The likeness of God on his throne

[Dcopymope]

It is stated numerous times that "God is an all consuming fire" and many believers will take that literally. But when Ezekiel describes his actual appearance as basically a consuming fire in the form of a man sitting on a throne, they will do a complete 180 and claim its not literal.

Which one is it, is God like an all consuming fire with a tangible form or not??

(Ezekiel 1:26-28) "¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. {27} And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. {28} As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."

(Hebrews 12:28-29) "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: {29} For our God is a consuming fire."

(Deuteronomy 4:23-24) "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. {24} For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."

(Deuteronomy 9:3) "Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee."

I see now that its his "appearance of a man" that people have a problem with. Ezekiel says this is the likeness of the glory of the LORD, whereas the "oracles" pretending to know more about the supernatural than what is written will claim otherwise. This looks to me like a another classic case of certain believers wanting to have their cake and eat it too. I'll take the word of God as the authority on this matter. I'll believe the Bible when it states we are made in his image. This is one of the few artists depictions of his vision that I have seen that actually got it right to any meaningful degree.

As opposed to the typical depiction of a white bearded guy.........

Or the white formless blob.........new ager's and gnostic's love this depiction

.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24).
"A spirit has NOT flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39).

Being made in His "image" does NOT mean that he has a humanlike form.
It means that we have a reasoning mind and intellect - unlike the animals.

It has NOTHING to do with our physical bodies . . .

 

[Dcopymope]

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24).
"A spirit has NOT flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39).

Being made in His "image" does NOT mean that he has a humanlike form.
It means that we have a reasoning mind and intellect - unlike the animals.

It has NOTHING to do with our physical bodies . . .

Never said God has a fleshly body like that of a human, only the form of one. There is a clear distinction made, but also a clear similarity made. His appearance is that of fire, but his form is that of a human, like his image bearers, as Ezekiel plainly reveals. Clearly, "after our likeness" wasn't just referring to intelligence.

 

[brakelite]

When God passed by Moses, saying that Moses could not look upon HIs face and live, He still had a hand to cover the face of Moses as He passed by, and Moses saw His back.
God is described as seated on a throne. I assume the normal understanding of 'seated' can be held here, and not move into the ridiculous to make God more or less than He himself describes. I have seen spirits. They do have the form of physical bodies. Jesus is the express image of the Father. He said to His disciples, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". I don't believe this is to be understood entirely as a spiritual or metaphorical sense.

 

[Dcopymope]

When God passed by Moses, saying that Moses could not look upon HIs face and live, He still had a hand to cover the face of Moses as He passed by, and Moses saw His back.
God is described as seated on a throne. I assume the normal understanding of 'seated' can be held here, and not move into the ridiculous to make God more or less than He himself describes. I have seen spirits. They do have the form of physical bodies. Jesus is the express image of the Father. He said to His disciples, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". I don't believe this is to be understood entirely as a spiritual or metaphorical sense.

Exactly, Jesus never gave us a reason to take that as just a metaphor. If scripture doesn't explain something as metaphorical or a parable, then there is no justification for us to believe it as such. Lets also not forget about what king of Babylon saw with his own two eyes. He literally witnessed the hand of God himself write on a wall, and this wasn't even a vision, neither was it ever explained as an allegory.

(Daniel 5) In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote..........

23and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.

Likewise, Ezekiel saw what he wrote and doesn't give a reason to believe otherwise. He says God is an all consuming fire in the appearence or shape of a man, and gives no further explaination to the contrary of it in any way being an allegory. Therefore, for us to claim otherwise is to pretend to know better than Gods prophets, and as a man of faith, I take exception to that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Never said God has a fleshly body like that of a human, only the form of one. There is a clear distinction made, but also a clear similarity made. His appearance is that of fire, but his form is that of a human, like his image bearers, as Ezekiel plainly reveals. Clearly, "after our likeness" wasn't just referring to intelligence.

Ezekiel - and other - spooke in anthropomorphisms. This is a word that means that humans give tangible, physical attributes to God because of our limited understanding of the spiritual realm.

There are other verses in Scripture that say God has "Wings" (Psalm 91:4) and "Nostrils" (Exod. 15:8).
They are note literal - but anthropomorphic.

 

[Dcopymope]

Ezekiel - and other - spooke in anthropomorphisms. This is a word that means that humans give tangible, physical attributes to God because of our limited understanding of the spiritual realm.

There are other verses in Scripture that say God has "Wings" (Psalm 91:4) and "Nostrils" (Exod. 15:8).
They are note literal - but anthropomorphic.

Well, David and Moses never states that Psalms 91:4 or Exodus 15:8 or any other place that mentions God having wings were ever meant to be descriptions of Gods likeness, so therefore I have no reason to take them literally. This is unlike Ezekiel where he plainly states his description is indeed Gods actual likeness. I don't have a reason to contradict a prophet of God claiming that he didn't really see what he himself plainly states he saw, because he simply does not give one. Its real simple for me, I don't have to make assumptions, because scripture confirms itself. The one liners people often cite as "evidence" of anthropomorphism have nothing to do with Ezekiel's vision.

 

[bbyrd009]

This is unlike Ezekiel where he plainly states his description is indeed Gods actual likeness.

he doesn't say that though, does he

I don't have a reason to contradict a prophet of God claiming that he didn't really see what he himself plainly states he saw

imo he does not say this either; he even identifies it as a "vision?"
you are making it into an eyewitness account?

Its real simple for me, I don't have to make assumptions

ha good one
i'm doing God's will too, so i get you

 

[brakelite]

Ezekiel - and other - spooke in anthropomorphisms. This is a word that means that humans give tangible, physical attributes to God because of our limited understanding of the spiritual realm.

There are other verses in Scripture that say God has "Wings" (Psalm 91:4) and "Nostrils" (Exod. 15:8).
They are note literal - but anthropomorphic.

Those expressions from men may certainly be anthropomorphic, just as you describe. But what about times where God, in HIs own words, describes Himself?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those expressions from men may certainly be anthropomorphic, just as you describe. But what about times where God, in HIs own words, describes Himself?

God is speaking to extremely limited, flawed human beings and, therefore, speaks in symbolic language throughout Scripture.

For example, God says, "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet" (Matt. 22:44).
As we know - God is omnipresent, so He doesn't have a right or a left side because He is EVERYWHERE.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, David and Moses never states that Psalms 91:4 or Exodus 15:8 or any other place that mentions God having wings were ever meant to be descriptions of Gods likeness, so therefore I have no reason to take them literally. This is unlike Ezekiel where he plainly states his description is indeed Gods actual likeness. I don't have a reason to contradict a prophet of God claiming that he didn't really see what he himself plainly states he saw, because he simply does not give one. Its real simple for me, I don't have to make assumptions, because scripture confirms itself. The one liners people often cite as "evidence" of anthropomorphism have nothing to do with Ezekiel's vision.

God is omnipresent spirit. He doesn't have a form because he is EVERYWHERE.
To take Ezekiel literally is really a beginner's blunder.

You can't understand God's Word if you can't understand this point . . .

 

[Dcopymope]

he doesn't say that though, does he

imo he does not say this either; he even identifies it as a "vision?"
you are making it into an eyewitness account?

If its not an eyewitness account, then "vision" or not, it cannot be trusted, and Ezekiel is a false prophet.

God is omnipresent spirit. He doesn't have a form because he is EVERYWHERE.
To take Ezekiel literally is really a beginner's blunder.

You can't understand God's Word if you can't understand this point . . .

God himself is not "omnipresent" because he has a tangible form which resides in heaven, Moses testifies to this himself after all.

(Numbers 12:7-8) "My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. {8} With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

But he is and can be "everywhere present" through the power of his "holy spirit". This is why there needs to be an understanding that the "Father", "son" and "holy ghost" are separate, yet all agree as one whole. There can be no true understanding of the nature of God without it. When scripture describes his "omnipresent" nature, it is referring to the holy spirit. When scripture refers to God himself, its always as a tangible form, in a tangible location, which is heaven. As seen below, Ezekiel describes God the exact same way throughout the book. The words in parenthesis are mine.

The Holy Spirit:

(Genesis 1:1-2) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. {2} And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

(Psalms 51:11) "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

(Psalms 104:30) "Thou sendest forth thy spirit (not himself), they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth."

(1 Corinthians 2:11-13) "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. {12} Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. {13} Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

(Job 26:13-14) "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. {14} Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?"

(Jeremiah 23:23-24) "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? {24} Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I (the Holy Spirit) fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."

(Psalms 139:7-12) "Whither shall I go from thy (holy) spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? {8} If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. {9} If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; {10} Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. {11} If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. {12} Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee."

The Holy Spirit are like the "eyes of the Lord":

(Zechariah 4:1-4) "And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, {2} And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: {3} And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. {4} So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?".....................

(Zechariah 4:8-10) "Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, {9} The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. {10} For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth."

(Revelation 4:5) "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

(Revelation 5:6) "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

God himself on his throne in heaven:

(Psalms 11:4) "The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD’S throne is in heaven: his eyes (holy spirit) behold , his eyelids try, the children of men."

(Isaiah 66:1) "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

(Psalms 33:13-14) "The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. {14} From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth."

(Psalms 2:1-4) "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? {2} The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, {3} Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. {4} He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision."

God himself departs the temple at Jerusalem:

(Ezekiel 10:1-4) "Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. {2} And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight. {3} Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. {4} Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD’S glory............"

(Ezekiel 10:18-19) "Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. {19} And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD’S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above..............."

(Ezekiel 11:22-23) "¶ Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. {23} And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city."

 

[BreadOfLife]

God himself is not "omnipresent" because he has a tangible form which resides in heaven, Moses testifies to this himself after all.
But he is and can be "everywhere present" through the power of his "holy spirit". This is why there needs to be an understanding that the "Father", "son" and "holy ghost" are separate, yet all agree as one whole. There can be no true understanding of the nature of God without it. When scripture describes his "omnipresent" nature, it is referring to the holy spirit. When scripture refers to God himself, its always as a tangible form, in a tangible location, which is heaven. As seen below, Ezekiel describes God the exact same way throughout the book. The words in parenthesis are mine.

What YOU are espousing id heresy and nothing less.
God is omnipresent - as the Scriptures inform us . . .

Jeremiah 23:23-24
"Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD. "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off?

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.

1 Kings 8:27
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

Psalm 139:7-10
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will lay hold of me.

The Holy Spirit:

The Holy Spirit are like the "eyes of the Lord":

God himself on his throne in heaven:

God himself departs the temple at Jerusalem:

These are ALL anthropomorphisms about God - not about him having a literal body.
God the SON has a body - but not God the Father or Holy spirit.

Don't tell me . . . you don't believe in the Trinity, DO you?

 

[Dcopymope]

What YOU are espousing id heresy and nothing less.
God is omnipresent - as the Scriptures inform us . . .

..........Heresy according to who? You and your Catholic doctrine? I never said God is not omnipresent, I define his omnipresence by and through the holy spirit, as scripture correctly informs us. That is how he can claim to dwell within all believers at once. It isn't done just by him, but through the holy spirit, the thing that he sent, and he didn't send himself.

These are ALL anthropomorphisms about God - not about him having a literal body.
God the SON has a body - but not God the Father or Holy spirit.

Don't tell me . . . you don't believe in the Trinity, DO you?

............They are anthropomorphic descriptions according to YOU, not according to scripture. Moses and Ezekiel know what they saw. They saw the glory of God, and it wasn't a formless blob either. And yes I believe the word of God when it plainly states there are three that bear record in heaven as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you actually cared to comprehend what I freaking wrote in my previous response, you would have seen it. Take the planks out of your eyes and maybe you would actually learn something. The trinity is the ONLY way the nature of God can be explained. And as scripture describes these three throughout the entirety of the Bible, The Father and the Son have a form, the holy spirit does not. The holy spirit is the "spirit of God" that moved upon the face of the deep in the creation account. The holy spirit symbolizes the seven lamps set before Gods throne. It is the power emanating from God, and it is by this power that he created the heavens and the earth, through his "word", Jesus.

(Job 26:11-14) "The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. {12} He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. {13} By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. {14} Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?"

 

[bbyrd009]

If its not an eyewitness account, then "vision" or not, it cannot be trusted, and Ezekiel is a false prophet.

i kind of understand why you say this, but imo it is acceptable and even advisable to consider that visions can relate spiritual truth without being literally real. Christ is portrayed as a Lion or a Lamb, but you don't discount these as lies or anything, right. "4" and "wheels in wheels" and etc all have symbolic meaning as well

 

[bbyrd009]

It is stated numerous times that "God is an all consuming fire" and many believers will take that literally. But when Ezekiel describes his actual appearance as basically a consuming fire in the form of a man sitting on a throne, they will do a complete 180 and claim its not literal.

Which one is it, is God like an all consuming fire with a tangible form or not?

do we have an intermediary with God or not?

 

[BreadOfLife]

..........Heresy according to who? You and your Catholic doctrine? I never said God is not omnipresent, I define his omnipresence by and through the holy spirit, as scripture correctly informs us. That is how he can claim to dwell within all believers at once. It isn't done just by him, but through the holy spirit, the thing that he sent, and he didn't send himself.

YOU define His omnipresence.??
Scripture already HAS. There is NO need for you to redefine what Scripture has already defined.

Your arrogance is astounding . . .

............They are anthropomorphic descriptions according to YOU, not according to scripture. Moses and Ezekiel know what they saw. They saw the glory of God, and it wasn't a formless blob either. And yes I believe the word of God when it plainly states there are three that bear record in heaven as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you actually cared to comprehend what I freaking wrote in my previous response, you would have seen it. Take the planks out of your eyes and maybe you would actually learn something. The trinity is the ONLY way the nature of God can be explained. And as scripture describes these three throughout the entirety of the Bible, The Father and the Son have a form, the holy spirit does not. The holy spirit is the "spirit of God" that moved upon the face of the deep in the creation account. The holy spirit symbolizes the seven lamps set before Gods throne. It is the power emanating from God, and it is by this power that he created the heavens and the earth, through his "word", Jesus.

No - they are anthropomorphisms - period.

God is not a Bird, but the following verses describe Him as having "Wings" (Deut. 32:11, Psalm 17:8, Psalm 91:4, Jer. 49:22).

God is not a Man and does not draw breath like a man - but Exod. 15:8 describes Him as having "Nostrils."
He doesn't have arms yet Matt. 22:44 and Heb. 1:13 describe Him as having a "Right Hand."

YOUR problem is that you don't understand Scripture and lean instead on your OWN understanding instead of trusting in God (Prov. 3:5-6).

 

[Dcopymope]

YOU define His omnipresence.??
Scripture already HAS. There is NO need for you to redefine what Scripture has already defined.

.....The scripture defines his omnipresence, not me, and he is everywhere present by his holy spirit, his "eyes" as the prophet Zechariah plainly stated. It is by his "eyes", the third part of his being that he see's all, knows all, and is everywhere present.

Your arrogance is astounding . . .

.....I find your lack of exegesis astounding, but what else is new here hey. Just goes to show that there is a difference between someone who just reads the Bible, and someone who STUDIES it, like me.

No - they are anthropomorphisms - period.

God is not a Bird, but the following verses describe Him as having "Wings" (Deut. 32:11, Psalm 17:8, Psalm 91:4, Jer. 49:22).

......And you quoting one liners out of context doesn't prove your point, typical behavior from many.

God is not a Man and does not draw breath like a man

......Never said he was a 'man', and neither did Ezekiel. What Ezekiel actually said is that he had the appearance of an all consuming fire with a tangible FORM, and that form, that shape just so happens to be similar to his image bearers. That doesn't mean he draws breath like a man, him being pure spirit.

YOUR problem is that you don't understand Scripture and lean instead on your OWN understanding instead of trusting in God (Prov. 3:5-6).

.....Right now, my only problem is in assuming that you are as half as competent in understanding scripture as you make yourself out to be. Perhaps you should try casting your catholic dogma aside for awhile so that you can actually start getting a real understanding of who God really is and how he operates.

 

[Dcopymope]

i kind of understand why you say this, but imo it is acceptable and even advisable to consider that visions can relate spiritual truth without being literally real. Christ is portrayed as a Lion or a Lamb, but you don't discount these as lies or anything, right. "4" and "wheels in wheels" and etc all have symbolic meaning as well

A lot of the times discerning what is and is not meant to be taken literal, or whether or not a scripture is meant to be taken as both literal and allegory boils down to common sense. If people used it more often, understanding the Bible would make it a tad bit easier, and that's not counting the Holy Spirit that gives interpretation. When it comes down to it, its still a book, words on a piece of paper. Its not just any book as it is Gods word, but it is a book nonetheless.

do we have an intermediary with God or not?

Yeah, what does that have to do with the subject of this thread??

 

[Stranger]

God is omnipresent spirit. He doesn't have a form because he is EVERYWHERE.
To take Ezekiel literally is really a beginner's blunder.

You can't understand God's Word if you can't understand this point . . .

You are very foolish to make ones understanding of God's Word on this point. For in so doing you are the one who can't understand God's Word.

We are told in (John 5:37), by Jesus Christ no less, "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heared his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." God does have a 'shape'. And that shape is in the form of man. And Jesus Christ is the express image of His Person in every way. That includes 'form' and 'shape'.

We are in the shape we are because God is that shape. God would never create man in another shape than that which He knew Jesus Christ would take the form of.

Just because God has form and shape does not mean He is not Spirit. What foolish thinking.

Stranger