The Immaculate Conception Error!

[StanJ]

Barrd does tend to pull that little old lady card out a lot, and the 'grits and gravy' coloqualisms. They're all feminine wyles in disguise, used to deflect from the issues. ;)

 

[Barrd]

I never said I didn't like that site. I clearly said you You quoted Jamie Frater from his website so I assumed you knew who he was. You act like you don't know who he is but quote him word for word.
When you quote someone, word for word, one would naturally assume you know who they are. But I digress.

I simply quoted from the site, Tom.
Catholics do not deny that there have been some incredibly wicked popes.
Another Catholic on this board has freely admitted that there were some horrible popes, but insists that they were infallible anyway.

Go figure, eh?

 

[iakov]

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

This doesn't sound a whole lot as if these folks were talking about Jesus' cousins, or any other "near kinsmen". They definitely do seem to be talking about the family of "the carpenter" and his wife, Mary. Um...their "immediate family'.

I'm sure it sounds like that to you.

Was Jesus the carpenter's son? (Joseph's son) No, he was not.
Did Joseph have other children? We don't know.
Is it not very likely that Joseph and Mary had relatives in the area..cousins, nephews, nieces, aunts and uncles? Of course. They would all be referred to as brother's and sisters in that culture.

 

[Barrd]

I'm sure it sounds like that to you.

Was Jesus the carpenter's son? (Joseph's son) No, he was not.

Their neighbors in Nazareth thought that He was Joseph's son.

Did Joseph have other children? We don't know.

Don't most Catholics believe that Joseph was an older widower who already had children by his dead wife when he married Mary?

Is it not very likely that Joseph and Mary had relatives in the area..cousins, nephews, nieces, aunts and uncles? Of course. They would all be referred to as brother's and sisters in that culture.

Of course, they could have had relatives in the area...but again, where why do we not see any other family with Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem to register for the tax?

What I do not understand is why it is so important to have Mary be a "perpetual virgin", in the first place. How would it detract from Jesus' divinity if Mary had other children with Joseph? I truly do not understand the problem.

 

[tom55]

I simply quoted from the site, Tom.
Catholics do not deny that there have been some incredibly wicked popes.
Another Catholic on this board has freely admitted that there were some horrible popes, but insists that they were infallible anyway.
Go figure, eh?

You have utterly confused me!!!

I know you "simply quoted" (cut and pasted) from Jamie Frater's website.....that is what I accused you of......which you at first denied doing by saying you don't know who he is....now your are saying you did quote from it/him?? Can you see why I am confused?? I guess what you mean is you googled the first website that listed bad Popes, cut and pasted it without researching it or seeing who the author is and then accepted it as gospel????

You are not announcing any breaking news when you say Catholics do not deny that there have been bad Popes. If you were to read history books (instead of RCC hate books) you would learn that the RCC has acknowledged having at times in their 2000 year history "wicked Popes". I suspect if your Church, LoveInc, is around for 2000 years it will have some wicked people in it also.

I am not sure what YOU think infallible means when it comes to what the RCC defines it as. I would ask you what you THINK it means but you never answer any of my questions so I shall not waste my time. What I would suggest you do is stop reading hate books about our Catholic brothers and sisters (or any Church) and start reading history books. I am not saying there weren't some bad Popes. I am saying SOME of the things you have said (and many others on this site) about the RCC I easily found the truth about it by very simple research. Shouldn't we be defenders of the truth instead of spreading lies about our Christian brothers?

Respectfully.....Tom

 

[tom55]

Tom55 said:
I don't understand why we cannot accept the authority of Jesus Christ?

YOU, The Barrd, have said that communion (bread/wine) is a metaphor/symbol of Jesus body/blood. Jesus said you must eat his body and drink his blood to have life in you. Take this and eat it for it is my body, drink this for it is my blood. It appears YOU do not accept the authority of Jesus Christ.

Tom55 said:
No, we do not agree. I don't think that giving a man the authority that belongs to Christ alone is a very good idea.

YOU SAID: However, no other church declares that it's leader is the voice of Christ on earth. No other church has ever wielded the kind of power that the RCC once had. Princes, Kings, Queens....even Emperors bowed to his throne. I then said I agree with your statement....and now you are saying "we don't agree"??? Are you taking back your statement?? I am utterly confused!

You would lose that bet, Tom.
I am a disabled old lady living on SSI...that is a little over $700 a month here in Alabama. I'm lucky if I have as much as that famous poor widow, once the bill collectors are done with me every month. I don't know if I could scrape up two pennies to toss into the collection plate...
In other words, I am "the average poor person".
The computer I am typing on was bought for me my someone who had read my book, "The First Sinner" and loved it. He saw that bit on the back cover about my "dilapidated old laptop" and, to my great suprise, he sent me a new one. He also bought me an air conditioner, because this old, tumble down shack I live in didn't have one.
Yet my house is always full of people, and I am kept busy cooking every day.
You know nothing at all about me, yet you make these assumptions. Why is that?
Me ol' Gran' once tol' me that mos' folks tend ta judge by their own standards. When ye see a man a-pointin' 'is finger an' talkin' bout 'ow some other lad isna' doin' 'is bit to 'elp the poor, ye kin bet that man is a greedy 'un 'isself. Shame on ye, then, me bucko...ye not only judge one that ye know not, but ye gives yerself away a-doin' it.
(Me ol' Gran', she were Welsh, doan ye know.)
Yet my house is always full of people, and, yes, I do give food away, all the time. There is a lot of love in this house, Tom, so in a sense, I am rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

The "poor" in America have houses bigger than the average European, air conditioning, TV's, computers, car(s), better and more food, better living conditions, cellphones, playstations, etc. etc. we don't live on dirt floors or cardboard houses. We don't have to walk miles to get water for our family.

Your $700 a month and your living condition is 3-4 times better than the average poor person in the rest of the world. Comparatively, you are filthy rich. Living in splendor and wealth. When are YOU gonna stop living in YOUR splendor and wealth and start giving up what YOU have instead of complaining about someone else's riches and what they are doing with it? You are responsible for you, not the RCC or anyone else's riches.

 

[Deborah_]

What I do not understand is why it is so important to have Mary be a "perpetual virgin", in the first place. How would it detract from Jesus' divinity if Mary had other children with Joseph? I truly do not understand the problem.

Hi there, I don't understand it either, but I once discussed the subject with a very well-informed Catholic on another forum.

He told me that RC theology argues that (probably because of Mary's sinless state) any and all children born of her would have been sinless. That would mean not only Jesus Himself but any brothers or sisters born after Him. Obviously we can't have that situation arising, so therefore Mary cannot have had any other children.

I haven't got round to researching this myself, so only have his word for it. It may just be his personal understanding.

Needless to say, because Protestants don't believe that Mary was sinless in the first place, we don't have to reconcile this particular problem.

 

[Barrd]

You have utterly confused me!!!

I know you "simply quoted" (cut and pasted) from Jamie Frater's website.....that is what I accused you of......which you at first denied doing by saying you don't know who he is....now your are saying you did quote from it/him?? Can you see why I am confused?? I guess what you mean is you googled the first website that listed bad Popes, cut and pasted it without researching it or seeing who the author is and then accepted it as gospel????

You are not announcing any breaking news when you say Catholics do not deny that there have been bad Popes. If you were to read history books (instead of RCC hate books) you would learn that the RCC has acknowledged having at times in their 2000 year history "wicked Popes". I suspect if your Church, LoveInc, is around for 2000 years it will have some wicked people in it also.

I am not sure what YOU think infallible means when it comes to what the RCC defines it as. I would ask you what you THINK it means but you never answer any of my questions so I shall not waste my time. What I would suggest you do is stop reading hate books about our Catholic brothers and sisters (or any Church) and start reading history books. I am not saying there weren't some bad Popes. I am saying SOME of the things you have said (and many others on this site) about the RCC I easily found the truth about it by very simple research. Shouldn't we be defenders of the truth instead of spreading lies about our Christian brothers?

Respectfully.....Tom

Tom, I could have cut and pasted that list from any one of a number of web sites. Fevvisakes, it is no secret that there have been unspeakably wicked popes the the RCC's past. The church acknowledges this fact, so I do not see why you are arguing about it.

And yes, it is true that there have been wicked leaders in other churches as well. Unfortunately, when you give a man (or woman) power over other people, many will abuse that power to suit their own ends. We know that the heart of man is desperately wicked, and yet we keep making the same mistake, over and over again...whew, you'd think eventually we'd figure it out. I guess we are just not terribly bright.

The thing about Love Inc. is that we have no particular leader. Nobody has any power or authority over anyone...so there is no power to abuse. However, if our little church should be around for 2000 years, I'm sure that, eventually, some wicked person will try to grab some power...because we are human, and humans are prone to sin. And being the idiots that we are, of course, sooner or later, we will allow this power grab...and
Love Inc. will lose the love that makes it so special...

What do I think "infallible" means? I think it means incapable of making a mistake.

Merriam Webster defines infallible:






infallible
play

adjective in·fal·li·ble \(ˌ)in-ˈfa-lə-bəl\



Simple Definition of infallible

Popularity: Top 20% of words

• 
  : not capable of being wrong or making mistakes : not fallible
  
• 
  : certain to work properly or succeed
  

Full Definition of infallible

1. 
   1 : incapable of error : unerring <an infallible memory>
   
2. 
   2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : certain <an infallible remedy>
   
3. 
   3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
   

in·fal·li·bil·i·ty play \-ˌfa-lə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun


in·fal·li·bly play \-ˈfa-lə-blē\ adverb


See infallible defined for English-language learners
See infallible defined for kids

Examples of infallible

1. 
   I never claimed to be infallible.
   
2. 
   There is no infallible remedy to these problems.
   

What the RCC seems to believe is that, no matter how wicked these guys were in their private lives, when they spoke from their office as pope, they could never be in error.
Sorry, but that makes no sense at all...

I'm sorry I do not live in Europe...but the pope does.
What little I have by American standards, I share.

When the pope does the same, I will be impressed. Till then....so not.

 

[Barrd]

Hi there, I don't understand it either, but I once discussed the subject with a very well-informed Catholic on another forum.

He told me that RC theology argues that (probably because of Mary's sinless state) any and all children born of her would have been sinless. That would mean not only Jesus Himself but any brothers or sisters born after Him. Obviously we can't have that situation arising, so therefore Mary cannot have had any other children.

I haven't got round to researching this myself, so only have his word for it. It may just be his personal understanding.

Needless to say, because Protestants don't believe that Mary was sinless in the first place, we don't have to reconcile this particular problem.

Enough reason then, to be grateful that I am not Catholic.
It was close enough...my parents were members of the Episcopal Church... ...but they weren't exactly very devout Christians, I am sorry to say...

 

[StanJ]

Enough reason then, to be grateful that I am not Catholic.
It was close enough...my parents were members of the Episcopal Church... ...but they weren't exactly very devout Christians, I am sorry to say...

That sounds an awful lot like the Pharisee thanking God that he was not a publican? Luke 18:9-14 (NIV)

 

[tom55]

Tom, I could have cut and pasted that list from any one of a number of web sites. Fevvisakes, it is no secret that there have been unspeakably wicked popes the the RCC's past. The church acknowledges this fact, so I do not see why you are arguing about it.

You once again have me confused. I am not arguing about anything. I have agreed with you that there were "wicked Popes" and I have stated it myself. I have been agreeing with you this entire time however now you accuse me or arguing about it.......truly confusing. I simply pointed out that you cut and pasted Jamie Frater and are now acting like you don't know who he is.

And yes, it is true that there have been wicked leaders in other churches as well. Unfortunately, when you give a man (or woman) power over other people, many will abuse that power to suit their own ends. We know that the heart of man is desperately wicked, and yet we keep making the same mistake, over and over again...whew, you'd think eventually we'd figure it out. I guess we are just not terribly bright.

If you are a church of one, like anyone who practices sola Scriptura or if you meet in a basement and call yourself Love Inc, you don't have to worry about wicked Popes leading you....because you are the Pope.

The thing about Love Inc. is that we have no particular leader. Nobody has any power or authority over anyone...so there is no power to abuse. However, if our little church should be around for 2000 years, I'm sure that, eventually, some wicked person will try to grab some power...because we are human, and humans are prone to sin. And being the idiots that we are, of course, sooner or later, we will allow this power grab...and
Love Inc. will lose the love that makes it so special...

So who do you call when you need anointing of the sick??

What do I think "infallible" means? I think it means incapable of making a mistake.



What the RCC seems to believe is that, no matter how wicked these guys were in their private lives, when they spoke from their office as pope, they could never be in error.
Sorry, but that makes no sense at all...

In 2000 years how many times has the Pope taught infallibly?

If the bible is the infallible word, who is the infallible person on earth that can interpret it properly? Wouldn't it take an infallible person or entitiy to speak with infallible authority about scripture since it is the infallible word of God?

WHO at Love Inc. interprets scripture for you? Would they not then be the Pope of your church?

I'm sorry I do not live in Europe...but the pope does.
What little I have by American standards, I share.
When the pope does the same, I will be impressed. Till then....so not.

Are you saying the RCC does no good in the world?? They don't help the poor??








Your $700 a month and your living condition is 3-4 times better than the average poor person in the rest of the world. Comparatively, you are filthy rich. Living in splendor and wealth. When are YOU gonna stop living in YOUR splendor and wealth and start giving up what YOU have instead of complaining about someone else's riches and what they are doing with it? You are responsible for you, not the RCC or anyone else's riches.

 

[Barrd]

You once again have me confused. I am not arguing about anything. I have agreed with you that there were "wicked Popes" and I have stated it myself. I have been agreeing with you this entire time however now you accuse me or arguing about it.......truly confusing. I simply pointed out that you cut and pasted Jamie Frater and are now acting like you don't know who he is.

One does not need to know who put a web site up in order to cut and paste from it.
You should know that.

If you are a church of one, like anyone who practices sola Scriptura or if you meet in a basement and call yourself Love Inc, you don't have to worry about wicked Popes leading you....because you are the Pope.

We do not meet in a basement. We meet in each other's homes. My house doesn't even have a basement.
And nobody is "the pope". No one kneels to anyone, or kisses anyone's ring. We are all equals.

So who do you call when you need anointing of the sick??

You are aware, I'm sure, that every church has the right to ordain it's own clergy? We are, under the law, recognized as a church...we may be a bit non-traditional, but we met enough of the criteria to qualify. Of course, it didn't hurt that our Judge of Probate is related to my son-in-law...

And you know, also, that there are a great many websites that offer to ordain you, some for a fee, others, completely free. Yeah...even my little dog is "ordained"...but we did it to prove a point.
When he buries a bone, he is completely within his rights as "clergy". Outrageous, huh? But that's our government...

Remember, "Congress shall make no law" etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, we call on one another for these kinds of needs.

In 2000 years how many times has the Pope taught infallibly?

Does he have to "teach" that he is infallible? I thought it went along with the gig...

If the bible is the infallible word, who is the infallible person on earth that can interpret it properly? Wouldn't it take an infallible person or entitiy to speak with infallible authority about scripture since it is the infallible word of God?

Either you believe in Jesus Christ, or you don't.
Either you believe what He told us:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Or, choosing to pass Him by, you will rely on some man to "interpret scripture" for you.

WHO at Love Inc. interprets scripture for you? Would they not then be the Pope of your church?

By your logic, I guess Jesus Christ is our "pope".

Are you saying the RCC does no good in the world?? They don't help the poor??

Well, I know that there are hospitals, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, etc that are Catholic. As far as I know, hospitals are quite adamant that their doctors and nurses will be Catholic...and they are pretty good at what they do. Well, mostly.
Frankly, after seven kids, I was relieved to have my tubes tied so that there wouldn't be any more. Good job that I did, too...given that there could have been eight or nine by the time my David was killed.
Of course, other churches help the poor, too...and without a treasure chest hidden away in some basement somewhere.

I will say this...the RCC never helped me, or anyone I know. We had a homeless man living under a bridge out near Pensacola. David and I used to bring him food all the time. He wouldn't think of coming home with us, although we offered many times. I think he was concerned about all the kids he saw in our car.
And then, it was Christmas. A Baptist church in Pensacola had bought him a tent, and given him some warm clothes...remember, the climate in Alabama is mild, so camping out isn't as horrible as it might be in, say Buffalo, New York (brrrrr)...but still, he needed a little help. We gave him a little Christmas tree and some decorations for it.
Now, the Catholics knew he was there, and they do have a shelter in Pensacola. But for some reason, they either didn't see him, or they didn't care.
The end of the story is not pretty. Some thugs, thinking that he had Christmas presents, and looking for drug money, killed him and tore his little camp site apart. Two of them were arrested at the scene, the rest fled.

Your $700 a month and your living condition is 3-4 times better than the average poor person in the rest of the world. Comparatively, you are filthy rich. Living in splendor and wealth. When are YOU gonna stop living in YOUR splendor and wealth and start giving up what YOU have instead of complaining about someone else's riches and what they are doing with it? You are responsible for you, not the RCC or anyone else's riches.

Like I said, I do not live in Europe. Good job I don't, since I don't think I'd be getting the $700...and I know the RCC wouldn't help me.
I live in Alabama, and what I do have, I share.

The pope, on the other hand, does live in Europe.

Tom, I do not feast while others fast. The pope, however, lives in opulent splendor, while these poor folks you talk about continue to live in their cardboard houses and scrounge for scraps.


Think of Jesus' story of the poor widow at the temple.
The rich men who put so much money into the treasury did not impress Jesus one little bit, did they?
According to Him, a poor widow, with her two pennies, put in more than any of them.

Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
Luk 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

That is a common misconception about the Immaculate Conception and, when stated in voice or print, identifies the speaker or writer as someone who has willfully chosen to be ignorant on the topic upon which (s)he has chosen to pontificate since factual information is easily and quickly accessible on the internet he/she is currently using to display his/her ignorance to the world.

Many Catholics and Orthodox Christians have a special devotion to Mary.
That devotion is supported by the teachings of their churches.

Many Protestant Christians have a devotion to denigrating the RCC and Mary.
That devotion is also supported by the teachings of their churches.

They are both religious devotions but appear to be inspired by different spirits. :unsure:


iakov.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; ​

as I have loved you, that you also love one another. ​

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.​

(NKJV)​

I know some protestants that say the blessed mother was just a incubator for Jesus lol

All generations will call me a incubator or all generations will call me blessed?

It's the protestant haste to dismiss all things catholic that lead to irrationality imo

 

[iakov]

It's the protestant haste to dismiss all things catholic that lead to irrationality imo

The wars of the reformation have been over for about 400 years. It's probably time to move on.

Unless, of course, someone really needs to have someone to look down on and to mock and to insult and to slander.

There seems to be a very large number of Protestants who would be quite happy to pass laws that required Catholics to ride in the back of the bus.... (:-|

 

[iakov]

I will say this...the RCC never helped me, or anyone I know.

So, you never heard of Mother Theresa of Calcutta or Father Damian of Molokai or St. Jude's Children's Hospital?

Or, don't you care to know?

 

[Barrd]

I know some protestants that say the blessed mother was just a incubator for Jesus lol

All generations will call me a incubator or all generations will call me blessed?

It's the protestant haste to dismiss all things catholic that lead to irrationality imo

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, and if I did, I would quickly correct them.
Obviously, Mary was a great lady, or God would not have chosen her to bear His Son.
However, I think insisting on an "immaculate conception" for her is a bit much.
She was conceived in the regular way...her father and her mother had sex.
Now, I'm sure that she was a Virtuous Woman. Again, God would not have chosen her to be the Lord's mother if she were not.
But sinless? Uh-there was only ever ONE Who was completely without sin. If Mary could be without sin, why couldn't she be the Savior?

But the one that really gets me is the "perpetual virgin" Why, oh, why couldn't Mary have a normal sex life with her husband? Why couldn't she have more children? How would it take anything from Jesus for her to be a normal woman?

 

[Barrd]

So, you never heard of Mother Theresa of Calcutta or Father Damian of Molokai or St. Jude's Children's Hospital?

Or, don't you care to know?

I never met Mother Theresa, or Father Damian.
Neither of these great people were around when my husband was taken from his family by a drunk driver, and I was left with seven kids to raise alone, and no assets at all but my own determination. You've heard me tell the story...married right out of high school (cuz girls didn't need a fancy education to change diapers, mop floors, and bake biscuits), I had no marketable skills. I didn't even have a driver's licence...not that it would have done me any good...the car was totaled. I was in a very bad place...but I got through it.

OH, yeah...I am a regular contributor to St. Jude's.

 

[Barrd]

The wars of the reformation have been over for about 400 years. It's probably time to move on.

Unless, of course, someone really needs to have someone to look down on and to mock and to insult and to slander.

There seems to be a very large number of Protestants who would be quite happy to pass laws that required Catholics to ride in the back of the bus.... (:-|

LOL! Actually, I kinda prefer the back of the bus. More room to sprawl...

 

[StanJ]

I never met Mother Theresa, or Father Damian.
Neither of these great people were around when my husband was taken from his family by a drunk driver, and I was left with seven kids to raise alone, and no assets at all but my own determination. You've heard me tell the story...married right out of high school (cuz girls didn't need a fancy education to change diapers, mop floors, and bake biscuits), I had no marketable skills. I didn't even have a driver's licence...not that it would have done me any good...the car was totaled. I was in a very bad place...but I got through it.
OH, yeah...I am a regular contributor to St. Jude's.

You seem to where that chip on your shoulder as a badge of honour?

 

[mjrhealth]

There seems to be a very large number of Protestants

Well if according to the catholics, any one who disagrees with them is a protestant, that would make Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit, All the angels and Saints in Heaven "protestants", and that is a lot.