all symbolic entities. What that all symbolizes is what we need to determine. For Amills, it symbolizes restraint from doing certain things and is not to be compared to being physically chained up in a physical prison where someone is completely incapacitated.

In the case of the locusts in terms of what is described in Revelation 9, they are not completely incapacitated in some literal place where they can do nothing. No, it's not literal locusts. So, it's talking about fallen angels being restrained from doing something. What is that? Well, based on Revelation 9, they are restrained from tormenting all of those who don't have the seal of God to the point of making them want to die. In no way, shape or form does it indicate that they are literally incapacitated while in the bottomless pit and unable to do anything at all. That's what you need to understand about the dragon (Satan) and the beast being in the bottomless pit as well.

What about when someone lost dies, per your view? If spirits can't be imprisoned in some literal place, what is preventing the lost from roaming around wherever they care to? Maybe they want to hang around on the earth? What would be preventing them from doing that if there is no prisons in the spirit world capable of imprisoning any spirits?

Look, I'm not saying there can't be a literal place of some kind where spirits are contained and unable to roam around or do anything. I believe hell is a literal place and that's where the spirits of unbelievers are. Can I describe what that's like or what that means exactly? No, none of us can. I'm simply saying that is not what is indicated in relation to the bottomless pit which is not a literal bottomless pit. It's not any more literal than the beast, dragon or locusts cast there.

We can see that the locusts do a certain thing when released from the bottomless pit. We can see the dragon, Satan, doing a certain thing when released from the pit. Nowhere in these verses that talk about entities being released from the pit that it mean they formerly were not able to do anything at all and now are able to do whatever they want. No, in the case of the locusts (fallen angels), they formerly were not able to torment those without the seal of God to the point of them wanting to die, but once released from the pit, they are able to do so.

Have you thought about interpreting that in light of verse 13? Doesn't verse 13 tell us what is meant by death and hell that it is meaning them that were in them? Therefore, when death and hell get cast into the LOF it could be another way of saying those that were in death and hell get cast into the LOF.

Actually, I have thought about that, but it would be redundant if that is what it meant since verse 15 talks about those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire. The dead being judged in verse 13 are those whose names are not written in the book of life, so death itself is differentiated from them. Also, what exactly would that mean for hell to be cast into the lake of fire? Is the lake of fire bigger than hell, so you can just kind of dump hell into it? Come on. No, that's absurd and not what it's saying.

Also, have you considered comparing to the following?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sounds like to me all these fit someone that were in death and hell, thus the death and hell cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:14, where that verse also says it is the 2nd death.

Again, if that's what it meant it would make verse 15 redundant.

IOW, because they are not literal locusts, this means there is no one to cast into anywhere, especially somewhere literal?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Unless you can explain how non-literal locusts can be cast into a literal place? Can you? If the locusts are not literal it only follows that the place that are cast into is not literal either. Could the bottomless pit symbolize a literal place of some kind? I suppose it could. But, I don't believe it does because in none of the cases where it describes things being in the bottomless pit does it say that it makes them completely incapacitated and unable to move around or do anything at all.

Yet, what does that have to do with anything since these locusts obviously symbolize something literal? IOW, they literally exist in some form except they are not literal locusts.

Yes, of course. They symbolize fallen angels. But, my point is that they are described as non-literal locusts imprisoned in a bottomless pit. If the locusts themselves are not literal, which they are not (they instead symbolize something literal), then these symbolic locusts should not be seen as being in a literal bottomless pit. Instead, the bottomless pit is symbolic just as the locusts are.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Maybe this verse explains some of this?

Think about what that verse is saying. Should we take that to be saying that the fallen angels are literally chained up and unable to do anything? We know that can't be what it means. The fallen angels/demons would love nothing more than for people to believe that so that they can freely go around trying to deceive people who think they are just chained up somewhere and unable to do anything.

By the way, the Greek for translated as "hell" in that verse is not the hell that other scriptures speaks about, which is Hades, the place where the spirits of dead unbelievers go. The Greek word translated in that verse as "hell" is tartaroō, which in English is called Tartarus. Clearly, fallen angels/demons have not been literally chained up since they fell since they've been plenty active deceiving people and even possessing some people for many years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

maybe bottomless can simply mean unfathomable depth? Doesn't have to mean it is literally bottomless, though.

How interesting for you to say that it doesn't have to mean it's literally bottomless. If you allow for that, then just take it a step further and realize that it doesn't have to refer to a literal place at all, let alone a place that is literally bottomless.

 

[Davidpt]

But you said that the pit is literal and a bottomless pit is impossible it’s a hole with an opening and an exit

If it was a literal deep pit then it would say deep pit

Have you not looked at the Greek word?

abussos
ab'-us-sos
from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of buqoV - buthos 1037; depthless, i.e. (specially) (infernal) "abyss":-- deep , (bottomless) pit

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit(abussos), and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep(thowm). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And what about what is recorded in Genesis 1? Surely there is a connection here. Surely you take the face of the deep in the literal sense here since there should be no doctrinal reason for you not to?

IOW, the deep exists below the face(the surface). And from the perspective of the face of the earth it would appear to be bottomless since it would be impossible to know it's depths from that pov.




thowm
teh-home'
or thom {teh-home'}; (usually feminine) from 'huwm' (1949); an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply):--deep (place), depth

Also take note where the beast ascends out of per Revelation 13:1.

Revelation 13:1 ¶And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Per this context since a sea would be the deep, and that the deep is connected with the bp, the bp is then being meant by 'sea'.

Then there is this as well.

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just got back and read your recent response to the issue of the dead.

It is more than clear there is such a great divide between our interpretations of Scripture- not just Revelation but I would imagine it would be that way in all 66 books.

So, I don’t believe it is necessary to continue…

Do we have to agree on everything in order to discuss scripture? That doesn't stop anyone else on this forum from discussing things with each other. Why is it that you don't even want to address what I said about Ecclesiastes 9:5? Are you able to refute what I said? Have you ever studied the verse closely in context?

You said to rwb "You assume but fail to prove". I proved my understanding of Ecclesisastes 9:5 using scripture. Why don't you want to do the same? Why do you tell others they fail to prove while you don't prove that your own view is true? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 

[rwb]

Timeline
1. The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection (the righteous dead)

• The dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive in the faith will be caught up together with them.

Charlie, you seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between the Kingdom of God that now is and the Kingdom of God that shall be when Christ comes again. Unless we come to the same understanding of the Kingdom of God that came with Christ when He came to earth a man, we will never be able to agree! Before going forward could you please explain to me your understanding of the Kingdom of God that came with Christ to earth? How will the Kingdom of God that came to earth with Christ differ when Christ comes the Second time? Unless we clearly understand the Kingdom of God Christ ushered in at His first advent, we will never be able to understand how the Kingdom of God shall never be found physically on this earth.

Why does Christ say the KOG cannot be known (see) or entered unless man is born again?

 

[rwb]

As I've already explained those who physically die in faith do not come "to life and reign with Him for 1,000 years."

I apologize but I do not have a good understanding of your view on this…again, I do not have a good understanding of all of the interpretations / beliefs you bring forward to Revelation.

Those who die in faith, need not come to life again to live and reign with Christ! Why? Because the life we receive when we are born of God is eternal, and not even death of our body can take away the everlasting life we have through Christ's Spirit in us. It is written that when our body is dead, our spirit returns alive to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7; Heb 12:23; Jo 6:63). Because the spirit of man of faith has everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ in us, death of our body simply means that we shall be a spiritual body of Christ in heaven, called living souls. In death the spirit of man in unbelief returns to God, but is said to be in darkness and silence in the grave.

This is how we can know with assurance that any translation saying the dead in Christ must come to life again to live and reign with Christ are writing their biases into the Word of God. The spirit of mankind already possessing everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ in them is already spiritually alive and fit through Christ's Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. It is only the mortal body of faithful saints that must be resurrected immortal and incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day that must be made to live again, and this will be accomplished through our living spirit that shall return with Christ. Because all who physically sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (1Th 4:14)

 

[CTK]

Charlie, you seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between the Kingdom of God that now is and the Kingdom of God that shall be when Christ comes again. Unless we come to the same understanding of the Kingdom of God that came with Christ when He came to earth a man, we will never be able to agree! Before going forward could you please explain to me your understanding of the Kingdom of God that came with Christ to earth? How will the Kingdom of God that came to earth with Christ differ when Christ comes the Second time? Unless we clearly understand the Kingdom of God Christ ushered in at His first advent, we will never be able to understand how the Kingdom of God shall never be found physically on this earth.

Why does Christ say the KOG cannot be known (see) or entered unless man is born again?

As I mentioned, Jesus came to "set up" or "establish" His kingdom - but not physically, but spiritually. When He returns, everything will be perfected.. we will be with Him forever. Do you have a different understanding? Please tell me how you see this ..

 

[rwb]

I would respectfully ask you to review this phrase again. This had got to be THE most misinterpreted phrase in the Scriptures. Everyone uses it the same way you do….

2 Corinth 5: 6-8
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Everyone forgets to consider the word “rather.” We would RATHER bee with the Lord and absent from the body. We would certainly be willing to leave this physical earth / existence and be with the Lord if we had the choice. But we are NOT with the Lord after we die… that only comes when He calls us out of the grave at the end of time. So, I can see how this would also contribute to your different interpretations in Revelation.

With more context Paul says he is at home while clothed in his body of flesh, but while being clothed in flesh and blood he cannot be physically with the Lord. For that reason Paul longs to put off his body (die) because he would much rather be spiritually present with the Lord in heaven rather than to continue to be clothed in flesh and blood and without ability to inherit the Kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul understood that for him to remain alive would be beneficial for his brethren, realizing that Christ would be magnified in his body whether by life or death. For Paul understood to live is Christ and to die is for his gain. Paul would not have been ready to die if he believed that death of his body would keep him from being with Christ. Paul longed to be in a far better place that is the Kingdom of God in heaven, but understood that he would not be alive in heaven until his work on earth was done.

Philippians 1:19-21 (KJV) For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

 

[rwb]

The dead know nothing!

We no longer belong to the dead when we have been born again. At the moment of new birth we have been made eternally alive in Christ and even though our body will one day breathe its last, we as spiritual body shall be living souls in heaven that we may always been where Christ is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

With more context Paul says he is at home while clothed in his body of flesh, but while being clothed in flesh and blood he cannot be physically with the Lord. For that reason Paul longs to put off his body (die) because he would much rather be spiritually present with the Lord in heaven rather than to continue to be clothed in flesh and blood and without ability to inherit the Kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul understood that for him to remain alive would be beneficial for his brethren, realizing that Christ would be magnified in his body whether by life or death. For Paul understood to live is Christ and to die is for his gain. Paul would not have been ready to die if he believed that death of his body would keep him from being with Christ. Paul longed to be in a far better place that is the Kingdom of God in heaven, but understood that he would not be alive in heaven until his work on earth was done.

Philippians 1:19-21 (KJV) For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

I mostly agree with what you're saying here, except I'm wondering why you are referencing 1 Corinthians 15:50 in the context of being absent from the body and present with the Lord? That verse relates to us being changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies at the last trumpet when Jesus returns (see the verses which immediately follow it). But, you think that verse relates to what happens to us upon our physical death?

 

[rwb]

As I mentioned, Jesus came to "set up" or "establish" His kingdom - but not physically, but spiritually. When He returns, everything will be perfected.. we will be with Him forever. Do you have a different understanding? Please tell me how you see this ..

Okay, this is a good starting point. We agree the Kingdom of God that came with Christ to earth is not a physical Kingdom but is a spiritual Kingdom. When Christ says that man MUST be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God, is our entrance into His Kingdom through His Spirit in us, or do we enter through flesh? Since we all know that every man is ordained to physical death, why does Christ assure us the life we receive when we have been born again is ETERNAL and can NEVER die? Is He speaking of our spirit or flesh?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes you missed it because you didn’t address what I said

Yes, I did. You referenced Joel 2 and Acts 2 and so did I.

What did Joel describe was coming upon Jerusalem? An army of locus who look like horses and have the sound of chariots

Did he say they were previously in the bottomless pit? Did you not say that you believe Abaddon is Satan? Satan is not the king of those who came upon Jerusalem, he is the king of the fallen angels. That's why it says they are his angels (Revelation 12:9, Matthew 25:41). So, Revelation 9 needs to be understood in that context.

Peter then says that his days was the days of Joel where the spirit of the Lord is poured out and sons and daughters will prophesy. Peter then says that the sun will be darkened and there will be blood fire and smoke the words of Joel chapter 2 and revelation chapter 9 so yes this is about Jerusalem and 70AD this is no coincidence.

Wrong. Do you not know that the prophecy that Peter was quoting was Joel 2:28-32 and began to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and is still being fulfilled today? Part of the prophecy was that whoever calls on the name of the Lord would be saved. Are people not still calling on the name of the Lord and being saved? Of course they are. So, you have proven that what I said is true, which is that you look at everything through your preterist lens and that clouds your vision of passages like Revelation 9 which have nothing to do with 70 AD and instead is a passage related to Satan's little season that occurs before the future return of Christ.

Also, what does 70 AD have to do with anyone going and tormenting people to the point of them wanting to die, but they can't die, as Revelation 9 talks about?

 

[CTK]

Those who die in faith, need not come to life again to live and reign with Christ! Why? Because the life we receive when we are born of God is eternal, and not even death of our body can take away the everlasting life we have through Christ's Spirit in us.

But those who die in faith are indeed resurrected to be with Him forever - this is the first resurrection.

It is written that when our body is dead, our spirit returns alive to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7; Heb 12:23; Jo 6:63). Because the spirit of man of faith has everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ in us, death of our body simply means that we shall be a spiritual body of Christ in heaven, called living souls.

Well, here we have. a big disagreement.... and as I mentioned in my earlier response to you... there are / must be many very different interpretations between us that are brought forward to interpreting Revelation.

When we die, our body returns to the ground. That is it until we are resurrected and God will impart His spirit into us so we can be with Him forever. We do not have our own "spirit" or "soul" that is separated when we die with our body going into the ground and a "soul or spirit" going somewhere else. Everyone born AFTER Adam was born as a "living being." Only Adam was born as a "living soul" because God breathed into him HIS SPIRIT / HOLINESS. But this "spirit" immediately returned back to God when he sinned. Adam did not have his own spirit or soul. The only thing allowing us to be with God at the end of time is when He resurrecs each one of us that have placed their faith in HIm. Then, He will once again restore "HIS SPIRIT / HIS HOLINESS" INTO OUR BODY.

In death the spirit of man in unbelief returns to God, but is said to be in darkness and silence in the grave.

No, nothing returns to God after we die... because we are all born as a "living being," devoid of God's spirit or holiness within us. This is what is necessary for us to be, once again, restored into us - HIS Spirit / holiness. We have no way of obtaining any level of holiness or His spirit unless He gives it to us - He imparts His spirit into us once again.

This is how we can know with assurance that any translation saying the dead in Christ must come to life again to live and reign with Christ are writing their biases into the Word of God.

I don't see things that way you do. God will bring us out of the grave and impart His Spirit into us so we can be with Him forever. The only way this will happen is if we are born again --- if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This commitment to Him will allow Him to bring us out of the grave in the first resurrection so we can be with Him during the 1000 year millenium - while those who rejected Him will stay in their graves for that period of time only to also be resurrected - but to damation.

The spirit of mankind already possessing everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ in them is already spiritually alive and fit through Christ's Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God in heaven.

This is most likely where we do not see things the same and is causing our different understandings of the end times. Just because we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour does not mean our "spirit" is now currently with Him. We do not have His Spirit within us even though we have accepted Him. It is an "already, but not," concept. By accepting Him as our savior, we are assured we will be with Him forever... but while we are on this earth we are nothing more than a "living being." Until He brings us out of the grave and imparts HIS Spirit within us, we are not perfected.

It is only the mortal body of faithful saints that must be resurrected immortal and incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day that must be made to live again, and this will be accomplished through our living spirit that shall return with Christ. Because all who physically sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (1Th 4:14)

I am confused here. We do not have our own spirit that continues after we die. We are made of earth given a consciousness, an understanding or being, intellect, awarenes, etc. But none of those are to be confused with "His Spirit" that must be restored within us. When He brings us out of our grave... if it is within the first resurretion - He will impart His Spirit within us and we will be with Him forever. If He brings us out of the grave at the second resurrection, it will be because we rejected Him and He will not be imparting His Spirit within us - only to be judged. So, if you are part of the second resurrection, you will still be brought to Him with the same awareness, consciousness, intellect, etc. that you had on earth, but you will not be receiving His Spirit and you will be aware of His judgement on you.

Those who die in faith, need not come to life again to live and reign with Christ! Why? Because the life we receive when we are born of God is eternal, and not even death of our body can take away the everlasting life we have through Christ's Spirit in us. It is written that when our body is dead, our spirit returns alive to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7; Heb 12:23; Jo 6:63). Because the spirit of man of faith has everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ in us, death of our body simply means that we shall be a spiritual body of Christ in heaven, called living souls. In death the spirit of man in unbelief returns to God, but is said to be in darkness and silence in the grave.

I believe I addressed this above.

This is how we can know with assurance that any translation saying the dead in Christ must come to life again to live and reign with Christ are writing their biases into the Word of God. The spirit of mankind already possessing everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ in them is already spiritually alive and fit through Christ's Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. It is only the mortal body of faithful saints that must be resurrected immortal and incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day that must be made to live again, and this will be accomplished through our living spirit that shall return with Christ. Because all who physically sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (1Th 4:14)

I think I addressed this above... not sure if this is a duplicate...