lukethreesix
New Member
- Jan 11, 2014
- 212
- 7
- 0
If only a "select few", then Adams sin effect more people than the cross of Christ. "As in Adam ALL die, so ALSO in Christ ALL will live. Christ has/will restore ALL that Adam broke.
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Matthew 22:11-14lukethreesix said:If only a "select few", then Adams sin effect more people than the cross of Christ. "As in Adam ALL die, so ALSO in Christ ALL will live. Christ has/will restore ALL that Adam broke.
All the above is not salvation by works but faith in action. Faith has an action.If man MUST DO anything for salvation, then its not all the blood of Christ. Its Blood + belief, or blood + repentance, or blood + acceptance, or blood + confession, or blood + obedience, acceptance, belief, confessing, forgiving, love, obedience, trust, serving, all these are verbs, action words, things you DO. Salvation is not of works lest anyman boast. If you contributed in anyway to your salvation then you can boast. But salvation is of God, its a gift. Faith is a gift.
God is God and never does any thing more or less then He should have. He does all things exactly as He purposes.lforrest said:God couldn't have done any less to prevent Adam's fall, but I don't blame God for it. He trusted man more than he should have, because it is in his loving nature to do so. Regardless of the cause of the fall the end result is a select few being nearer to God than Adam ever was.
Adams sin affected all of his race. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all of Adams race.lukethreesix said:If only a "select few", then Adams sin effect more people than the cross of Christ. "As in Adam ALL die, so ALSO in Christ ALL will live. Christ has/will restore ALL that Adam broke.
But, did God just restore what Adam lost. Or, as your original question was, have we been brought to a much higher place than the Garden? And, was that always the plan of God or was God just reacting to something?Angelina said:God made man capable of sin just as he made the angels capable of sin. This does not mean that God allowed sin to go on unpunished but that through Adam's disobedience, God was able to restore what had been stolen from the beginning.
All the above is not salvation by works but faith in action. Faith has an action.
Why was Jesus Christ the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world? Rev. 13:8Pelaides said:It sounds almost as if you are blaming God for adams disobediance,Adam was a man,he did not need a babysitter.![]()
That is the way I see it too.Quantrill said :
Seems as though God had a plan. And the fall of man was very much a part of that plan.
Yep. No other verse has been more misunderstood. God is sovereign over natural disasters - evil in this context means natural disasters.lukethreesix said:Isaiah 45:7, "I create evil" - God
I agree,until satan and his angels are removed from this world we will always have evil.Arnie Manitoba said:That is the way I see it too.
And if something "went wrong" it was in the heavenly realms (Satan & angels) before the earth and Adam were formed.
And somehow the effects are played out through mankind until the fallen Spirits are locked up for good.
Just an overview of my thoughts after 27 years of thinking about it. Kind of a ... "best guess"
Isaiah 45:7 (ESV): "I form light and create darkness,lukethreesix said:Isaiah 45:7, "I create evil" - God
Yes, those in Adam die. And all of the human race is in Adam. Which is why you and I will still experience death unless the Rapture comes first. Because though we are now 'in Christ', it is only our born-again spirits that are. Our body is still from Adam.lukethreesix said:Yes, "in Christ all will live". But you have to be 'in Christ'. And not all are.
- Quantrill
Do we have to be "in Adam" to die?
1 Cor 15:22 makes it VERY clear! Paul uses the words "JUST AS" In Adam, "SO ALSO" in Christ.
Just as...so also...this means EXACTLY in the same way, effecting the same people Christ brings life to all those Adam cursed.
In Romans 5:15-21 Paul again makes it VERY clear..."The Many" were cursed becaused of Adam, "The Many" justified by Christ.
AGAIN, your theology teaches that Christs' blood is not enough to save. But His Blood must be added with your will power. That is so wrong. Gods will saves, not ours. God was not crossing His fingers when He sent Christ to "Save the World". Saying "Gee, I hope this works?" NO!!! Your putting the burden of salvation upon the shoulders of men, not on the shoulders of Christ where it belongs.
God is not evil. But God uses the evil that is there all the time. And no, God is not tainted with any evil just because He uses it. Who turned Job over to Satan? God. In fact, Who brought up Job to Satan in the first place? God.aspen said:If God planned Humanities Fall, He used evil to bring about Good. No one can use evil for any reason without being tainted by it. If God planned The Fall, He fell first. I do not believe God is evil.
At the Easter Vigil Mass the Deacon intones the Exultet. An ancient (5th century) and joyfull hymn praising God. It contains the stanza:Angelina said:A friend made an interesting statement the other night. He said that we are better off since Christ's death on the cross and his resurrection than Adam was prior to the fall.
Any thoughts :huh:
Think about what you are actually saying in this statement - a parallel statement might be 'the President isn't a liar, but He uses lies that have already been told all the time'. Using a lie for the greater good is justifying the end with the means - it is immoral.God is not evil. But God uses the evil that is there all the time.
Liars are liars because they lie.And no, God is not tainted with any evil just because He uses it.
Do you really think the story of Job is about Gods morality? Far from it - if it was God would be immoral and unworthy of worship. Job is about Gods sovereignty over all His creation - He is watching over us through the good and the bad times of our lives - our justification, sanctification, the temporal consequences of our Fall and the consequences of our neighbors Fall on ourselves.Who turned Job over to Satan? God. In fact, Who brought up Job to Satan in the first place? God.
I agree with you that God brings Good from Evil, but that is not the same thing as USING Evil for Good. God does not need evil to bring about good things, but He is not going to let Evil stop Him from bringing about Good, either. CS Lewis and Jerry Sistter say it best when they describe the problem of pain - God always brings about blessings regardless of Pain - but the Pain is not required, nor is it worth the blessings. I believe Gods Will will be done in our lives regardless of all the consequences of the Fall. Jesus would have come for us even if we never sinned in the Garden - and He would have given us what we needed most - unfortunately, because of our Fall we needed Him to die for us the most. We would have learned forgiveness without the Fall, but, thankfully, God used the Fall to make forgiveness extra clear.The brothers of Joseph sold Joseph into slavery. They did it for evil purpose. But God did it for good. God is not guilty of evil and God is not evil. He did it for good. But, He still did it.
You just don't want to believe what the Bible says. I asked Who it was that turned Job over to Satan. Did God do it or not? And, we are told that it was God that sent Joseph into slavery. 'God meant it for good.' But evil was being used to accomplish it because the brothers did it for 'evil'.aspen said:I do not think evil makes us better. In fact, I think we chose how to learn about forgiveness the hard way.
Think about what you are actually saying in this statement - a parallel statement might be 'the President isn't a liar, but He uses lies that have already been told all the time'. Using a lie for the greater good is justifying the end with the means - it is immoral.
Liars are liars because they lie.
Do you really think the story of Job is about Gods morality? Far from it - if it was God would be immoral and unworthy of worship. Job is about Gods sovereignty over all His creation - He is watching over us through the good and the bad times of our lives - our justification, sanctification, the temporal consequences of our Fall and the consequences of our neighbors Fall on ourselves.
I agree with you that God brings Good from Evil, but that is not the same thing as USING Evil for Good. God does not need evil to bring about good things, but He is not going to let Evil stop Him from bringing about Good, either. CS Lewis and Jerry Sistter say it best when they describe the problem of pain - God always brings about blessings regardless of Pain - but the Pain is not required, nor is it worth the blessings. I believe Gods Will will be done in our lives regardless of all the consequences of the Fall. Jesus would have come for us even if we never sinned in the Garden - and He would have given us what we needed most - unfortunately, because of our Fall we needed Him to die for us the most. We would have learned forgiveness without the Fall, but, thankfully, God used the Fall to make forgiveness extra clear.
Again you are talking about God's sovereignty. Everything that happened in the lives of all ancient people and every event recorded in the OT is described as Gods Will by His people because they valued His sovereignty over all other aspects of His character. The Bible is about God and how He interacts with us, but it is written from mans point of view. It tells us more about how man viewed God over the centuries than it does about Gods intentions or morality. The most valuable aspect of Gods character in the Bible is His prevailing faithfulness and never ending love for His people despite our self centered, extremely narrow focus of His intentions and the reality of the world around us. If your dog kept a journal of his relationship with you, no matter how much you revealed about yourself, and no matter how much you helped him understand love, he would focus on what is most important to him about the relationship - based on my experience owning a dog, it would be food related and intense happiness in the moment.Quantrill said:You just don't want to believe what the Bible says. I asked Who it was that turned Job over to Satan. Did God do it or not? And, we are told that it was God that sent Joseph into slavery. 'God meant it for good.' But evil was being used to accomplish it because the brothers did it for 'evil'.
God is not a liar, but He can send a lying spirit. 1 Kings 22:22-23 " And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouthj of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. "
If the fall was not planned by God, why is Christ slain from the foundations of the world?
Quantrill