Where does scripture directly say there will be a 7 year tribulation and a pre, mid, or post trib rapture related to it?
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Agreed, but don't you think the spiritual body will be visable, and that when John is describing those he sees about Jesus' throne (Rev 4:2), in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6, and others before the throne (Rev 7:9) come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14). I ask this because I really don't know what a spiritual body really is at this time, but John was seeing something.
Again I ask, how can we say none are in heaven at this time, or what I say is the future Lord's Day (Rev 1:10); John says he sees them.
It's certain that Jesus' angel is among those John sees. Thanks.
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Hi Dave L, I recognize that this was not a reply to me alone, but would like to begin discourse on the subject. I'm rather certain you've read the following scripture, but I submit them to verify that us in Christ will be caught up to be with Jesus at some time. It has become known as a rapture, and John observes it occuring in different stages.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
This is how I see it too. No trace of a 7 year tribulation in scripture nor a"rapture" preceding it. The rapture happens after the resurrection on the last day.
Many Christians (including yourself) have the mistaken idea that everything must be EXPLICITLY stated before they will believe it. But there are many things which are implicit -- implied -- and can only be discovered through diligent study.
So if you are hoping for a verse which says "There will be a 7 year tribulation and the Rapture of the Church will take place before this" you will not find it.
On the other hand, if you can discover from Scripture WHY the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are expressions of God's wrath against the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked, then you will come to a proper understanding of the truth.
The real issue is whether you genuinely want the truth. Since you have bought into the lies of Five Point Calvinism and Amillennialism, chances are you prefer the doctrines of men to the truth of God.
Hi again Dave L. Hopefully I've got good news for you, and a new way of discerning the context of much of what John was shown. If not, I'll see you there anyway in spite of our understanding. :)
The biggest difference in my eschatology is that I don't use the early church's change of the phrase "The Lord's Day" to mean the day Sunday. I see nothing in scripture to even suggest such a difference from scripture calling that great time to come as "The Day of the Lord." Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. I say with conviction that Jesus' Day is more than the one day He rose from the dead on a Sunday.
To understand Jesus' millennial reign, we must know what John is being shown, and especially the starting point from the three viewpoints John tells us. They are given us in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Hereafter from when? Sunday 2000+ years earlier as John is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1?)
If this makes any sense to you, I believe you'll also start seeing the divisions of time both the prophet Daniel, and Apostle John are shown, and describe. There are seven weeks of tribulation to come; the first three and one-half years are the temptation to come upon all the world described to the church of Philadelphia in Rev 3:10. If you or anyone else wants to continue with this, just say so.
BTW, and I know this comes as a surprise, but Jesus' angel that shows John everything told us as "His angel" in Rev 1:1. In Rev 19:10 this angel was so glorified I reckon, John bowed to worship him, and the angel told John that he was our brethren that have the testimony of Jesus. How'd he get to heaven before the last day to show John all these things?
Blessings in Christ Jesus brethren.
But all of this is based on a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks? No scripture anywhere to support it? It turns Jesus who fulfilled the prophecy into Antichrist? This looks pretty bad and that's not good.
Praise God, I think you're seeing another of the great flaws much of God's very own people have owned. They attempt to push the seventieth week of Daniel to be the starting point of the tribulation to come upon all the world. We might call that time another week of Daniel, and that being Dan 9:27, but check it out using Dan 9:24
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Which of these blessing weren't finished in the full seventy weeks of Daniel. It's for certain that the time to come hereafter of Rev 4:1 is not going to be blessings to much of the world.
Good. What do you think of Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
In your thinking dear brother, when did this occur in past history? I believe as we go forward with John's vision in Revelation, and that put together with Daniel's other scripture it'll begin coming together as we see promises of the future. Consider Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. When is the abominination of desolation set up? and this is only the first three and one-half years of the seven to come minus those shortened so that all flesh is not destroyed.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew chapter twenty-four is near exclusive of the tribulation to come, and it is the man of sin, or antichrist much of the Church have come to call him.
Other scripture of interest put together with Revelation in the little horn of Dan 7:8 who is the man of sin to come, and the other little horn of Dan 8:9 which is the false prophet to come. When we get to the dividing of days in Revelation these scriptures reveal much.
Thanks for your interest in these things.
Not a word, not a hint, of a Tribulation having any relevance to the timing of the "rapture" in the 1Th4 verses you quote. Go read Luke 21 and see that Christians were not going to be raptured before the Tribulation. Jesus tells Christians what they'll suffer and warns them to flee. I really have a hard time believing any Pretibber has read Jesus' sermon on the Tribulation. Out-of-context verse quotes don't count. (I'm being kind in just expressing I have a hard time believing they have read the sermon.)
1Th4:17 is about our resurrection, not rapture. "Then we which are alive and remain..." Go get your dictionary and look up the word "we", it specifically means Paul himself, and his Thessalonian audience, not us, not any future generation (although we can apply the same hope to our own lives, not the absolutely foolish hope of a rapture, but the hope of being meeting Christ and being reunited with our deceased loved ones). "Remain alive" is a contrast to our passed loved ones, not a statement that we won't die.
Hi Vexatious, have you considered how Jesus' angel is with Jesus prior to the tribulation; how does he get there if not caught up? He is our brethren.
A second occurance is those of Rev 4:4, the twenty-four elders, and those of rev 4:6, the four beasts or living ones. They are round about, and in the midst of the throne prior to the tribulation beginning and told us in revelation Chapter Six. Notice something else there, and that is that it is told us the four beasts are actually participating as Jesus opens the seals by inviting John to see in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:5, & Rev 6:7. They had to get there somehow prior to the tribulation.
Thanks again.
Are we not going to meet Jesus (the true believers) that's what that all means you know. so it means that we are all dead to our body's at such a point that we go to Jesus.
1 Tess 4:13, them that are asleep are dead to there body.
14, we and they who have died, is the point.
15, points out that it's Spiritual.
16, the ones who have died go first and them we.
17, we are with them in Heaven.
1 Tess 15:51-52 is about Spiritual body's.
Oh I do pay attention to scripture and what others say you know and it looks like we have reached a point were Christians have been duped with many deceptions, I never heard such rubbish back in the 60's 70's 80's as to the rubbish that is going about until about 2000 on to nowadays and this type of rubbish is at the top of the list nowadays with every con man that I come across plays on this, then you see that such support gays and all the rest of new age nonsense that is clearly against the Kingdom of God. so how can they get in to the Kingdome of God when they don't cut the grade. one should not be promoting nonsense.
Why don't you interpret the actual Scriptures line by line given instead of "we are all dead to our bodies"? Looks like you don't really want to accept what is clearly spelled out in the Bible.
It does not matter what you heard or did not hear. Take the Scriptures given and tell us what they mean, and when that will become a reality. Line by line.
We all have been influenced by such tec, I tend to listen and then look into it, than follow with the crowd.
I see it this way Jesus Saved me when I was Born Again of the Holy Spirit, that's when I knew him and that's it, if Jesus was to come in the flesh he would know me and I him, but I do not need to see him because I know him, so the whole point is that I need not be looking for him, because I am found in him, so what is he going to do with me, he knows me and I him.
So why do I look when I am found.
I know why people are looking for him, it's because they are lost only water baptised, they do not have the Holy Spirit.
Jesus fulfilled the 70th week, ending the sacrifice with the sacrifice of himself for sin in the middle of it. You reject this and turn him into Antichrist saying the 70th week was not contiguous, but well off into the future. Scripture knows nothing of a future 70th week.
I agree.
I didn't mean to, and must have said it wrong somehow to give that impression. To me the 70th week of Daniel was complete, and actually ended with the stoning of Stephen.
That leaves us with "What is Dan 9:27 saying?"
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (this prince isn't Jesus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he (who is this "he" that shall make a covenant?) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Thanks again. :)
You are turning Jesus, who showed up in the 70th week, into Antichrist, who did not show up in the middle of the 70th week.
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