The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Davidpt]

Revelation
9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the keyto the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

Because the text only says that the locus are allowed out at that time. Remember they have to be allowed out, it doesn’t say that apollyon is allowed out only that he is their king. If he was allowed out at that time the text would say so. That would be an assumptiom.

Satan is allowed out in Revelation 20:7
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

We have to go by what the scriptures say

If your position is that Abaddon and satan are one and the same, though personally I disagree they are, you are not making much sense in that case. As if it is reasonable that if the pit is opened and satan is inside, and that satan then says, thanks, but no thanks. I don't want out of here as well, I kind of like it in here, actually I could stay in here forever, it is that pleasant in here. This assuming the pit is literal. But how can it not be literal? What could possibly explain how the following appear all of a sudden---And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth? Appear from where? They have to be somewhere else first before they can be here coming out of the smoke.

And yes, I noticed that you used 'allowed out' as an argument. But it doesn't matter anyway, per my perspective, since I don't agree to begin with that Abaddon and satan are one and the same. But let's say I'm wrong about that, that they are indeed one and the same. Nowhere in the text does it say Abaddon is in the pit with the locusts. The text only informs us that Abaddon is it's king. As if Abaddon can only be the king of the pit if he too is inside of it. That might be like saying a warden can't be the warden of a prison unless he or she is also locked up inside with the prisoners.

 

[Marty fox]

If your position is that Abaddon and satan are one and the same, though personally I disagree they are, you are not making much sense in that case. As if it is reasonable that if the pit is opened and satan is inside, and that satan then says, thanks, but no thanks. I don't want out of here as well, I kind of like it in here, actually I could stay in here forever, it is that pleasant in here. This assuming the pit is literal. But how can it not be literal? What could possibly explain how the following appear all of a sudden---And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth? Appear from where? They have to be somewhere else first before they can be here coming out of the smoke.

And yes, I noticed that you used 'allowed out' as an argument. But it doesn't matter anyway, per my perspective, since I don't agree to begin with that Abaddon and satan are one and the same. But let's say I'm wrong about that, that they are indeed one and the same. Nowhere in the text does it say Abaddon is in the pit with the locusts. The text only informs us that Abaddon is it's king. As if Abaddon can only be the king of the pit if he too is inside of it. That might be like saying a warden can't be the warden of a prison unless he or she is also locked up inside with the prisoners.

The Old Testament repeatley calls satan the destroyer and abaddon means destroyer and satan is the king

We know that satan is put in the bottles pit don’t we?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because only the locus are called out and allowed to come out and only for a purpose. Remember the bottomless pit is actually a spiritual condition and not a literal place

Why would their king not be leading them to serve that purpose? And, yes, I know that the bottomless pit is a spiritual condition and not a literal place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If your position is that Abaddon and satan are one and the same, though personally I disagree they are, you are not making much sense in that case. As if it is reasonable that if the pit is opened and satan is inside, and that satan then says, thanks, but no thanks.

That's basically what I'm saying to him as well. Of course, in our Amill view, it's not talking about Satan being literally chained up in a literal place, but the idea is the same. From the Amil perspective, it would be as if Satan would say "No, I'm fine with being restrained in what I can do. Leave the chain on me. I'll just let my angels go and do their thing and not bother going with them even though I'm their king".

This assuming the pit is literal. But how can it not be literal? What could possibly explain how the following appear all of a sudden---And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth? Appear from where? They have to be somewhere else first before they can be here coming out of the smoke.

Amils don't see the pit as being literal. It's not any more literal than the locusts that are in it. You don't believe the locusts are literal, do you? If not, then how can non-literal locusts be in a literal pit?

And yes, I noticed that you used 'allowed out' as an argument. But it doesn't matter anyway, per my perspective, since I don't agree to begin with that Abaddon and satan are one and the same. But let's say I'm wrong about that, that they are indeed one and the same. Nowhere in the text does it say Abaddon is in the pit with the locusts. The text only informs us that Abaddon is it's king. As if Abaddon can only be the king of the pit if he too is inside of it. That might be like saying a warden can't be the warden of a prison unless he or she is also locked up inside with the prisoners.

That's an odd way of looking at it. The warden is in the prison with the prisoners, right? Why would their king not be in the same place as they are? That makes no sense.

Who do you think the locusts represent? Who do you think their king Abaddon is?

 

[Marty fox]

Why would their king not be leading them to serve that purpose? And, yes, I know that the bottomless pit is a spiritual condition and not a literal place.

Because God commands them to do it not satan

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the NT, in the KJV in this case, there is no exact phrase for 'one thousand'. Yet there is an exact phrase for 'two thousand', 'three thousand', 'four thousand', etc. It then begs the question, what then in the NT means one thousand? 'A thousand' of course. What else if not that? After all, it doesn't stand to reason that 'a thousand' can mean two thousand if two thousand is what means two thousand. Therefore, 'a thousand' has to mean 'one thousand' since it can't mean anything else.

If you guys were actually honest about this, you would acknowledge that the phrase "a thousand" can be used literally or figuratively instead of trying to act as if it can only refer to a literal one thousand. So, all this nonsense that ewq1938 is saying does not prove that it has to be one thousand. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10). Is that referring to a literal one thousand hills or is it a figurative number indicating that He owns the cattle on all the hills, however many there are?

And like I showed, it certainly can't mean two thousand if two thousand is what means two thousand. The same logic would have to be true pertaining to 'three thousand', so on and so on. Which kind of addresses your point about whether or not God can speak of exactly a thousand of something using the Greek language? Of course He can though Amils likely disagree, therefore, making something that is logical something impossible for God to do.

I don't disagree that "a thousand" CAN refer to one thousand, but it can also be used figuratively to refer to an unknown number.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because God commands them to do it not satan

God gives them the limitations of what they are able to do, but it's not as if they are doing something they don't want to do (torment people). Satan would certainly want to be involved in that. But, believe what you want. Your preterist beliefs dictate how you interpret Revelation 9 and I think it's sad.

 

[rwb]

My View: The repeated reference to "a thousand years" (six times in Revelation 20) indicates a literal time period. John uses clear chronological language, describing a literal sequence of events, including Satan’s binding, resurrection of the righteous, reign of the saints, and eventual judgment.

Your POV (1) Charlie, this view does not address the inconsistencies and even contradictions a literal one thousand years of time creates. How can the same thousand years be both past and future and still be literally one thousand years?


Reply to POV (2)

Some translations do cause apparent contradiction by speaking in a way that leads us to believe the martyred saints must be made physically alive AGAIN to live and reign with Christ. So that there are no inconsistencies or contradictions forced into the Word of God, how do you reconcile saints having to come to life again with the FACT that Christ tells us that "whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die"?

One translation that eliminates this error KJB shows us that physical death cannot take away the eternal life we received from Christ the moment we heard the gospel and by grace through faith believed in Christ. In this chapter of Revelation, John proves that not even martyrdom can take away the everlasting/eternal life we spiritually received the moment we believed. John writes only that he saw ALIVE souls that had been martyred for their faith. John is showing us the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God in heaven, which is where believers, as living souls go to be with the Lord when we have breathed our last.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Paul longed to be with the Lord and was more than willing to physically die, knowing that death could only kill his mortal body, but it could not keep his spirit from returning to the Lord in heaven a living soul.


Reply to POV 3

As I've already explained those who physically die in faith do not come "to life and reign with Him for 1,000 years." For us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in heaven. That's why Christ tells us that we need have no fear of those who kill our physical body, for they have no power to kill our living soul. After death the spirit of all who die in faith returns to God ALIVE. Unlike the spirit of all who physically die in unbelief whose spirit returns to God in darkness and silence.



Reply to POV 4

You assume but fail to prove! Now, since the first advent of Christ is the time, symbolically a thousand years, when man MUST hear the Word of God and believe on His Son to have everlasting life, passing from death to life. This is when we hear and believe and spiritually enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. This hour began for all of mankind, and even NOW is, when the spiritually dead, not the physically dead, MUST hear the voice of Christ that they shall spiritually live.

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

There is an end for this hour that NOW is for spiritually hearing and believing for life. It shall be the hour that is coming when ALL they physically dead in the graves shall hear Christ's voice and ALL of the physically dead shall come forth to resurrection life, or resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again, it is important to consider the translation you're using because Bible versions often bring certain biases into the translations. I am confident the KJV has properly translated vs 4 because the translators have reconciled the FACT taught throughout Scripture that gives faithful saints full assurance that the life we receive in Christ is eternal and death of our body cannot take away the eternal life we are promised when we are born again.

Reply to POV 5


Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Again, it is important to consider the translation you're using because Bible versions often bring certain biases into the translations. I am confident the KJV has properly translated vs 4 because the translators have reconciled the FACT taught throughout Scripture that gives faithful saints full assurance that the life we receive in Christ is eternal and death of our body cannot take away the eternal life we are promised when we are born again.

Reply to POV 6

Yes, during this period of time, symbolized a thousand years faithful saints have both lived and reigned with Christ not only while physically alive, but also after physical death. During the same period of time symbolized a thousand years there shall also be others called blessed and holy, having part in the first resurrection that overcome the second death who "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Our living and reigning with Christ begin with spiritual birth from above, and does not end when our body breathes its last. For the life we receive through Christ when we have been born again is FOREVER!

Do you NOT believe that Christ came with the Kingdom of God? Are you looking only for a literal/physical Kingdom of God to come to this earth and therefore fail to realize the Kingdom Christ came to earth with is NOT, and shall NEVER be a physical Kingdom on this earth?

My View: While John 5:28–29 speaks of a general resurrection, Revelation 20 adds detail and reveals these are two separate events. The “hour” can mean "appointed time," not a single moment. Paul (1 Cor. 15:23–24) and Revelation 20 together show an order: Christ, then those who are His at His coming, then the end.

Reply to POV 7


The Bible nowhere speaks of two separate physical resurrection events! The Bible clearly shows us that ALL of the physically dead shall be resurrected (bodily) on the last day. Scripture speaks of the first resurrection that refers to the resurrection of Christ being the first to be raised physically from the dead to never die again. The Bible also speaks of the general resurrection of ALL who have died being bodily resurrected to life or condemnation in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

My View: Jesus is the "first fruits" (1 Cor. 15:20), but Revelation 20:5–6 defines the first resurrection as the resurrection of the saints who reign with Christ. It includes all believers who are raised to life before the Millennium.

Reply to POV 8

Prove what you allege without forcing inconsistencies and contradictions into the Word of God!

Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Peter 1:3-4 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Revelation 1:5-6 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Difference: Your view places this after the literal 1,000-year reign and the second resurrection, following a clear and ordered timeline.

Reply to your POV 9

No, my understanding places the judgment after TIME that is symbolized a/the thousand years, and Satan's little season after this time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God is fulfilled.

 

[CTK]

Charlie, this view does not address the inconsistencies and even contradictions a literal one thousand years of time creates. How can the same thousand years be both past and future and still be literally one thousand years?


S

I just posted the timeline (below) in another topic... now I see you have responded here so I am reposting also. I would ask if you might identify which of the elements in the timeline you disagree with. In the meantime, I will go over your lenghty comment. Thanks so much.

Where do you (anyone) disagree with this timeline of year end events in chapter 20?


Timeline
1. The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection (the righteous dead)

• The dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive in the faith will be caught up together with them.

Key verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds…”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... at the last trump... the dead shall be raised incorruptible…”

Revelation 20:4-6
“...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years... this is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection…”
2.a. The Wicked Alive Are Destroyed by the Brightness of His Coming

• Those who rejected Christ and are still alive at His coming will be slain.

Key verses:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
“...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven... taking vengeance on them that know not God...”

2 Thessalonians 2:8
“...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming…”

Revelation 19:21
“And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse…”
2.b. The Beast and the False Prophet Are Thrown into the Lake of Fire

• The beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire.

Key verse:

Revelation 19:20
“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
3. Satan Is Bound and Cast into the Abyss for 1,000 Years

• Satan is temporarily imprisoned, unable to deceive the nations during the millennium.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:1-3
“...And he laid hold on the dragon... and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit...”
4. The Millennium – The Saints Reign with Christ (7th day Sabbath)

• The righteous are with Christ; the earth lies desolate.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:4
“...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Jeremiah 4:23-26 (symbolic description of a desolate earth during the millennium)
5.a. Satan Is Loosed After the 1,000 Years

• Satan is released and gathers the wicked for one final rebellion.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:7-9
“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed... to deceive the nations... they went up... and compassed the camp of the saints...”
5.b. Satan Is Destroyed in the Lake of Fire

• After his final rebellion, Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Key verse:

Revelation 20:10
“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...”
5.c. The Second Resurrection – The Wicked Dead Are Raised for Judgment

• All the unrighteous dead are resurrected to face final judgment.

Key verse:

Revelation 20:5
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...”
6. The Great White Throne Judgment

• The final judgment of the wicked before eternal destruction.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:11-15
“And I saw a great white throne... and the dead were judged... and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
7. A New Heaven and a New Earth

• After sin and death are destroyed, God creates a new, eternal home for the redeemed.

Key verses:

Revelation 21:1-4
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth... and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes...”

 

[Marty fox]

God gives them the limitations of what they are able to do, but it's not as if they are doing something they don't want to do (torment people). Satan would certainly want to be involved in that. But, believe what you want. Your preterist beliefs dictate how you interpret Revelation 9 and I think it's sad.

O course they want to do it I’m not disputing that but they can only do what they are able to do and they do it for Gods purpose

Revelation 17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

What is sad about my view I don’t understand what you mean?

 

[covenantee]

So what are your preachers that push that false theory of Amillennialism involved in? Are they members of occult fraternities like the Masonic Lodge, or Rosicrucians, etc.? I know of pastors who preach man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory that are high level Masons, members of the occult Masonic fraternity.

It's those occult fraternities that are behind today's setting up of a one-world 'beast' kingdom in preparation for Lucifer's coming to reign over it. The high Mason which they recognize as one of their greats, Albert Pike, even said they are preparing the world for the perfect worship of the Light of Lucifer. Lower Masons don't have a clue that's what they are involved in, but the higher level Masons well know about it and agree with that plan for the whole world. This is why the Masonic Lodge has lodges in just about every nation on earth, and recognizes all... religions as being equal, which is a mockery against Christ Jesus.

Do you call your Lodge leader by the title of 'Worshipful Master'?

Only Lord Jesus Christ is man's Worshipful Master. No man is to be worshiped, only GOD is to be worshiped, and that means through His Son Jesus Christ, our ONLY Mediator to The Father.

All of those things is what their design of Amillennial doctrine is designed to do, to create a one-world beast kingdom at the end of this world. That is why that false theory has to deny Christ's future "thousand years" reign of the future that only begins on the day of His future 2nd coming. Lucifer instead, and his servants that run today's occult fraternities, want to reign over the earth NOW.

The Reformers were all amils.

Therefore, you would identify them all as occultists, and the Reformation as occultic.

Therefore, Martin Luther was an occultist.

Therefore John Wycliffe, who authored the first complete English Bible translation, was an occultist, and his translation was occultic.

What other gems of stupidity do you have for us?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

O course they want to do it I’m not disputing that but they can only do what they are able to do and they do it for Gods purpose

Revelation 17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

What is sad about my view I don’t understand what you mean?

I said what's sad about it. It is dictated by your preterist beliefs. You can't allow for Revelation 9 to be referring to the loosing of Satan because your preterist beliefs don't allow Revelation 9 to have the same timing as the loosing of Satan after the thousand years. I assume you see Revelation 9 as relating to 70 AD somehow?

 

[Davidpt]

Because only the locus are called out and allowed to come out and only for a purpose. Remember the bottomless pit is actually a spiritual condition and not a literal place

Why can't it be a literal place that literally imprisons spirit beings? Maybe the LOF isn't a literal place, either? Maybe it too is just a spiritual condition? In Revelation 20 both the pit and LOF have the following in common, meaning what I have underlined in each.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Which then begs the question, how does one get cast into a spiritual condition? What is that supposed to look like? What do you assume it looks like per the latter two involving being cast into the LOF? Per the latter two do you envision anyone literally being cast into some literal place? If a literal place is meant, to be cast into obviously means someone physically throws them in, since it is highly unlikely that they just jump into there on their own.

 

[CTK]

Charlie, this view does not address the inconsistencies and even contradictions a literal one thousand years of time creates. How can the same thousand years be both past and future and still be literally one thousand years?

Part 1

My View: The repeated reference to "a thousand years" (six times in Revelation 20) indicates a literal time period. John uses clear chronological language, describing a literal sequence of events, including Satan’s binding, resurrection of the righteous, reign of the saints, and eventual judgment.


Charlie, this view does not address the inconsistencies and even contradictions a literal one thousand years of time creates. How can the same thousand years be both past and future and still be literally one thousand years?

I don’t think either of us agree or contend there are two 1000 year periods to be addressed. Since my view is an end time event, you must believe it is an earlier (non- end time event). But everything in Revelation is pointing to the end of time that must take place. Daniel spoke of His first coming while Revelation begins after the cross - starts with the 7 churches that were established by Christ at His first coming. It moves forward….



Some translations do cause apparent contradiction by speaking in a way that leads us to believe the martyred saints must be made physically alive AGAIN to live and reign with Christ. So that there are no inconsistencies or contradictions forced into the Word of God, how do you reconcile saints having to come to life again with the FACT that Christ tells us that "whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die"?

Well, I don’t believe you and I have had this discussion. Apparently, there is a very significant difference between us regarding what happens to us after we die. And I think I am beginning to see just how “a” response to a particular question can have when it is connected to so many other interpretations that rely on it. In this case, you are correct to bring up the “dead” because you believe there cannot be a situation where they will be made physically alive again… And I agree, but this means we have another disagreement about that particular subject.

In my interpretations, the saints are not made alive again. If you look at the timeline I posted you will see the saints that died were resurrected (once) to be with the Lord forever more. So, those in Christ that have died before His return will be resurrected to be with Him, and then, those alive in Christ at His return will join them in the air to be with Him forever.

Thus, there is only one group remaining that He must address - and that will take place AFTER the 1000 years. All of those who rejected Christ will be resurrected to be judged and throw into the LOF.



One translation that eliminates this error KJB shows us that physical death cannot take away the eternal life we received from Christ the moment we heard the gospel and by grace through faith believed in Christ. In this chapter of Revelation, John proves that not even martyrdom can take away the everlasting/eternal life we spiritually received the moment we believed. John writes only that he saw ALIVE souls that had been martyred for their faith. John is showing us the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God in heaven, which is where believers, as living souls go to be with the Lord when we have breathed our last.

John is being allowed to see the outcome of those who had believed in Christ. The visions you are referring to represent those things that will be… there are no saints or peoples in heaven before this time (and I am not able to answer questions about Moses or Elisha).



Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Yes, this is exactly what I just mentioned…. God is revealing to us all the events that will take place … none of which has happened yet. He begins with the 7 churches as if they too happened… for they represent not only the 7 literal churches at John’s time, but they will exist during the next 2000 years. He gives us His vision or knowledge of what will happen to both those who accept Him and those who reject Him.


Paul longed to be with the Lord and was more than willing to physically die, knowing that death could only kill his mortal body, but it could not keep his spirit from returning to the Lord in heaven a living soul.

Not sure I understand all that you might be saying here, but the first part I certainly agree with. Again, the second comment must speak to another interpretations we have not had - what happens after death. For me, there is only one outcome after we die - we go to our grave awaiting God’s call to be resurrected - to be with Him or to be judged and dammed. There is nothing that moves on after we die. The “soul” is constructed of two parts - A + B = C, where,

A = earth.
B = God’s spirit that He breathed into Adam,
C = a “living soul”

Thus, God made us into a living soul. When Adam sinned, His “spirit” (not Holy Spirit) had to return back to God since His holiness / spirit cannot exist with sin. After Adam sinned, he did not physically die, but he did “spiritually.” He no longer had God’s “spirit” within Him and God is the only One who has that “spirit / holiness” to give. It was always His holiness / spirit - Adam was the recipient of it and no “spirit / holiness” of his own. Now, Adam became a “living being.”

Consequently, this must seriously depart from your beliefs and I believe I can see how / why my comments / interpretations cannot be accepted by you just as my coming to realize why my interpretations seem so foreign to you.



As I've already explained those who physically die in faith do not come "to life and reign with Him for 1,000 years."

I apologize but I do not have a good understanding of your view on this…again, I do not have a good understanding of all of the interpretations / beliefs you bring forward to Revelation.



For us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in heaven.

I would respectfully ask you to review this phrase again. This had got to be THE most misinterpreted phrase in the Scriptures. Everyone uses it the same way you do….

2 Corinth 5: 6-8
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Everyone forgets to consider the word “rather.” We would RATHER bee with the Lord and absent from the body. We would certainly be willing to leave this physical earth / existence and be with the Lord if we had the choice. But we are NOT with the Lord after we die… that only comes when He calls us out of the grave at the end of time. So, I can see how this would also contribute to your different interpretations in Revelation.



That's why Christ tells us that we need have no fear of those who kill our physical body, for they have no power to kill our living soul. After death the spirit of all who die in faith returns to God ALIVE. Unlike the spirit of all who physically die in unbelief whose spirit returns to God in darkness and silence.

Again, I agree with the first part but we do not have a “spirit” that moves on…. The purpose of God’s plan of salvation is for Him to design a plan that will once again allow Him to restore the “spirit / holiness” He imparted to Adam back into us. We cannot be in His presence without it and He is the only One who can give us that “spirit / holiness” - and it is HIS to give based on our choice of accepting His Messiah as our savior and Lord.

 

[CTK]

Charlie, this view does not address the inconsistencies and even contradictions a literal one thousand years of time creates. How can the same thousand years be both past and future and still be literally one thousand years?

Part 2

You assume but fail to prove!

I certainly can understand this comment now that I have learned some of your beliefs about what happens after death, etc. It is not something for me to have to prove… because neither of us can… we just have very different interpretations of the Scriptures. Apples and oranges. There is no way you can accept my interpretations of Revelation unless you accept my interpretations of life after death and so many other things. And the same goes for me…. There is no way you can see my interpretations fitting in with yours….



Now, since the first advent of Christ is the time, symbolically a thousand years, when man MUST hear the Word of God and believe on His Son to have everlasting life, passing from death to life. This is when we hear and believe and spiritually enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. This hour began for all of mankind, and even NOW is, when the spiritually dead, not the physically dead, MUST hear the voice of Christ that they shall spiritually live.

The dead know nothing!



John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Lovely verse and of course, we agree.



There is an end for this hour that NOW is for spiritually hearing and believing for life. It shall be the hour that is coming when ALL they physically dead in the graves shall hear Christ's voice and ALL of the physically dead shall come forth to resurrection life, or resurrection of damnation.

Yes, an hour will indeed come when God determines the end and He will call out all from the grave…. That is where we ALL will be (except those that are alive at His return). First, He calls out those who accepted Him and brings those who are still alive to be with Him in the air. They will be with Him forever. The dead who rejected Christ will not spent the Sabbath - the 1000 years with Him but will be resurrected after that time to be judged.



John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again, it is important to consider the translation you're using because Bible versions often bring certain biases into the translations. I am confident the KJV has properly translated vs 4 because the translators have reconciled the FACT taught throughout Scripture that gives faithful saints full assurance that the life we receive in Christ is eternal and death of our body cannot take away the eternal life we are promised when we are born again.

Well, you won’t get an argument from me on this! I totally agree. But here in John, he is not going into details like Revelation on the timing between the two groups that are separated by the 1000 years. God is certainly not allowing those who rejected Him to spend the 1000 year Sabbath with Him.







Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Again, it is important to consider the translation you're using because Bible versions often bring certain biases into the translations. I am confident the KJV has properly translated vs 4 because the translators have reconciled the FACT taught throughout Scripture that gives faithful saints full assurance that the life we receive in Christ is eternal and death of our body cannot take away the eternal life we are promised when we are born again.

Absolutely agree. Those in Christ will / may experience a “first death” but they will have no part in the second death. They will be resurrected at His return to be with Him forever.




Yes, during this period of time, symbolized a thousand years faithful saints have both lived and reigned with Christ not only while physically alive, but also after physical death. During the same period of time symbolized a thousand years there shall also be others called blessed and holy, having part in the first resurrection that overcome the second death who "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Our living and reigning with Christ begin with spiritual birth from above, and does not end when our body breathes its last. For the life we receive through Christ when we have been born again is FOREVER!

Well, I don’t believe this at all.



Do you NOT believe that Christ came with the Kingdom of God? Are you looking only for a literal/physical Kingdom of God to come to this earth and therefore fail to realize the Kingdom Christ came to earth with is NOT, and shall NEVER be a physical Kingdom on this earth?

No, Jesus came to establish His kingdom on earth, spiritually, not physically.



The Bible nowhere speaks of two separate physical resurrection events! The Bible clearly shows us that ALL of the physically dead shall be resurrected (bodily) on the last day. Scripture speaks of the first resurrection that refers to the resurrection of Christ being the first to be raised physically from the dead to never die again. The Bible also speaks of the general resurrection of ALL who have died being bodily resurrected to life or condemnation in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

I don’t believe this is so. There is a resurrection for those who have accepted Jesus and they will be with Him forever.
There is nothing about a “general” resurrection. There is a “second” resurrection for those that rejected Him. Thus, we who believe in Him have no part in the “second” resurrection.



Prove what you allege without forcing inconsistencies and contradictions into the Word of God!

I am not forcing inconsistences or contradictions. We have the exact same Scriptures but we interpret them quite differently.






Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Agree, He is the first fruits.




Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Agree entirely.




1 Peter 1:3-4 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Agree entirely!



Revelation 1:5-6 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Agree entirely!

No, my understanding places the judgment after TIME that is symbolized a/the thousand years, and Satan's little season after this time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God is fulfilled.

Agree! After the 1000 years, God will impose judgement on all those who rejected Him. He will call them out of the grave and judge them and throw all into the LOF.

 

[Davidpt]

The Old Testament repeatley calls satan the destroyer and abaddon means destroyer and satan is the king

We know that satan is put in the bottles pit don’t we?

Exodus 12:21 ¶Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Does this mean you think this is meaning satan? Why would satan want to smite the Egyptians? The Egyptians would be doing his bidding. Why would satan want to throw a monkey wrench into that?


And yes, satan does get cast into the bottomless pit. What's in question is not, does he get cast into the bp, but when does he get cast in?

 

[ewq1938]

Why can't it be a literal place that literally imprisons spirit beings?

Yes. A place can be literal and spiritual, like heaven. In Heaven is a literal city, and literal throne and a literal person (Jesus) yet it is also considered a spiritual place. If the pit were simply a spiritual condition and not a place, no need for an angel with a chain and a key to come to the Earth to place satan inside this non-place. It's obviously a real place and located somewhere in the Earth, which is a real place iotself being a solid planet of dirt and rocks etc.

Which then begs the question, how does one get cast into a spiritual condition?

Amill. "Well, a spiritual condition threw more spiritual conditions into...you guessed it, into a spiritual condition, for a thousand years which obviously is another way to say eternity. God has existed for a thousand years as well. :)

 

[Marty fox]

I said what's sad about it. It is dictated by your preterist beliefs. You can't allow for Revelation 9 to be referring to the loosing of Satan because your preterist beliefs don't allow Revelation 9 to have the same timing as the loosing of Satan after the thousand years. I assume you see Revelation 9 as relating to 70 AD somehow?

Read Joel chapter 2 and also acts chapter 2 and see what Joel describes coming against Jerusalem and the what Peter says the days he was living in was

 

[Marty fox]

Why can't it be a literal place that literally imprisons spirit beings? Maybe the LOF isn't a literal place, either? Maybe it too is just a spiritual condition? In Revelation 20 both the pit and LOF have the following in common, meaning what I have underlined in each.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Which then begs the question, how does one get cast into a spiritual condition? What is that supposed to look like? What do you assume it looks like per the latter two involving being cast into the LOF? Per the latter two do you envision anyone literally being cast into some literal place? If a literal place is meant, to be cast into obviously means someone physically throws them in, since it is highly unlikely that they just jump into there on their own.

If it’s literal then how can you have a bottomless pit? Obviously it’s symbolic for something

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read Joel chapter 2 and also acts chapter 2 and see what Joel describes coming against Jerusalem and the what Peter says the days he was living in was

Peter indicated that he was living in the last days and the last days are still going on now since they represent the time period during which people call on the name of the Lord and are saved and have the Holy Spirit poured out on them (Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:16-21). The last days will end when Jesus comes as it represents the time during which people scoff at the promise of His second coming (2 Peter 3:3-4). So, I'm not seeing your point here.