The likeness of God on his throne

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus said that Abraham had seen Him in his day.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So men had seen God face to face in the Old Testament. That was the Son of God since it was written that no men had seen the Father at any time.

He appeared to Abraham.

Genesis 12:7And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

He appeared to Isaac.

Genesis 26:24 And the Lord appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

He appeared unto Jacob.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

So when we were created in His image. the Son of God had an image and so did the Father per this verse.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

His incarnation was stepping down from His celestial image in taking a fashion of terrestrial men so He could give His life as a ransom for many.

God "appeared" to people i the OT as a "Theophany".

A Theophany is a visible manifestation of God. The Burning Bush, the Visitors who came to Abraham (Gen 18), the visions of Isaiah and Ezekiel, the Pillar of fire in the desert - these are ALL Theophanies.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

God "appeared" to people i the OT as a "Theophany".

A Theophany is a visible manifestation of God. The Burning Bush, the Visitors who came to Abraham (Gen 18), the visions of Isaiah and Ezekiel, the Pillar of fire in the desert - these are ALL Theophanies.

That visible manifestation ate and drank with Abraham in Genesis 18th chapter.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That visible manifestation ate and drank with Abraham in Genesis 18th chapter.

MANIFESTATION is the operative word here.
God cloaked Himself in flesh to visit Abraham.

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24) and spirit does NOT have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

MANIFESTATION is the operative word here.
God cloaked Himself in flesh to visit Abraham.

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24) and spirit does NOT have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

If you read that verse in context for what Jesus was saying to the Samaritan woman at the well whom had asked Him where to worship God at; the mountains or in Jerusalem, then He may help you to see that He was saying that God is not confined to a place of worship on earth and those who come to Him to worship Him can do so anywhere on earth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you read that verse in context for what Jesus was saying to the Samaritan woman at the well whom had asked Him where to worship God at; the mountains or in Jerusalem, then He may help you to see that He was saying that God is not confined to a place of worship on earth and those who come to Him to worship Him can do so anywhere on earth.

I totally agree.
HOWEVER, Jesus does say that God is Spirit - and He was telling the truth.

 

[Stranger]

Nobody is "required" to partake in the Eucharist every time they go to Mass.
Nobody is"required" to partake of BOTH species.

Not sure why you're unable to absorb this as I have explained it several times already.

No, you have been busy dodging.

What is the purpose of the Mass?

What is 'species' as you call it?

Does the Eucharist involve both the bread/Body and wine/Blood? Do the laity drink the wine/blood?

Stranger

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I totally agree.
HOWEVER, Jesus does say that God is Spirit - and He was telling the truth.

According to Genesis 1:26 when man was requested to be created in Their image and then when performed the act, God created man in His image.

The Son has an image and so does the Father from which man was created in His image shred by the Father & the Son in a terrestrial fashion rather than a celestial one.

So God is a Spirit; as not confined to a worship place; Jesus did not say that God is Spirit as if that is all that the Father is.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

By worshiping Him IN spirit and IN truth enables believers to come to God the Father anywhere to worship Him, but that is not saying He does not have an image since man was also fashioned after His image and not just the Son's in creation week.

 

[BreadOfLife]

According to Genesis 1:26 when man was requested to be created in Their image and then when performed the act, God created man in His image.

The Son has an image and so does the Father from which man was created in His image shred by the Father & the Son in a terrestrial fashion rather than a celestial one.

So God is a Spirit; as not confined to a worship place; Jesus did not say that God is Spirit as if that is all that the Father is.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

By worshiping Him IN spirit and IN truth enables believers to come to God the Father anywhere to worship Him, but that is not saying He does not have an image since man was also fashioned after His image and not just the Son's in creation week.

There mere fact that men and women are built differently should have been your first clue that it is not talking about God's "shape".

As I stated earlier - Man is different from ALL of God's other creatures in that, we are able to reason and have a free will. We are not ruled by instinct like the animals. This is the "image" of God by which we were created in.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you have been busy dodging.
What is the purpose of the Mass?
What is 'species' as you call it?
Does the Eucharist involve both the bread/Body and wine/Blood? Do the laity drink the wine/blood?
Stranger

I haven't "dodged" anything. I answered your question.
To answer your new questions . . .

The purpose of the Mass is to offer the Eternal Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.
The "species" is simply referring to the Body or the Blood.
BOTH the Body AND the Blood are the Eucharist - together and separately. They both contain the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anything else?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

There mere fact that men and women are built differently should have been your first clue that it is not talking about God's "shape".

As I stated earlier - Man is different from ALL of God's other creatures in that, we are able to reason and have a free will. We are not ruled by instinct like the animals. This is the "image" of God by which we were created in.

I leave you brother to your discussion as it is apparent that I am of no use to Him in ministering to you when your signature pretty much says what you are all about.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I leave you brother to your discussion as it is apparent that I am of no use to Him in ministering to you when your signature pretty much says what you are all about.

Believe me - I WISH is wasn't necessary . . .

 

[Stranger]

I haven't "dodged" anything. I answered your question.
To answer your new questions . . .

The purpose of the Mass is to offer the Eternal Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.
The "species" is simply referring to the Body or the Blood.
BOTH the Body AND the Blood are the Eucharist - together and separately. They both contain the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anything else?

So, what you are saying is the reason the laity only receives the bread/Body, is that the wine/blood is present also when they do it.

And I guess that is per CCC #1390?

Where in Scripture does such an idea exist, that the Church can take only the bread and that covers it all?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

So, what you are saying is the reason the laity only receives the bread/Body, is that the wine/blood is present also when they do it.
And I guess that is per CCC #1390?
Where in Scripture does such an idea exist, that the Church can take only the bread and that covers it all?
Stranger

Right here:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, TELL THE CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

 

[Stranger]

Right here:

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, TELL THE CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

There is nothing said of the taking of the Lords Supper in these verses. So, again, where in Scripture does it say that taking the bread/Body means you take of the wine/Blood also?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is nothing said of the taking of the Lords Supper in these verses. So, again, where in Scripture does it say that taking the bread/Body means you take of the wine/Blood also?

Stranger

The verses I presented show the Church's Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER it ordains on earth shall also be ordained in Heaven. They also show that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL truth.
Finally - they show that whoever rejects these teachings reject Christ Himself and the One who sent Him.

These are guarantees from Jesus.

 

[Stranger]

The verses I presented show the Church's Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER it ordains on earth shall also be ordained in Heaven. They also show that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL truth.
Finally - they show that whoever rejects these teachings reject Christ Himself and the One who sent Him.

These are guarantees from Jesus.

So, Scripture says the wine and the bread are to be taken. The Roman Church says the bread is good enough, except of course the priests will take the wine.

Where in the Roman tradition does it say the bread is enough for the Roman Christians to have? Who and when was that decided?

Why would Roman tradition contradict the Scripture?

Stranger

 

[101G]

And if you check with the creation account, God the Father must also have an image for that request for man to be fashioned after.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

that's a good reply. not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the image was in heaven but not yet MANIFESTED. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come".

the word "figure" here is
G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck).
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
4. (figuratively) style or resemblance.
5. (specially) a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning).
[from G5180]
KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print

see definition #2 "STAMP". scripture, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".

here the Express Image is
G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
Compare: G1125, G1504

notice definition #3, there is your stamp or "image", it's in “character”, meaning it's the same person in G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') interior. and this person exterior morphe (mor-fee') was in flesh.

now I'm going to say something here, not to throw you off, but hopefully, edify. there are men in heaven but without blood. flesh and bone can inherit, but not flesh and blood. understand angels are called...called man. supportive scripture, Daniel 9:21 "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation".

Understand something. all time is ONE TIME for God. the image of man was already in God mind before he made the worlds. so in Genesis 1:26, God was speaking of himself diversified in flesh to come in OUR TIME.

PS the scripture you gave Philippians 2:56 is the key in answering your question.

be blessed.

PCY

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

that's a good reply. not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the image was in heaven but not yet MANIFESTED. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come".

the word "figure" here is
G5179 τύπος tupos (tï '-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck).
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar.
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue.
4. (figuratively) style or resemblance.
5. (specially) a sampler (“type”), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning).
[from G5180]
KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print

Romans 5:14 being figure of Him that was to come that is the incarnation of the Son of God Whom will give His life as a ransom for many.

see definition #2 "STAMP". scripture, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".

here the Express Image is
G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
Compare: G1125, G1504

The express image being the resurrected glorified image of the Son of God in His celestial body.

notice definition #3, there is your stamp or "image", it's in “character”, meaning it's the same person in G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') interior. and this person exterior morphe (mor-fee') was in flesh.

now I'm going to say something here, not to throw you off, but hopefully, edify. there are men in heaven but without blood. flesh and bone can inherit, but not flesh and blood. understand angels are called...called man. supportive scripture, Daniel 9:21 "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation".

Since angels do seem to appear as men like the two that went to Lot's house in Sodom, I can understand how they can be seen as men even though men do not fly as Gabriel did in the vision in Daniel 9:21. Obviously a celestial man as an angel and yet since our glorified resurrected state is supposed to be liken unto the angels and yet somehow made higher than the angels that we would judge them, then as celestial angel is to man appearing as the image of terrestrial man, so is the firstfruits of the resurrection would be to angels as seen by terrestrial men to be liken unto angels, but not because the firstfruits will be higher than the angels.

Understand something. all time is ONE TIME for God. the image of man was already in God mind before he made the worlds. so in Genesis 1:26, God was speaking of himself diversified in flesh to come in OUR TIME.

PS the scripture you gave Philippians 2:56 is the key in answering your question.

be blessed.

PCY

Since the Son of God was the God that men had seen face to face in the O.T. in His celestial state ( example Genesis 12:7 & 17:1 & 18th chapter to Abraham from which Jesus was talking about how Abraham had seen Him, and Genesis 26th chapter to Isaac and Genesis 32:24-30 to Jacob, then we can see what He had given up in becoming incarnated into that terrestrial state.

Philippians 2:5-6 does note that Jesus had to give up His celestial body to become incarnated into a terrestrial body to give His life as a ransom for many.

Seeing how the Son had a celestial image from which man was fashioned after, it is from that truth that I believe the Father has the same image of man from which we were created from.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So, Scripture says the wine and the bread are to be taken. The Roman Church says the bread is good enough, except of course the priests will take the wine.

Where in the Roman tradition does it say the bread is enough for the Roman Christians to have? Who and when was that decided?

Why would Roman tradition contradict the Scripture?

Stranger

I can't really answer those questions because I don't know what the "Roman Church" even is.
I don't know what "Roman traditions" are, either. As for "Roman Christians" - I can only assume you mean Christians that live in Rome.

Now - if you want to discuss the Sacred Traditions practiced by the Catholic Church - I would be MORE than willing to discuss them with you.

 

[Stranger]

I can't really answer those questions because I don't know what the "Roman Church" even is.
I don't know what "Roman traditions" are, either. As for "Roman Christians" - I can only assume you mean Christians that live in Rome.

Now - if you want to discuss the Sacred Traditions practiced by the Catholic Church - I would be MORE than willing to discuss them with you.

Yes you can answer. You just don't want to. You don't need to 'assume' that I mean Christians that live in Rome. You know what I mean. I have explained it to you that what you call the 'Catholic' Church is just the 'Roman' Church. You know what I mean when I say the Roman Church or Romanist. This makes you not just a 'wordsmity', it makes you an outright liar.

So, when did the churches supreme authority decide to go against Scripture and say the taking of the bread/Body of Christ also included the wine/Blood of Christ? Who, and where came up with it?

When you say you are 'more than willing' you again make yourself a liar. If you were more than willing you wouldn't be hiding as you do.

Stranger