The Holy Sacrament is Spiritual

[Raccoon1010]

Hello dev,

It is spiritual food indeed. Jesus is truly manifestly present in the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters have believed and taught for 2000 years..

Here's St, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch circa 100 AD:

But mark ye those who hold strange doctrine
touching the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us,
how that they are contrary to the mind of God. They
have no care for love, none for the widow, none for
the orphan, none for the afflicted, none for the
prisoner, none for the hungry or thirsty. They abstain
from eucharist (thanksgiving) and prayer, because they
allow not that the eucharist is the flesh of our
Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our
sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Lightfoot translation)

Pax et Bonum

Well although the sacrament is to represent the body and blood of the Christ, I don't believe that it turns into the body and blood of Christ. I believe all that is handled thru the Holy Spirit.

Yes I know some people here don't believe in the sacrament. Which is a strange belief.

 

[Philip James]

why then does the eucharist not Give what Jesus himself said it would give. why eat the eucharist like the jews ate manna. and still they died?

You are mistaken, it does indeed give Life. Here is some more from St. Ignatius:

Assemble yourselves together in common, every one
of you severally, man by man, in grace, in one faith
and one Jesus Christ, who after the flesh was of
David's race, who is Son of Man and Son of God, to the
end that ye may obey the bishop and presbytery without
distraction of mind; breaking one bread, which is the
medicine of immortality and the antidote that we
should not die but live for ever in Jesus Christ.


Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians (Lightfoot translation)

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

Well although the sacrament is to represent the body and blood of the Christ, I don't believe that it turns into the body and blood of Christ. I believe all that is handled thru the Holy Spirit.

dear dev,

It is brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit to be sure, but why would you not believe that Jesus is truly there, inviting all to receive Him and be united with Him and through Him with each other?

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are mistaken, it does indeed give Life. Here is some more from St. Ignatius:

Assemble yourselves together in common, every one
of you severally, man by man, in grace, in one faith
and one Jesus Christ, who after the flesh was of
David's race, who is Son of Man and Son of God, to the
end that ye may obey the bishop and presbytery without
distraction of mind; breaking one bread, which is the
medicine of immortality and the antidote that we
should not die but live for ever in Jesus Christ.


Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians (Lightfoot translation)

Pax et Bonum

Jesus did not say it would give life

He said whoever ate would

Never hunger
Never thirst
Live forever
Never die
Be rasied on the last day
Has eternal life.

There is a huge difference between mere life and eternal life

You can take the eucharist and still die.. If it did all Jesus said it would do. You would not be taking hit weekly. because it would as jesus said "endure forever"

 

[Jim B]

Hello dev,

It is spiritual food indeed. Jesus is truly manifestly present in the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters have believed and taught for 2000 years..

Here's St, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch circa 100 AD:

But mark ye those who hold strange doctrine
touching the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us,
how that they are contrary to the mind of God. They
have no care for love, none for the widow, none for
the orphan, none for the afflicted, none for the
prisoner, none for the hungry or thirsty. They abstain
from eucharist (thanksgiving) and prayer, because they
allow not that the eucharist is the flesh of our
Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our
sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Lightfoot translation)

Pax et Bonum

a) Did St, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, write in olde Englyshe?
b) That is simply one person's opinion. The bread of the eucharist is not the flesh of Jesus, it is bread. It is symbolic (only) of His body.

When Jesus said "this is my body" He was reclining at the table. Matthew 26:26, "While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” Clearly He was alive, in one piece, and sharing a loaf with His disciples.

 

[Philip James]

Jesus did not say it would give life

Didn't He?

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.

You can take the eucharist and still die.. If it did all Jesus said it would do. You would not be taking hit weekly. because it would as jesus said "endure forever"

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Or on what basis you suggest 'You can take the eucharist and still die..'.

One need only come together with their husband once to consummate a marriage, but it would be a cold marriage indeed did she never again embrace her Husband.

Pax et Bonum

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Didn't He?

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.

See the word forever?

does anyone who eats the eucharistic bread life forever?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Or on what basis you suggest 'You can take the eucharist and still die..'.

Jesus said if you eat you will not die. he also compared it to manna, he said they ate manna and are dead because the food did not make whoever ate it live forever..

One need only come together with their husband once to consummate a marriage, but it would be a cold marriage indeed did she never again embrace her Husband.

Pax et Bonum

we are talking about eternal life here. not marraige..

 

[Philip James]

See the word forever?

does anyone who eats the eucharistic bread life forever?

Those who participate worthily, yes.

Jesus said if you eat you will not die. he also compared it to manna, he said they ate manna and are dead because the food did not make whoever ate it live forever..

Indeed

we are talking about eternal life here. not marraige..

union with Christ is what we are talking about here. To have Christ is to have eternal life. To depart from Christ is to depart from eternal life.

He is eternal life, and He shares that life with all who come to Him.

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Pax et Bonum

 

[Raccoon1010]

dear dev,

It is brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit to be sure, but why would you not believe that Jesus is truly there, inviting all to receive Him and be united with Him and through Him with each other?

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

Yes the Holy Spirit is power over the universe. We know that from Genesis and the creation of the heavens and earth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Those who participate worthily, yes.

did jesus say only if they participate worthily? Did he say they had to keep eating it?

Indeed



union with Christ is what we are talking about here. To have Christ is to have eternal life. To depart from Christ is to depart from eternal life.

He is eternal life, and He shares that life with all who come to Him.

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Pax et Bonum

Jesus said whoever eats will never die. He did not say whoever sticks with him or whoever does not.

Its why the Eucharist and Jhn 6 are incompatible

 

[Philip James]

did jesus say only if they participate worthily? Did he say they had to keep eating it?

St. Paul clarified that:

A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Jesus said whoever eats will never die. He did not say whoever sticks with him or whoever does not.

He said other things as well such as:

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Do you think it possible to have eternal life apart from Christ?

Its why the Eucharist and Jhn 6 are incompatible

John 6 is all about the Eucharist. Do you know of any other bread that Jesus gave us?

What do you think it means to have eternal life?

Pax et Bonum

 

[Eternally Grateful]

St. Paul clarified that:

A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Paul is talking about the lords supper. Which jesus said do often in remembrance of me

Jesus in John 6 said whoever eats will never die.

2 completely different things.

He said other things as well such as:

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Do you think it possible to have eternal life apart from Christ?

Now think about this/ What did jesus said in John 6. You do not see because you do not believe. What did he say in John 3. That whoever believes is not condemned whoever does not believe is condemned already

John 6 is all about the Eucharist. Do you know of any other bread that Jesus gave us?

What do you think it means to have eternal life?

Pax et Bonum

If john 6 was the Eucharist. Whoever e=ate would never die.

the fact even you admit that one can eat and still die proves it is not the eucharist.

Take with that what you will/ But those are just fact..

 

[Philip James]

If john 6 was the Eucharist. Whoever e=ate would never die.

the fact even you admit that one can eat and still die proves it is not the eucharist.

you have answered your own objection:

What did he say in John 3. That whoever believes is not condemned whoever does not believe is condemned already

Compare with Paul's admonition ;)

You do not see because you do not believe

Are you trying to be a comedian?

This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,

Pax et Bonum

 

[Eternally Grateful]

you have answered your own objection:



Compare with Paul's admonition ;)



Are you trying to be a comedian?

This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,

Pax et Bonum

Lets say this

If someone comes and says eat this and you will live forever

then next week. That person says here eat this again.

You would call them a deceiver.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing with Jesus words in John 6

John 6 is not the lords supper. The lords supper is a continuance of passover.. only instead of remembering the passover, we remember the cross.

 

[marks]

Lets say this

If someone comes and says eat this and you will live forever

then next week. That person says here eat this again.

You would call them a deceiver.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing with Jesus words in John 6

John 6 is not the lords supper. The lords supper is a continuance of passover.. only instead of remembering the passover, we remember the cross.

I was visiting a church once when Ms. Pastor invited the congregation to partake of the Lord's supper, and she told everyone, It doesn't matter what you believe, if you eat this, you will be saved". We did not partake with them, and we did not return.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Yet that is exactly what you are doing with Jesus words in John 6

Hardly,

I am doing this when challenged by Christ if I will also leave?

"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Lay yourself down brother and believe His words!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hardly,

I am doing this when challenged by Christ if I will also leave?

"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Lay yourself down brother and believe His words!

Pax et Bonum

What that shows is Peter understood what Jesus said.

Jesus said, it is the spirit who gives life. The WORDS I SPEAK are spirit and they are life

Peter responded, Where can we go. YOU HAVE THE WORDS That give eternal life..


That is the bread from heaven, That is the flesh and Blood (the cross) thats what we are to gnaw and chew on, that is what we can eat and drink and never hunger or thirst., never die etc etc. It’s called the cross.

Not some wafer and cup of wine handed by a priest.

 

[Philip James]

Jesus said, it is the spirit who gives life. The WORDS I SPEAK are spirit and they are life

Peter responded, Where can we go. YOU HAVE THE WORDS That give eternal life..

Indeed.

What that shows is Peter understood what Jesus said

You think so? Or does it show that Peter understood Who Jesus Is?

That is the bread from heaven, That is the flesh and Blood (the cross) thats what we are to gnaw and chew on

well lets just check that..

Jesus: the bread that I will give is my flesh

Jesus: this is My body, take and eat

So then will you believe His words? or will you say this:

"This saying is hard; who can accept it?"


Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

I was visiting a church once when Ms. Pastor invited the congregation to partake of the Lord's supper, and she told everyone, It doesn't matter what you believe, if you eat this, you will be saved". We did not partake with them, and we did not return.

Much love!

Yikes!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Indeed.


You think so? Or does it show that Peter understood Who Jesus Is?




well lets just check that..

Jesus: the bread that I will give is my flesh

Jesus: this is My body, take and eat

So then will you believe His words? or will you say this:

"This saying is hard; who can accept it?"


Pax et Bonum

You say you got it. But did you?

Once again, In john 6. Jesus said if you eat the BREAD that I give you. You will never hunger, and never thirst. He called it the food that endures forever.

Do you understand that concept?

The word endure in the greek is menousan - it means to remain, to stay, to reside, to still be in existence. to abide

How long did he say this food would remain, stay, reside, to still be in existence or to abide? To everlasting or eternal life!

if it remains, if it abides, if it stays forever. and it is the means of eternal life. it never dies. And since it never dies. You will never die.

since it remains, stays resides. It is why you will never hunger and never thirst. Because unlike manna which the fathers ate. It does not lose its power to sustain you

since it remains, since it endures, since it abides, You will never die and you will live forever. because it is the fuel that keeps you alive. and it never loses its power.

The body and flesh of the eucharist does not remain, it does not abide, it does not stay, it does not continue in existence. if it did., you would never need to take it again, You would never hunger for it again, You would never die because you do not keep taking it. or because you took it unworthily.

Peter did understand, he may not have understood the full meaning, but he understood the concept..

Jesus said it is the SPIRIT that gives life..the WORDS he speaks are spirit and they are life. The words endure forever. The cross endures forever, the truth that he gave his flesh and blood for the sin of mankind as the lamb of God endures forever.


If we do as Peter did. and place our trust in these WORDS of eternal life. We have eaten the food that endures forever. Those words, and the spirit who gave them who is given to us will remain, abide, stay, be in existence, and it is these words that is the means of eternal life. which John said we can know we have. It is the blessed hope of the gospel. It is the blessed hope of John 3 when Jesus told Nicodemus how to be born again. That just as Moses raised the serpent, so mus the son of man be lifted up. that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him, will never perish, but HAS ETERNAL LIFE..There is the eternal life that Jesus spoke about. which whoever took in the food he came to give, would live forever.

Jesus said whoever believes is not condemned, Whoever does not believe is condemned already. because they have not believed. They did not gnaw and chew on the gospel (the words the spirit gave). so they could believe..

The Eucharist does not endure, it does not stay, it does not remain in existence, it does not empower to eternal life.,

If it did. You would not keep eating it, Like the fathers kept eating manna in the desert, and it does not even promise eternal life.


Once again, When Jesus said take eat... he said do it often.. in remembrance of him. He did not say take it, this food will endure to eternal life.. Huge difference