The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

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Jack

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You are too obtuse to deal with. 3 times you were asked to address the other Biblical views. You just keep repeating the same nonsense about fire over and over again.
Yes I stick to the Bible. That's What Christians do!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NOTE: You reference the fire. No one is talking about the fire.
"The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity"

I guess many 'Christians' don't like to talk about 'the everlasting fire' that Jesus mentioned several times.
 
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I believe in annihilation too, but in the Lake of Fire. Hades is not the Lake of Fire. Hades ( and everyone in it) is thrown into the Lake Of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment _ after the Millennial Kingdom _ at which time the first earth and first heavens are destroyed ( 2 Peter 3:10) as well.
Sheole is often referred to as Hell. It is not the place of final destruction though, it is temporal, within the earth. So in a sense in is phase one of death. Death is Lso thrown into the Lake of Fire ( which is what I call Hell) or phase two if you will.
A story nestled within a chapters of parables. To say otherwise is kind of a stretch.
About Luke 16:19-31
THIS IS NOT A PARABLE!

This is not symbolic language, and is to be taken literally. Why?
Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location. It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls! The Rich man's location is therefore real.
>Why describe two separate and distinct locations that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolize something else if they did not exist?
>What moral truth would be gained from something or some place that was not real?

Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!

The message to all is a stark warning. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he asleep. He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know, if it is real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
> Abraham also made it clear that these two locations were separated by a gulf (chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!

> The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus' death and resurrection.

This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.
That was after the Babylon exile, a foreign concept entered the vernacular
as per wiki

The Second Temple Period wrought several radical theological changes within the Israelite population, and marked the transition from Israelite religion to modern Judaism. The idea of Sheol underwent extensive modification and became widely diversified, with a newfound plethora of interpretations. With the codification of Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud, Jewish theology concerning the afterlife had largely abandoned the concept of a single destination for all mankind after death and adopted the more recognizable model which espoused a place of reward for the righteous, and a place of punishment for the wicked called Gehinnom. Subsequently, Sheol, and the related terms Abaddon, Bor, Shakhat, etc., were reduced to synonyms for this realm of punishment.

Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people.
I leave the proof to you. Not aware of any scriptural requirements.
Definition of a parable.
Matthew 13:10-11
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

symbols of parable
Bosom of Abraham is the place in Sheol for the Righteous Dead - colloquial especially amongst pharisee hell believers.
Lararus (greek) = Eleazar (hebrew) = God Has Helped.
Rich man = pharisee (audience of scoffers in Luke 16)

It is parabolic lesson of hypocrisy with the current middle class sensibilities in focus.

Purgatory is completely extraneous wrt to faith. Wages of sin is death. The purpose of the hell concept is to empower earthly majesty. I have only One King :) and he alone manages the covenants.
 

Jack

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A story nestled within a chapters of parables. To say otherwise is kind of a stretch.

That was after the Babylon exile, a foreign concept entered the vernacular
as per wiki

The Second Temple Period wrought several radical theological changes within the Israelite population, and marked the transition from Israelite religion to modern Judaism. The idea of Sheol underwent extensive modification and became widely diversified, with a newfound plethora of interpretations. With the codification of Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud, Jewish theology concerning the afterlife had largely abandoned the concept of a single destination for all mankind after death and adopted the more recognizable model which espoused a place of reward for the righteous, and a place of punishment for the wicked called Gehinnom. Subsequently, Sheol, and the related terms Abaddon, Bor, Shakhat, etc., were reduced to synonyms for this realm of punishment.

Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people.
I leave the proof to you. Not aware of any scriptural requirements.
Definition of a parable.
Matthew 13:10-11
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

symbols of parable
Bosom of Abraham is the place in Sheol for the Righteous Dead - colloquial especially amongst pharisee hell believers.
Lararus (greek) = Eleazar (hebrew) = God Has Helped.
Rich man = pharisee (audience of scoffers in Luke 16)

It is parabolic lesson of hypocrisy with the current middle class sensibilities in focus.

Purgatory is completely extraneous wrt to faith. Wages of sin is death. The purpose of the hell concept is to empower earthly majesty. I have only One King :) and he alone manages the covenants.
You can ignore Jesus all you like but you'll be very sorry on Judgment Day. Maybe eternally sorry.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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Keiw

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Someone should have told Jesus.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Jesus teaches--Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction.-- See the words destruction--not eternal life to suffer. Fire destroys eternally, it was symbolism. you teach a sadist God--God is love, merciful--not the sadist you teach because you or your religion do not know God or his son.
 

Jack

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Jesus teaches--Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction.--
"Everlasting destruction", a process that NEVER ends!

2 Thessalonians 1
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
See the words destruction--not eternal life to suffer.
You are parroting the Watch Tower.

Revelation 20

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Fire destroys eternally, it was symbolism.
"Symbolism", one of the Watch Towers favorite words when they don't like what God said.
you teach a sadist God--
If God was "a sadist" He wouldn't have warned us about "the everlasting fire". We were clearly warned.
God is love, merciful--
Is that why He drowned all on Earth but 8, including elderly and children "MAKING THEM and EXAMPLE"? So, accept my Bible challenge. You will lose. Honestly I doubt you ever read the Bible before you went to Kingdom Hall.
not the sadist you teach because you or your religion do not know God or his son.
I think you just violated forum rules.
 
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You can ignore Jesus all you like but you'll be very sorry on Judgment Day. Maybe eternally sorry.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I take it you want to be converse with me. about the nuances of your hell doctrine. :-)

Explain these for me
You can use figures if you desire.
Matthew 25:41 left hand side tossed into hell
Revelation 20:10 three beasts tossed jnto hell
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the hell (is second death)
Revelation 21:8 baddies tossed into hell (but is second death)

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 

Jack

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I take it you want to be converse with me. about the nuances of your hell doctrine. :)

Explain these for me
You can use figures if you desire.
Matthew 25:41 left hand side tossed into hell
Revelation 20:10 three beasts tossed jnto hell
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the hell (is second death)
Revelation 21:8 baddies tossed into hell (but is second death)

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If you had read the Bible you would know 'death' does not mean 'cease to exist'. MANY will wish they 'ceased to exist'!

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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amigo de christo

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No, there won't be any unbelievers, not then. And neither will there be any of the dead with God in the New Creation.

You see, you must be born again. Join Jesus Christ in His death, because you too will also die, and after that, judgment. Without receiving new life in Christ, you will remain dead in sin, and you will discover the 2nd death, your final destination.

It's all about life and death. All men are dead in sin, ever since Adam. In Christ all are made alive. That is to say, everyone who is in Christ is made alive. Just like all who were in Adam died. Those not in Christ remain dead.

It's what John wrote, "and I saw the dead, both great and small . . . and the books were opened . . . and anyone not written in the book of life was tossed into the lake of fire".

Much love!
Thats right my friend . POINT TO JESUS CHRIST till the last breath ebbs out those lungs . HE ALONE
is the only HOPE one has . PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD .
 

amigo de christo

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God will explain it so all will understand.

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
As far as mercy , notice the rich man cried out for mercy , but never got it . FOLKS need to PREACH JESUS NOW .
cause in the pit of hades it will be too late . JESUS IS OUR HOPE and our salvation .
Today so many would rather preach a false goodness of GOD and wipe out the idea of any eternal punishments .
My advice is they better read the book of revelation and see what happens to those who add too or take from that book .
 
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Jack

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As far as mercy , notice the rich man cried out for mercy , but never got it . FOLKS need to PREACH JESUS NOW .
cause in the pit of hades it will be too late . JESUS IS OUR HOPE and our salvation .
Today so many would rather preach a false goodness of GOD and wipe out the idea of any eternal punishments .
My advice is they better read the book of revelation and see what happens to those who add too or take from that book .
Amen!

Hebrews 10
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
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amigo de christo

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Amen!

Hebrews 10
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Oh AND PS , if we honor the dark rainbow , newsflash we honor satan and rebellion against GOD .
Now believe me i know that wont be tolerated by the lovey do gen ERRR ation . BUT TIS TRUE .
Time we get dug in the bible .
 

Jack

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Oh AND PS , if we honor the dark rainbow , newsflash we honor satan and rebellion against GOD .
Now believe me i know that wont be tolerated by the lovey do gen ERRR ation . BUT TIS TRUE .
Time we get dug in the bible .
Many 'Christians' have been duped by Satan's ministers in church! What a better way to lead people to Hell than in church!

2 Corinthians 11
Satan
himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
 

quietthinker

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Since YOU are the one challenging God Satan has you greatly confused.

Guess Who said this:

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

His Name is Jesus.
I can see Jack that you are intent on maintaining your point of view irrespective of context. The texts you pick out, enlarge and highlight confirm your singular narrow monologue.
 

Keiw

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"Everlasting destruction", a process that NEVER ends!

2 Thessalonians 1
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

You are parroting the Watch Tower.

Revelation 20

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

"Symbolism", one of the Watch Towers favorite words when they don't like what God said.

If God was "a sadist" He wouldn't have warned us about "the everlasting fire". We were clearly warned.

Is that why He drowned all on Earth but 8, including elderly and children "MAKING THEM and EXAMPLE"? So, accept my Bible challenge. You will lose. Honestly I doubt you ever read the Bible before you went to Kingdom Hall.

I think you just violated forum rules.
You keep your sadist God. I will keep the God of love. All who know him knows 100% its symbolic=eternal suffering. You wont believe the facts found in the bible in your short sightedness- This single teaching proves it isnt literal--The place where the worm dieth not( speaking of Gehenna--Face facts-no worm in existence could survive a single hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not. Try listening to the facts instead of the twisted teachings of these blind guides-2Cor 11:12-15
 

Jack

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I can see Jack that you are intent on maintaining your point of view irrespective of context. The texts you pick out, enlarge and highlight confirm your singular narrow monologue.
And I can see that you reject a very large part of the Christian Bible.
 
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Jack

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You keep your sadist God. I will keep the God of love.
You mean God of the Bible Who burned Sodom alive, "making them an example"?
Genesis 19
24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
All who know him knows 100% its symbolic=eternal suffering.
Again "symbolic", one of the Watch Tower's favorite words when they don't like what God said!
You wont believe the facts found in the bible in your short sightedness- This single teaching proves it isnt literal--The place where the worm dieth not( speaking of Gehenna--Face facts-no worm in existence could survive a single hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not. Try listening to the facts instead of the twisted teachings of these blind guides-2Cor 11:12-15
There you go trying to rewrite our Bible again! You're not qualified not matter what the Watch Tower told you.
 
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Instant

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All three views are not Biblical. The first option is the Biblical view. Hell is a place of eternal torment for the lost. Jesus is very plain about that. I get no joy in thinking that anyone will be tormented forever, but that is what the Bible teaches.
 
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Instant

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Seems preposterous that there would be ANY "unbelievers" in the afterlife.
With the veil removed, what is, will be plain to see.

But part and parcel of the belief in hell is the belief that God is not responsible for those who end up there.
It's the blame the victim mentality.

If there is a hell, who created it? The creator of ALL things, obviously.
Those who believe in hell want to separate God from it. As if he had NOTHING to do with it.
Everyone is a believer once they cross over, but we are judged according to whether we are believers in this life, not the next. God created all things including hell. Hell was created for the devil and his demons, but those who reject Jesus in this life will be punished with them. I am sorry if this makes some uncomfortable, but it is the truth, and lying to people to make them feel better is not showing them love. When we see someone in danger, it is our duty to warn them to save them from destruction.
 

MatthewG

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Sheol / Hades.

Was the realm of the dead.

People died, and when they pasted on they went to Sheol - because - the connection between God and man had a separation as you see Adam and eve being lead out of the Garden.

Sin - kept them from God - and they were in a place of the dead.

This place of the dead with unbodied souls had two compartments,

Paradise - where Jesus went when he died on the Cross.
and the separated prison part of Sheol, which held people from NOAHS time, and there was even a lower part that held angels.


That is hell in a nut shell... if you wanna know about what it was like it was very dark, gloomy, had bars, and slippery (always wanting to try be still) - I think of Jonah in the whale. It also had the Paradise part but people were still unbodied until Jesus Christ came, and was resurrected which


PAID for that sin before - and eventually all those in Sheol were let out, and judged, according to Revelation.

There is so many made-up ideas about hell the only way to get to the truth is actually go study it yourself, looking at the evidence in the bible.

Hell / Hades / Sheol / Paradise - all of it was a covering for the dead - as SIN had yet to be taken care of.