The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[teamventure]

I don't know but anyone who attacks the deity of Jesus is a messenger of Satan.

Oh, I didn't read that yet. Thanks for the heads up, I'm going to keep away from him.

 

[Jack]

Oh, I didn't read that yet. Thanks for the heads up, I'm going to keep away from him.

If we didn't have Satan's messengers here attacking our Bible and the deity of Jesus discussion wouldn't be as lively. lol

2 Timothy 4
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

And the time is at hand. Satan's messengers are on the ATTACK against the deity of Jesus and the eternal Hell fire!

 

[Jack]

That does not mean we have to accept everything at face value and not question God regarding His purposes. "Come now, and let us reason together saith the Lord". Questioning does not mean doubting... It means "I would like to know you better, and to better understand my place in the scheme of things so I can serve you in love, knowing Who and what you are, rather than from fear thinking if I don't behave, or wasn't chosen, then I'm lost."

What 'purpose' doesn't He already tell us in the Bible? I think He tells us all we need to know about Him.

Psalm 119
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No it isn't!

Then why is it ETERNAL? Appears? lol

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Billions will spend eternity in Hell fire. No doubt, they didn't believe in Hell either.

Did I dismiss hell or say it doesn't exist? I don't think I did. Jesus spoke about hell, and he thought it was real and therefore, so do I. Jesus often spoke of Gehenna, the city dump where the fires never stopped burning up the trash. In this way he spoke metaphorically about the Lake of fire where the fires burn forever. At the end of this post, I will mention one more thing that Jesus said about hell.

Billions of people can't spend eternity in any fire. Fire destroys. Therefore, a lake of fire destroys people. So if they are destroyed, they are not tormented.

But perhaps demons don't burn up. Perhaps a demon can be tormented in a lake of fire.

Before we look at Revelation 20:10, I would like to point out something. The Devil has human confederates; in the end, one ally will rise above them all. This man is called "the antichrist" and "the man of sin." The Book of Revelation calls him "the beast." The book of Revelation also pictures the "beast" as a demon and a human accomplice working together. And while his human accomplice is destroyed in the fires of hell, the demon lives on. Given this information,

Consider the wording of Revelation 20:10

And the devil [demon] who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast [demon] and the false prophet [demon] are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

What do we see here, billions of souls? I count three demons: the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. These three demons will be tormented day and night in the lake of fire, not billions of human beings who will be incinerated and destroyed in the fire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You gotta understand I know the language, the culture, and the history.
Word games will not work on me anymore than it would with Christ or the Apostles.
They used several different words and descriptions and illustrations and it all comes down to a fiery Hell of punishment forever.
No description of Judgment handing out different sentences, the sentence is forever.
The sentence is burn in flames forever.
No time out for good behavior.
No example of anyone leaving Hell.
The word temporary is not associated with Hell.
This carrys on all through the early Christian writers that were disciples of the Apostles.
Althrough Christian history and through the Protestant reform.
The Ecumenical Councils definitely did not question Hell as a fiery place of eternal punishment.
This questioning of Hell does not occur until the age of liberalizm.
You might as well as develop your own reality...even a religion....it would be easier to start a new religion rather than spend your life learning a religion of tap dancing and denial.
If you do not like Hell, don't do the things that will get you there.

The sentence is burn in flames forever.
I encourage you to read the passages again. The flames are forever. The people are destroyed as Jesus said.

You might be confusing the Bible with Dante's Inferno, which seems to be the source of what hell is like, believed by Christians. His images and ideas have made their way into Christian folklore for many years.

But what did Jesus say?

Matthew 19:28

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Jesus says that both souls and bodies are destroyed in hell. That's our starting point. We trust our Lord Jesus, and we believe what he says. And since he says that the Lake of Fire is where people are destroyed, then that principle and foundational concept inform all the other passages that speak about eternal fires. The fires never stop, but the people aren't located in the fire forever. As Jesus said, they are destroyed.

 

[Jack]

Did I dismiss hell or say it doesn't exist? I don't think I did. Jesus spoke about hell, and he thought it was real and therefore, so do I. Jesus often spoke of Gehenna, the city dump where the fires never stopped burning up the trash. In this way he spoke metaphorically about the Lake of fire where the fires burn forever. At the end of this post, I will mention one more thing that Jesus said about hell.

Billions of people can't spend eternity in any fire. Fire destroys. Therefore, a lake of fire destroys people. So if they are destroyed, they are not tormented.

Guess you missed what Jesus said.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

But perhaps demons don't burn up. Perhaps a demon can be tormented in a lake of fire.

Before we look at Revelation 20:10, I would like to point out something. The Devil has human confederates; in the end, one ally will rise above them all. This man is called "the antichrist" and "the man of sin." The Book of Revelation calls him "the beast." The book of Revelation also pictures the "beast" as a demon and a human accomplice working together. And while his human accomplice is destroyed in the fires of hell, the demon lives on. Given this information,

Consider the wording of Revelation 20:10

And the devil [demon] who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast [demon] and the false prophet [demon] are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

What do we see here, billions of souls? I count three demons: the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. These three demons will be tormented day and night in the lake of fire, not billions of human beings who will be incinerated and destroyed in the fire.

Your opinions do not overrule Jesus.

 

[Grailhunter]

The sentence is burn in flames forever.
I encourage you to read the passages again. The flames are forever. The people are destroyed as Jesus said.

You might be confusing the Bible with Dante's Inferno, which seems to be the source of what hell is like, believed by Christians. His images and ideas have made their way into Christian folklore for many years.

But what did Jesus say?

Matthew 19:28

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Jesus says that both souls and bodies are destroyed in hell. That's our starting point. We trust our Lord Jesus, and we believe what he says. And since he says that the Lake of Fire is where people are destroyed, then that principle and foundational concept inform all the other passages that speak about eternal fires. The fires never stop, but the people aren't located in the fire forever. As Jesus said, they are destroyed.

LOL you so funny....you want those scriptures again?
Hell fire is eternal torture for you, if you are so judged.
Yes the fire is eternal and you will be doing your tap dance in the flames forever.
You can tap dance all you want but you better behave.
A religion of denial. It is no use, you cannot deny the truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus says that both souls and bodies are destroyed in hell.

Yes you will be wishing you were destroyed....
Destroyed is not eternal torment....teeth do not gnash when you are destroyed nor screams of pain.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Guess you missed what Jesus said.

No. I didn't miss it. Jesus didn't say anything about everlasting pain, anguish, or torture. He says the fire was everlasting. That's it. But make sure to notice the intended purpose of the Lake of Fire. The purpose of the Lake of Fire is NOT punishment; The purpose of the Lake of Fire is permanent absence from reality.

Let me illustrate. Suppose a man is convicted of domestic violence and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment. Time served is his punishment. I would think that as long as her husband remains in jail, she will have time to heal both physically and psychologically. But as soon as he is released from prison, she will become afraid and she might even panic. The man's punishment is over, but her distress, anxiety, and panic, will begin again. She will suffer torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth because the existence of her husband remains a threat.

Unless the man repents, he will end up in the Lake of Fire, where he will be destroyed and never be a threat to anyone ever again. That is the purpose of the Lake of Fire ---- to remove the enemies of the righteous so that they will NEVER pose a threat again.

Consider the following passage.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed. ​

The key phrase for our discussion today is "away from the presence of the Lord and away from the glory of his power." The purpose of the Lake of Fire is to remove those who afflict us from existence, especially away from the Lord and his glory.

Jesus tells a story about Lazarus and the rich man. The story is an account of a conversation between a rich man, Lazarus, and Father Abraham. The rich man complains about the heat, being in agony in the flame. The story is located in a place called "Hades." (Luke 16:23). According to Jewish folklore, Hades is a place with two compartments, one for the righteous dead and another for the unrighteous dead. And according to Jesus, the unrighteous dead suffer torment.

After the Millennial period, though, Hades itself is destroyed in the Lake of fire. Revelation 20:14. Both Death and Hades are destroyed in the Lake of Fire. The purpose of the Lake of Fire is not to suffer. People suffer in Hades, but eventually Hades itself will no longer exist. All suffering is over, which is why the New Earth is absent of tears.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL you so funny....you want those scriptures again?
Hell fire is eternal torture for you, if you are so judged.
Yes the fire is eternal and you will be doing your tap dance in the flames forever.
You can tap dance all you want but you better behave.
A religion of denial. It is no use, you cannot deny the truth.

I understand your religious belief. But I find no scriptural support for it.
Is it because your argument is weak that you attempt to intimidate me?
This isn't a wise course, because intimidation weakens your argument further.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes you will be wishing you were destroyed....
Destroyed is not eternal torment....teeth do not gnash when you are destroyed nor screams of pain.

Three demons.

 

[Grailhunter]

I understand your religious belief. But I find no scriptural support for it.

Should I say you are out of your mind or is it that you cannot read...Want those scriptures again? From top to bottom and backwards and forwards I know it.

My aunt was Jehovah's Witness and I spent time in those kingdom halls with no windows. They know the Bible but only because they work at explaining away the scriptures.

Not saying that you are Jehovah's Witness but it looks like you have worked hard at finding ways to attempt to explain away the scriptures.....And I say attempt because you do not even get close....but it does show an intent to do the devil’s work.

In the military when you are court-martialed they award you prison time, they do not sentence you. They award you because you worked for it and deserve it. And you will be awarded because you deserve it. Tell them to pack the barbecue sauce in your casket.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Should I say you are out of your mind or is it that you cannot read...Want those scriptures again? From top to bottom and backwards and forwards I know it.

My aunt was Jehovah's Witness and I spent time in those kingdom halls with no windows. They know the Bible but only because they work at explaining away the scriptures.

Not saying that you are Jehovah's Witness but it looks like you have worked hard at finding ways to attempt to explain away the scriptures.....And I say attempt because you do not even get close....but it does show an intent to do the devil’s work.

In the military when you are court-martialed they award you prison time, they do not sentence you. They award you because you worked for it and deserve it. And you will be awarded because you deserve it. Tell them to pack the barbecue sauce in your casket.

In case you missed it, I did not explain away the scriptures. I disproved your interpretation of them. I understand your embarrassment and your wish to strike out. Give yourself the requisite time to discover the truth for yourself.

 

[Grailhunter]

In case you missed it, I did not explain away the scriptures. I disproved your interpretation of them. I understand your embarrassment and your wish to strike out. Give yourself the requisite time to discover the truth for yourself.

I guess you do not realize that is the same thing.
Really man! It does not mean what it says! It means something else that I like much better!
It is the lingo of every cult leader. Its new and improved and the secret is! And no I do not think you are a cult leader.

No you have not scripturally proven anything!

Now to put things in perspective.....I am being pretty rough on you. I call it shaking the tree. I don't want to see anyone go to Hell. So I will be rough on you rather than smile and hug ya and pat you on the back send you on your way to Hell. That is not being nice, that is being hateful.

The problem it is not only you, if others believe you, you can be responsible for their damnation....and that’s a topic that might come up on Judgment Day for you. Some living a sinful lifestyle....sexaual immorality, homosexuality.....drugs....child molestation, might get the understanding that damnation is not so bad.....that it is worth it so they can do their dubbies and be homosexual....wife swap....or go carousing on Friday night to get a one night stand ....People do not like giving up their life style....And it is the lifestyle sins that will get you a ticket straight to Hell.

And that is a big point, you have a reason to put all this effort into disproving an eternal fiery torment....a reason. Now what is it? Maybe you didn't make the change. A lot people do not understand what repentance is, in the physical. Some preachers try to say that repentance means turn around or you need to be sad or sorry about the way you have been living....it is not. It is a change of heart, a change of mind, a change of intent. You realize that what you were doing was wrong and you do not want to be that person.....want and intent occurs before salvation. If there is no change there is no salvation.....it did not even begin. Christianity is not a club you sign up for and go on as usual.

If you want to do sinful things you are not saved....If you intend to do sinful things you are not saved and Christ will tell in the end He never knew you. So what is the motivating factor for all your effort to prove that there is no eternal fiery torment? It is a rhetorical question. You need to get right with God and quit trying to twist the scriptures. Stop doing the thing(s) that make you fear a fiery Hell of eternal punishment. Yes you need to repent....your soul depend on it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I guess you do not realize that is the same thing.
Really man! It does not mean what it says! It means something else that I like much better!

Of course it means what it says. But it doesn't say what you think it does.

It is the lingo of every cult leader. Its new and improved and the secret is! And no I do not think you are a cult leader.

I understand your temptation to strike out in contemptuous anger.

No you have not scripturally proven anything!

I know. I scripturally disproved your interpretation.

Now to put things in perspective.....I am being pretty rough on you. I call it shaking the tree. I don't want to see anyone go to Hell. So I will be rough on you rather than smile and hug ya and pat you on the back send you on your way to Hell. That is not being nice, that is being hateful.

Human beings have a limitless capacity for rationalization.

The problem it is not only you, if others believe you, you can be responsible for their damnation....and that’s a topic that might come up on Judgment Day for you.

Fortunately, one is not damned according to what one believes about hell. Besides, fear of hell is not a good reason to believe in Jesus. Only bullies use coercion to get their way.

Some living a sinful lifestyle....sexaual immorality, homosexuality.....drugs....child molestation, might get the understanding that damnation is not so bad.....that it is worth it so they can do their dubbies and be homosexual....wife swap....or go carousing on Friday night to get a one night stand ....People do not like giving up their life style....And it is the lifestyle sins that will get you a ticket straight to Hell.

Appeals to emotion indicate a weak argument.

And that is a big point, you have a reason to put all this effort into disproving an eternal fiery torment....a reason. Now what is it? Maybe you didn't make the change. A lot people do not understand what repentance is, in the physical. Some preachers try to say that repentance means turn around or you need to be sad or sorry about the way you have been living....it is not. It is a change of heart, a change of mind, a change of intent. You realize that what you were doing was wrong and you do not want to be that person.....want and intent occurs before salvation. If there is no change there is no salvation.....it did not even begin. Christianity is not a club you sign up for and go on as usual.

Was the plane ride too rough? Here, take this bag.

If you want to do sinful things you are not saved....If you intend to do sinful things you are not saved and Christ will tell in the end He never knew you. So what is the motivating factor for all your effort to prove that there is no eternal fiery torment?

I am attempting to correct your understanding of the writings of Jesus and the Apostles using scripture and sound reason. I encourage you to do the same.

It is a rhetorical question. You need to get right with God and quit trying to twist the scriptures. Stop doing the thing(s) that make you fear a fiery Hell of eternal punishment.

Fire destroys.

 

[Jack]

No. I didn't miss it. Jesus didn't say anything about everlasting pain, anguish, or torture. He says the fire was everlasting. That's it. But make sure to notice the intended purpose of the Lake of Fire. The purpose of the Lake of Fire is NOT punishment; The purpose of the Lake of Fire is permanent absence from reality.

Let me illustrate. Suppose a man is convicted of domestic violence and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment. Time served is his punishment. I would think that as long as her husband remains in jail, she will have time to heal both physically and psychologically. But as soon as he is released from prison, she will become afraid and she might even panic. The man's punishment is over, but her distress, anxiety, and panic, will begin again. She will suffer torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth because the existence of her husband remains a threat.

Unless the man repents, he will end up in the Lake of Fire, where he will be destroyed and never be a threat to anyone ever again. That is the purpose of the Lake of Fire ---- to remove the enemies of the righteous so that they will NEVER pose a threat again.

Consider the following passage.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed. ​

The key phrase for our discussion today is "away from the presence of the Lord and away from the glory of his power." The purpose of the Lake of Fire is to remove those who afflict us from existence, especially away from the Lord and his glory.

Jesus tells a story about Lazarus and the rich man. The story is an account of a conversation between a rich man, Lazarus, and Father Abraham. The rich man complains about the heat, being in agony in the flame. The story is located in a place called "Hades." (Luke 16:23). According to Jewish folklore, Hades is a place with two compartments, one for the righteous dead and another for the unrighteous dead. And according to Jesus, the unrighteous dead suffer torment.

See, even you admitted some Truth.

After the Millennial period, though, Hades itself is destroyed in the Lake of fire. Revelation 20:14. Both Death and Hades are destroyed in the Lake of Fire. The purpose of the Lake of Fire is not to suffer. People suffer in Hades, but eventually Hades itself will no longer exist. All suffering is over, which is why the New Earth is absent of tears.

Why don't you quote the Scriptures instead of you opinions??? You're making up most of that!

Here's the Truth, Humans will suffer the same fate as the Devil:

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

 

[CadyandZoe]

I guess you do not realize that is the same thing.
Really man! It does not mean what it says! It means something else that I like much better!
It is the lingo of every cult leader. Its new and improved and the secret is! And no I do not think you are a cult leader.

No you have not scripturally proven anything!

Now to put things in perspective.....I am being pretty rough on you. I call it shaking the tree. I don't want to see anyone go to Hell. So I will be rough on you rather than smile and hug ya and pat you on the back send you on your way to Hell. That is not being nice, that is being hateful.

The problem it is not only you, if others believe you, you can be responsible for their damnation....and that’s a topic that might come up on Judgment Day for you. Some living a sinful lifestyle....sexaual immorality, homosexuality.....drugs....child molestation, might get the understanding that damnation is not so bad.....that it is worth it so they can do their dubbies and be homosexual....wife swap....or go carousing on Friday night to get a one night stand ....People do not like giving up their life style....And it is the lifestyle sins that will get you a ticket straight to Hell.

And that is a big point, you have a reason to put all this effort into disproving an eternal fiery torment....a reason. Now what is it? Maybe you didn't make the change. A lot people do not understand what repentance is, in the physical. Some preachers try to say that repentance means turn around or you need to be sad or sorry about the way you have been living....it is not. It is a change of heart, a change of mind, a change of intent. You realize that what you were doing was wrong and you do not want to be that person.....want and intent occurs before salvation. If there is no change there is no salvation.....it did not even begin. Christianity is not a club you sign up for and go on as usual.

If you want to do sinful things you are not saved....If you intend to do sinful things you are not saved and Christ will tell in the end He never knew you. So what is the motivating factor for all your effort to prove that there is no eternal fiery torment? It is a rhetorical question. You need to get right with God and quit trying to twist the scriptures. Stop doing the thing(s) that make you fear a fiery Hell of eternal punishment. Yes you need to repent....your soul depend on it.

Okay now, just quiet yourself and let's do a Bible study together. You go first. Do a Bible word search in the New Testament and look up the word "weeping." Report back to the conversation what you find. Where does the weeping and gnashing of teeth take place?

 

[Patrick1966]

Where does the weeping and gnashing of teeth take place?

Mother-in-law's house?

 

[Jack]

Universalism, a Hallway to Hell!

 

[Keiw]

Yes you do have to prove it. You can't make this stuff up and be a Christian!

I haven't made it up. Those who care about truth, look for themselves to make sure of all things. I Will help you--google-tetragramoton, its that simple.