The Lord will fight for Israel and Jerusalem; Zech. 12

[IndianaRob]

No. Look at Romans 11 carefully. It's all about salvation. So, the fullness of the Gentiles relates to the time when every Gentile who will ever be saved has been saved.

I see nothing in Romans that contradicts "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Can you elaborate on your position? I'm guessing its the "all Israel shall be saved" part but I'm not sure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see nothing in Romans that contradicts "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Can you elaborate on your position? I'm guessing its the "all Israel shall be saved" part but I'm not sure.

You said:

I'm pretty sure the fulness of the Gentiles was when God was done using the gentiles to judge Israel.

What is this based on? We're talking about Romans 11:25 here, so that's why I pointed out that Romans 11 is about salvation. What does God using the Gentiles to judge Israel have to do with salvation? Throughout Romans 11 Paul is talking about the salvation of Israelites with the rest being blinded and that about Gentiles being saved and grafted in with Israelite believers and such. So, it should be clear that Romans 11:25 also relates to salvation. Understand? What you said has nothing to do with salvation and nothing to do with the context of what Paul was talking about in Romans 11.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Yet, you are doing nothing to refute what I said. I can't take your comment seriously unless you actually specifically respond to what I said. Can you please address what I said in my post specifically instead of ignoring it all while trying to change the focus to a different verse? Is the context of the entire chapter determined by one verse? If so, I could claim that it's all about people believing in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit since that is what Zechariah 14:8 is about which can be seen by comparing it to John 7:37-39.

But, we can't determine the context of the entire chapter based on only one verse. So, please address what I said about several of the verses in Zechariah 14. Once you do that then I will comment on what you said in this post. I'm not interested in a one way discussion where I'm the only one addressing the other's points and answering the other's questions.

One thing I found out when doing construction, is that if you start out in error you will also end up in error. I pointed out the first error. If I were to comment on every error I see in these forums, there would not be enough time in the day.

So I pick and choose the errors I want to address.

 

[rwb]

On the last day of the feast of tabernacles long ago, Jesus said this:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is what Zechariah 14:8 is about. You need to learn to use the NT to shine light on the OT prophecies for you. You also should be careful about interpreting things too literally. The entire book of Zechariah is a mix of literal and symbolic text, so you should not assume that it's all literal.


Already true.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who IS the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.


There are a couple major problems with seeing a future fulfillment of what is described here.

First, it's talking about being required to go up to Jerusalem to worship God.

That contradicts this:

John 4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

To think that what Jesus said here will one day no longer be true makes no sense. It will always be true from now into eternity.

Another problem with seeing this as having a future fulfillment is the mention of the requirement to keep the feast of tabernacles and the reference to the "pots" and such. Taken literally and as referring to the future, that would mean animal sacrifices and offerings would be reinstated because animal sacrifices and offerings were required during the keeping of the feast of tabernacles.

But, that would contradict this:

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This passage indicates that the old covenant animal sacrifices performed as a requirement of the law of Moses would result in "a remembrance again made of sins every year". Those sacrifices, of course, could not take away sins. God no longer wanted those sacrifices and took no pleasure in them. So, He sent His Son Jesus who came and sacrificed Himself to take away the first (old covenant) in order to "establish the second" (new covenant). And He did that "once for all". Clearly, there would never be any need or desire for animal sacrifices again because of Christ's "once for all" sacrifice. So, to think that animal sacrifices would be reinstated again in the future contradicts scripture like this and would be a huge insult to what Christ accomplished on the cross when He did away with the old covenant animal sacrifices.

Most excellent biblical reply! Looking for literal/physical fulfillment of prophecies of Old is one reason the Jews rejected their Messiah when He came.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So, the fullness of the Gentiles relates to the time when every Gentile who will ever be saved has been saved.

I disagree, because both Jews and Gentiles can come to repentance up until the last day.

The fulness of Gentiles has to do with the time when the transgressors are come to fullness.

Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

[rwb]

I think that blindness only happened to those Jews alive up until AD 70 when the fullness of the gentiles came in.

The blindness in part to the Jews was seen in the first century AD, and to this day there is still a blindness in part. Never of the whole Jewish people, because many of them, like many Gentiles believe according to grace through faith. The blindness in part is NOT limited to only Jews in unbelief. After all, not every Gentile will continue in unbelief, only in part. As with the Jews, so too it is with all of humanity. Only believers shall be saved, the rest of humanity remaining in unbelief and of their father the devil, will die in their sins. Paul never says that one day the blindness in part toward the Jews will be lifted that all Israel may be saved. He says the blindness in part shall continue UNTIL the fullness of Gentiles come in. Then it will be too late, because that is when the last trumpet shall sound that time given this earth whereby man might be saved, shall be no longer. It is in this manner, with Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together that "all Israel shall be saved." All Israel of God, not an ethnic people but all people who believe in Christ for eternal life.

 

[IndianaRob]

You said:


What is this based on? We're talking about Romans 11:25 here, so that's why I pointed out that Romans 11 is about salvation. What does God using the Gentiles to judge Israel have to do with salvation? Throughout Romans 11 Paul is talking about the salvation of Israelites with the rest being blinded and that about Gentiles being saved and grafted in with Israelite believers and such. So, it should be clear that Romans 11:25 also relates to salvation. Understand? What you said has nothing to do with salvation and nothing to do with the context of what Paul was talking about in Romans 11.

My bad, I apologize for the confusion.

 

[IndianaRob]

The blindness in part to the Jews was seen in the first century AD, and to this day there is still a blindness in part. Never of the whole Jewish people, because many of them, like many Gentiles believe according to grace through faith. The blindness in part is NOT limited to only Jews in unbelief. After all, not every Gentile will continue in unbelief, only in part. As with the Jews, so too it is with all of humanity. Only believers shall be saved, the rest of humanity remaining in unbelief and of their father the devil, will die in their sins. Paul never says that one day the blindness in part toward the Jews will be lifted that all Israel may be saved. He says the blindness in part shall continue UNTIL the fullness of Gentiles come in. Then it will be too late, because that is when the last trumpet shall sound that time given this earth whereby man might be saved, shall be no longer. It is in this manner, with Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together that "all Israel shall be saved." All Israel of God, not an ethnic people but all people who believe in Christ for eternal life.

I think we agree accept for what "until the fullness of the Gentiles come in" means. My belief is that the fullness of the Gentiles was the point God was finished using the Gentiles to destroy the nation of Israel.

 

[rwb]

One thing I found out when doing construction, is that if you start out in error you will also end up in error. I pointed out the first error. If I were to comment on every error I see in these forums, there would not be enough time in the day.

So I pick and choose the errors I want to address.

If you want to be taken as a serious student of the Word of God, you need to address the inconsistencies and or contradictions that have been shown by using the Bible to prove your doctrine. What we often find in those holding to the doctrine of premillennialism is they simply ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions shown or attempt to change the direction of the discussion.

 

[rwb]

I disagree, because both Jews and Gentiles can come to repentance up until the last day.

The fulness of Gentiles has to do with the time when the transgressors are come to fullness.

Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Of course this is true, and I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise.

The Jews in the first century AD did not believe that God would save Gentiles too. They believed themselves alone to be the elect of God and they alone to inherit salvation because they were the physical offspring (seeds) of Abraham. Paul tells them that even only part of those who are of the offspring of Abraham (elect remnant) have been saved. The rest are the part in unbelief. According to Paul there will be a part of the offspring of Abraham according to the flesh who will remain in unbelief until the very end of time. And after the last Gentile to be saved (elect according to grace through faith) all Israel shall be saved. To understand what Paul means when he speaks of salvation for ALL Israel, we have to remember that Paul has already said regarding ethnic Israel as a whole. Though they be many, only few shall be saved. It is Paul's desire that some of these kinsmen according to the flesh might come away from the part in unbelief and be saved.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

If you want to be taken as a serious student of the Word of God, you need to address the inconsistencies and or contradictions that have been shown by using the Bible to prove your doctrine. What we often find in those holding to the doctrine of premillennialism is they simply ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions shown or attempt to change the direction of the discussion.

I’m not seeking the honor of men. And I have proved the contradictions of others by the words of God. Sometimes I ignore people who have no idea what they are talking about because I see no point in beating a dead horse.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Of course this is true, and I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise.

Then you must have missed the comment that I was responding to.;)

 

[rwb]

I think we agree accept for what "until the fullness of the Gentiles come in" means. My belief is that the fullness of the Gentiles was the point God was finished using the Gentiles to destroy the nation of Israel.

But in 70 AD neither Gentiles in unbelief, nor Gentiles of faith have achieved the fullness of the Gentiles. To this day Gentile nations are still seeking to destroy Israel. Both physically and spiritually.

Paul is here speaking of that which was a mystery before the first coming of Christ. That mystery Paul revealed to the Jews is that Gentiles too would be saved. Salvation and the Kingdom of God is not limited to only the biological seeds of Abraham, as the first century Jews believed.

When Paul was given to understand the mystery regarding salvation for Gentiles of faith with Jews of faith, God called him to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. Paul tells us that when every Gentile to be saved has come into the Kingdom of God by grace through faith, together with Jews of faith ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED! Not a natural people, but ALL people of faith who are called "Israel of God." It is in this manner that Israel of faith shall be saved, and once the last one to be saved among the Gentile nations, then shall come the end when the last trumpet sounds and time given this earth for mankind to turn to Christ for salvation shall be no longer. John writes in the Revelation the sounding of the seventh trumpet signals the mystery of God is finished.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:3-6 (KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[rwb]

I’m not seeking the honor of men. And I have proved the contradictions of others by the words of God. Sometimes I ignore people who have no idea what they are talking about because I see no point in beating a dead horse.

Can you point out where you have proven the Amils replying to you that you have proven have contradicted the Word of God?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Can you point out where you have proven the Amils replying to you that you have proven have contradicted the Word of God?

What’s a Amil?

 

[rwb]

What’s a Amil?

It's hard to explain that which is called Amil doctrine in few words. Basically, the biblical doctrine of Amil understands time as represented in NT Scripture "a thousand years" began with the first advent of Christ, and will end when the last trumpet sounds, when this time shall be no longer. Amil denies that a thousand years equates to ONE thousand years, as premillennialists believe.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It's hard to explain that which is called Amil doctrine in few words. Basically, the biblical doctrine of Amil understands time as represented in NT Scripture "a thousand years" began with the first advent of Christ, and will end when the last trumpet sounds, when this time shall be no longer. Amil denies that a thousand years equates to ONE thousand years, as premillennialists believe.

I would say that Amil doctrine is in error then because the thousand year reign of Christ does not start until AFTER the resurrection and judgement at the last day.

Revelation 5:9-10

King James Version

​

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:4-6

King James Version

​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

I would say that Amil doctrine is in error then because the thousand year reign of Christ does not start until AFTER the resurrection and judgement at the last day.

It is through the first advent of Christ that this time likened "a thousand years" began. The first resurrection and judgement came during the first century AD when there was judgement of this world and the cross and resurrection of Christ. This is what marks the beginning of "a thousand years" when Christ ascended to heaven and received everlasting dominion, and a Kingdom that would never be destroyed.

John 12:31-33 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ for He is the resurrection and the life. And whosoever partakes of Him have part in the first resurrection. That's how John can write of seeing martyred souls in heaven who had part in the first resurrection before they were killed as having lived and reigned with Christ "a thousand years." They were faithful unto death during this time John writes "a thousand years."

 

[rwb]

Revelation 5:9-10​

King James Version​

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:4-6​

King James Version​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Faithful saints, all who have part in the first resurrection before they die shall reign with Christ not only now during this time symbolized a thousand years, but also on the new earth. Just as John tells us.

How can the martyred souls have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before they were martyred, and other faithful saints who are not among the martyred also reign with Christ a thousand years if a thousand years are literally one thousand years that will not come to pass until after the resurrection and judgment?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It is through the first advent of Christ that this time likened "a thousand years" began. The first resurrection and judgement came during the first century AD when there was judgement of this world and the cross and resurrection of Christ. This is what marks the beginning of "a thousand years" when Christ ascended to heaven and received everlasting dominion, and a Kingdom that would never be destroyed.

John 12:31-33 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ for He is the resurrection and the life. And whosoever partakes of Him have part in the first resurrection. That's how John can write of seeing martyred souls in heaven who had part in the first resurrection before they were killed as having lived and reigned with Christ "a thousand years." They were faithful unto death during this time John writes "a thousand years."

This prophecy is about the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead and living in Christ at the last day. You are in ERROR.

Revelation 20:4-6

King James Version
​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years