The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[rebuilder 454]

Well, I get confused about *when* the Pretribs think this "peace" will be? In one case they may say it takes place in the "Tribulation" so that when Christ's 2nd Coming takes place they are surprised by Armageddon. In another place they may say the "Tribulation" is the day world peace is upset by the onset of tribulation. There are so many inconsistencies that I can't even address the issues!

But yes, world peace doesn't just suddenly come and go. When peace comes, it doesn't just suddenly return back to war or it would never have been viewed as "peace."

The notion that the disappearance of millions of Christians would just simply be dismissed by the world and the media, and be quickly ignored is ludicrous. The upset in society by Christian drivers and operators would be enormous. It is undoubtedly pure fiction. I don't know why more Pretribs do not express this embarrassment over proposing something so utterly ridiculous?

And there are other obviously silly situations with Pretrib scenarios. One version has all real Christians disappearing only to have a small army of Christians suddenly rise up by their own bootstraps, learning how to become a Christian, maturing, and then becoming strong enough to become martyrs in the space of just 7 years!

Well, I think the whole problem is that the "Tribulation" is falsely depicted as "God's Wrath" upon the planet, as if it takes God 7 years to punish a wayward planet! Frankly, I think calling it "the Tribulation" or "God's Wrath" is a misnomer.

As I've said many times, the term "Great Tribulation" has been lifted from Jesus' association with His wrath against NT Judaism and falsely applied to the Reign of Antichrist. The "Wrath of God" against the Antichrist obviously takes place largely at the end of his Reign, or he would be unable to reign at all!

I know there are other issues we are disagreed on in matters of biblical prophecy. But I do thank you for your position against Pretribism, which has taken over the "prophecy" section of Christian bookstores, and has created an unrealistic scenario, causing unbelievers to dismiss Christianity as "blind, muddled, and contradictory," or simply gullible.

I know there are some issues in prophecy that we all have to resolve. But this issue is dealt with quite directly in the Scriptures. One has to ignore what the Bible teaches to promote a Pretrib teaching. The fact the belief system was created after 1830 only gives evidence that this belief was concocted by Man, and not the product of apostolic teaching.

"1830" is false..so you misrepresent the truth.

But following your belief the early Church fathers were infallible, you hopefully follow catholicism carefully ,and by all means never should you read "against heresy " by irenaeus.
He exposed multiple heresies by those dead men you claim are divinity, and follow blindly.

Hmmm....a true extension of following men vs the bible...claiming church fathers infallible

True catholic following on display.

To top it off, Catholics also refute the pretrib rapture plus they burned pretrib heretics and their WRITINGS.
HMMM...interesting connection you unearthed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you discern a "war zone" here?...

Rev 13.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

This is not a "war zone" when nations are afraid to stand up to the Antichristian Empire. However, there have been wars in various spots all through history. None of that indicates that the presence of wars in the time of Antichrist means that the Church has left the planet.

You're cocky about your beliefs, but they are based on your own teaching--not on the Bible. Get your teaching from what the Bible *teaches,* and don't try to fit into parables what you want them to say.

2 Thes 2 teaches that Christ *cannot* come for his Church until he comes to destroy the Antichrist with the breath of his mouth. That means he must be "revealed" 1st, such that we need to discern his lies in order to avoid them. That is how we properly prepare for Christ's Coming, by rejecting satanic lies and by embracing Christ as our Lord in all difficulties and in all times of prosperity.

The "secret Rapture" is called "secret" purely because it cannot be found by any but those who wish to read it into parables that do not actually teach it. That is just setting yourself up for a lie, to believe what you want to believe.

You're safe when you follow explicit biblical teaching such as you will find in 2 Thes 2.. Christ will not come for the Church until Antichrist is revealed 1st, who will be destroyed at the actual Coming of Christ.

Christ cannot come before then. That is the actual explicit teaching of Scripture--something Pretribbers wish to gloss over or ignore or re-interpret with their "secret" teaching.

I don't know why the Lord has allowed this Pretrib, Imminency teaching to take hold in such a large portion of the Church? However, it has happened in the past, and undoubtedly is God's way of letting people go their own way.

But I do pray that God puts a curse upon this false teaching so that those who truly wish to follow God's word will be unobstructed in their pursuit of a holy life--one that is truly prepared to prevail in faith in all situations. Soon, if Postrib is truly God's word, it will become clear that this false Pretrib/Imminency teaching is a nuisance teaching--one that "adds" to the word of God things it is not saying.

QUOTE
"Rev 13.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

This is not a "war zone" when nations are afraid to stand up to the Antichristian Empire. However, there have been wars in various spots all through history. None of that indicates that the presence of wars in the time of Antichrist means that the Church has left the planet."

JESUS said in mat 24 there are two comings.
One postrib
One preflood.
So no matter what, you can not change that one is postrib on white horses, and the other is preflood/ trib/ pre Sodom destroyed/ trib.
You are completely debunked.
The hole in your doctrine is irreparable

Damage control at this point.
But no, you will deflect and pretend mat 24 says something else.
You know, Jesus threw lot in there,so you guys could have a bonus dynamic , to make some other deal an out and out embarrassment .
Noah/ lot/ pretrib gathering. ( one taken/left)
( WATCH...BE READY)
( Then the dreaded 50-50 taken in two examples pretrib)
Sorry to make your deal irrelevant.
GAME
Set
MATCH

total annihilation
Sorry about that friend

 

[Randy Kluth]

Agree. I'm concerned about the mindset that the false pretrib doctrine can promote and that is why I passionately argue against it. It can lead people to be afraid of persecution and tribulation. But, if they are living godly lives then they should expect persecution and tribulation in their lives regardless of whether they are alive during a time of tribulation before Christ's return or not.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

If someone is never experiencing any persecution then that would suggest that they are not living "godly in Christ Jesus". It would suggest that they are not ever being bold in their faith. Being bold with others about our faith will often lead to persecution of one kind or another. It won't always be physical persecution, but sometimes will be in the form of insults being hurled at us.

I totally get their fear. I cannot, for example, pray, "Lord, test me with the best you've got!" ;) That goes against our nature. Jesus prayed, "Lord, take this cup away from me. Nevertheless, your will be done."

But when we do have problems, it's therapeutic to know we've been called to a measure of suffering, and are given help in standing up. And we actually feel quite good when we succeed. :)

Mind you, I pray for blessings too! :)

 

[covenantee]

"1830" is false..so you misrepresent the truth.

But following your belief the early Church fathers were infallible, you hopefully follow catholicism carefully ,and by all means never should you read "against heresy " by irenaeus.
He exposed multiple heresies by those dead men you claim are divinity, and follow blindly.

Hmmm....a true extension of following men vs the bible...claiming church fathers infallible

True catholic following on display.

To top it off, Catholics also refute the pretrib rapture plus they burned pretrib heretics and their WRITINGS.
HMMM...interesting connection you unearthed.

So you believe that the historical Christian Church consisted solely of Catholics.

That would be typical modernist dispensational delusionism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

QUOTE
"Rev 13.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

This is not a "war zone" when nations are afraid to stand up to the Antichristian Empire. However, there have been wars in various spots all through history. None of that indicates that the presence of wars in the time of Antichrist means that the Church has left the planet."

JESUS said in mat 24 there are two comings.
One postrib
One preflood.

Jesus did *not* say there is a 3rd Coming of Christ that is prior to the Flood! ;) Jesus compared the one 2nd Coming to the Flood scenario in Noah's Day. And the comparable element was that in both scenarios, people were wicked across civilization and unbelieving, or unwilling to repent. That has nothing whatsoever to do with adding another 2nd Coming, or with calling it a "Pre-Flood Coming!"

What an utterly twisted statement!

So no matter what, you can not change that one is postrib on white horses, and the other is preflood/ trib/ pre Sodom destroyed/ trib.
You are completely debunked.
The hole in your doctrine is irreparable

There is no Pre-Flood Coming of Christ, since the Flood was many years before the Last Days. You are twisting Scripture to maneuver your own false theology into the text.

The doctrine I use are explicit statements that Paul used in 2 Thes 2, in which he associated the one 2nd Coming with the fall of Antichrist. You are rejecting that, and you will have to live with that.

Damage control at this point.
But no, you will deflect and pretend mat 24 says something else.
You know, Jesus threw lot in there,so you guys could have a bonus dynamic , to make some other deal an out and out embarrassment .

You are gaslighting. Nobody is intimidated on the Postrib side. Bible doctrine gives me peace.

You have so little peace that you have to resort to insulting characterizations. I am not desperate. I'm not worried. I'm not fighting anything.

On the other hand, you sound so desperate that you're willing to lose your Christian attitude. I have no wish to see that happen to you.

Noah/ lot/ pretrib gathering. ( one taken/left)
( WATCH...BE READY)
( Then the dreaded 50-50 taken in two examples pretrib)
Sorry to make your deal irrelevant.
GAME
Set
MATCH

total annihilation
Sorry about that friend

You're not sorry about anything. We disagree--simple as that. If you lose sleep, that's on you--not me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

QUOTE
"You're safe when you follow explicit biblical teaching such as you will find in 2 Thes 2.. Christ will not come for the Church until Antichrist is revealed 1st, who will be destroyed at the actual Coming of Christ.

Christ cannot come before then. That is the actual explicit teaching of Scripture--something Pretribbers wish to gloss over or ignore or re-interpret with their "secret" teaching."

I already showed you that when reading that, we do in fact see " revealed".
Now you add to it.( out of your mind..anything other than "revealed"is not there )
So you can misrepresent me 24/7. It is your choice to do so.
SMH....I am losing respect for you.

Now, concerning the postrib doctrine of claiming a secret rapture.
It is YOUR DOCTRINE

IT IS YOUR claim that somebody believes in a secret rapture.
I can not see, in the broadest stretch, anyway millions of Graves opening up and the dead raised to life as " secret"
That false baloney belongs to you.

But anyway, just keep on batting the air.
Keep up the misrepresentation.
You used to add some sybolence of intelligence to the discussion. Now you quote postribber talking points and misrepresent.

I agree that Paul said the Antichrist must be revealed 1st. But then he pinpoints exactly where Christ must come, and that is when he descends from heaven to destroy the Antichrist "with the breath of his mouth."

In other words, both elements are part of Paul's warning not to accept any premature Coming of Christ. He will come only when he comes to destroy Antichrist. And that means, Antichrist must be revealed 1st.

Why you cannot see this is beyond me? I chalk it up to your being brainwashed by Darbyism and by pop eschatology. You're not thinking like those who wrote the New Testament.

The biblical writers and Christians throughout history viewed the doctrine of the 2nd Coming as something originating from Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven. That's why Jesus said not to believe any premature supposed "Coming of the Son of Man."

He said he will *only* come when he descends from heaven and from the clouds to save his People. Any supposed "Coming" before this is false doctrine and false prophecy.

Stop reading Pretrib literature. Darby's Dispensationalism is only good for Jewish hope--not for good eschatology. Rely on the Bible and you'll be safe. Reading into the Bible is *not* safe!

 

[Randy Kluth]

"1830" is false..so you misrepresent the truth.

Assertions have no value without either evidence or proof. You can assert that a round earth "misrepresents the truth," and it would be meaningless..

Darby's Dispensationalism arose sometime around 1830. It did not exist prior to that. The combination of Imminency Doctrine and Pretribulation Doctrine did not exist as such before that. There may have been similarities in earlier eschatological systems, but nothing mainstream. Apparently, Christians missed this "obvious biblical doctrine" for 1800 years??

But following your belief the early Church fathers were infallible, you hopefully follow catholicism carefully ,and by all means never should you read "against heresy " by irenaeus.

I've read Irenaeus, and I'm not Catholic. However, Western Christianity essentially came from Catholicism, and I will not deny that nor reject it. Organized Christianity had its problems, but it also had its usefulness. The Reformation corrected some major Catholic abuses, and I embrace Protestantism for that reason. None of this has a thing to do with Pretribism.

He exposed multiple heresies by those dead men you claim are divinity, and follow blindly.

I've never followed anybody blindly. I've spent many years following evidential apologists--not brainwashed zombies like some of those who follow "Popular Christianity." Pretribism is a form of "Popular Christianity." Don't be a zombie!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The notion that the disappearance of millions of Christians would just simply be dismissed by the world and the media, and be quickly ignored is ludicrous. The upset in society by Christian drivers and operators would be enormous.

That's what I'm saying. Do they not even consider things like this? Apparently not. They don't seem too interested in things like logic, reason and common sense. Those things are too boring for them. They much prefer wild speculation and sensationalizing everything.

It is undoubtedly pure fiction. I don't know why more Pretribs do not express this embarrassment over proposing something so utterly ridiculous?

It boggles my mind. I have no answer for that.

And there are other obviously silly situations with Pretrib scenarios. One version has all real Christians disappearing only to have a small army of Christians suddenly rise up by their own bootstraps, learning how to become a Christian, maturing, and then becoming strong enough to become martyrs in the space of just 7 years!

LOL! That is beyond ludicrous, but that is what they really think will happen. It just defies all logic and common sense and, for whatever reason, they don't care.

Well, I think the whole problem is that the "Tribulation" is falsely depicted as "God's Wrath" upon the planet, as if it takes God 7 years to punish a wayward planet! Frankly, I think calling it "the Tribulation" or "God's Wrath" is a misnomer.

Yeah, not everyone is even talking about the same thing when they talk about "the great tribulation", so this whole post-trib vs. pretrib discussion can become quite confusing and pointless. If one person is talking about a time of persecution and using the term "tribulation" to describe that and another person is talking about God's wrath as "tribulation", then the discussion can go nowhere since each person is not even talking about the same thing. And then there's the matter of which tribulation someone is talking about. The local one that happened around 70 AD or one that occurs before Christ's return. Without any clarification of terms, these discussions become a huge mess sometimes with no one understanding the other.

As I've said many times, the term "Great Tribulation" has been lifted from Jesus' association with His wrath against NT Judaism and falsely applied to the Reign of Antichrist. The "Wrath of God" against the Antichrist obviously takes place largely at the end of his Reign, or he would be unable to reign at all!

I agree, other than I don't believe in the appearance of an indvidual "Antichrist", but we don't need to talk about that here.

I know there are other issues we are disagreed on in matters of biblical prophecy. But I do thank you for your position against Pretribism, which has taken over the "prophecy" section of Christian bookstores, and has created an unrealistic scenario, causing unbelievers to dismiss Christianity as "blind, muddled, and contradictory," or simply gullible.

Right. This is true in the U.S. much more than other countries. So, it's important to refute this nonsense so that it stops making us all look bad.

I know there are some issues in prophecy that we all have to resolve. But this issue is dealt with quite directly in the Scriptures. One has to ignore what the Bible teaches to promote a Pretrib teaching. The fact the belief system was created after 1830 only gives evidence that this belief was concocted by Man, and not the product of apostolic teaching.

Completely agree.

 

[BlessedPeace]

It's strange how people think God saves our souls yet won't save us from the wrath he sets against a fallen world itself.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So you believe that the historical Christian Church consisted solely of Catholics.

That would be typical modernist dispensational delusionism.

No
You got it wrong
I am saying that postribbers try to cherry pick what the church fathers say as infallible

I am saying they had MANY,MANY,MANY things wrong
( such as the incomplete revelation of end times)
While you guys take EVERY FALSE DOCTRINE OF THEIRS as infallible??????
Really???
IOW...I have never seen a postribber acknowledge the fact that they were wrong about anything???
Now why us that????
They were wrong in so many dimensions. Whe postrbbers imply they were infallible.
But the irony is that postribbers go to FALLABLE dead men, to disprove the Bible

Postrib is so poorly thought out.
You guys are solidly on damage control

But the kicker is that several writings have been found that the early writings HAD THE PRETRIB RAPTURE IN THEIR DOCTRINE!!!

So all of you need that education,
Or just keep acting like you have some make believe smoking gun.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Assertions have no value without either evidence or proof. You can assert that a round earth "misrepresents the truth," and it would be meaningless..

Darby's Dispensationalism arose sometime around 1830. It did not exist prior to that. The combination of Imminency Doctrine and Pretribulation Doctrine did not exist as such before that. There may have been similarities in earlier eschatological systems, but nothing mainstream. Apparently, Christians missed this "obvious biblical doctrine" for 1800 years??

I've read Irenaeus, and I'm not Catholic. However, Western Christianity essentially came from Catholicism, and I will not deny that nor reject it. Organized Christianity had its problems, but it also had its usefulness. The Reformation corrected some major Catholic abuses, and I embrace Protestantism for that reason. None of this has a thing to do with Pretribism.

I've never followed anybody blindly. I've spent many years following evidential apologists--not brainwashed zombies like some of those who follow "Popular Christianity." Pretribism is a form of "Popular Christianity." Don't be a zombie!

The 1830 claim, is that a man ORIGINATED the pretrib rapture doctrine.
So, you, and all POSTRIBBERS, CLAIM that FALSELY.
YOUR claim has been debunked years ago

Now that you know that, and possibly defend that lie. ....
What will that make you?
A tiny bit of investigation will clear the eggs on face dynamic.
Call it " I have been schooled by my zombie brother"
Sad you call a brother that.
Very sad and ghetto.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's what I'm saying. Do they not even consider things like this? Apparently not. They don't seem too interested in things like logic, reason and common sense. Those things are too boring for them. They much prefer wild speculation and sensationalizing everything.


It boggles my mind. I have no answer for that.


LOL! That is beyond ludicrous, but that is what they really think will happen. It just defies all logic and common sense and, for whatever reason, they don't care.


Yeah, not everyone is even talking about the same thing when they talk about "the great tribulation", so this whole post-trib vs. pretrib discussion can become quite confusing and pointless. If one person is talking about a time of persecution and using the term "tribulation" to describe that and another person is talking about God's wrath as "tribulation", then the discussion can go nowhere since each person is not even talking about the same thing. And then there's the matter of which tribulation someone is talking about. The local one that happened around 70 AD or one that occurs before Christ's return. Without any clarification of terms, these discussions become a huge mess sometimes with no one understanding the other.


I agree, other than I don't believe in the appearance of an indvidual "Antichrist", but we don't need to talk about that here.


Right. This is true in the U.S. much more than other countries. So, it's important to refute this nonsense so that it stops making us all look bad.


Completely agree.

Bottom line.
The pretrib rapture verses that all of you ignore or rewrite, are not going away.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I totally get their fear. I cannot, for example, pray, "Lord, test me with the best you've got!" ;) That goes against our nature. Jesus prayed, "Lord, take this cup away from me. Nevertheless, your will be done."

But when we do have problems, it's therapeutic to know we've been called to a measure of suffering, and are given help in standing up. And we actually feel quite good when we succeed. :)

Mind you, I pray for blessings too! :)

No fear
I can easily and quite handily defend the pretrib rapture doctrine, as you and all challengers have demonstrated.
You invoke every postribber pop gun.
"Darby"
" zombie"
"1830"
"dispensation"

Yawn

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus did *not* say there is a 3rd Coming of Christ that is prior to the Flood! ;) Jesus compared the one 2nd Coming to the Flood scenario in Noah's Day. And the comparable element was that in both scenarios, people were wicked across civilization and unbelieving, or unwilling to repent. That has nothing whatsoever to do with adding another 2nd Coming, or with calling it a "Pre-Flood Coming!"

What an utterly twisted statement!

There is no Pre-Flood Coming of Christ, since the Flood was many years before the Last Days. You are twisting Scripture to maneuver your own false theology into the text.

The doctrine I use are explicit statements that Paul used in 2 Thes 2, in which he associated the one 2nd Coming with the fall of Antichrist. You are rejecting that, and you will have to live with that.

You are gaslighting. Nobody is intimidated on the Postrib side. Bible doctrine gives me peace.

You have so little peace that you have to resort to insulting characterizations. I am not desperate. I'm not worried. I'm not fighting anything.

On the other hand, you sound so desperate that you're willing to lose your Christian attitude. I have no wish to see that happen to you.

You're not sorry about anything. We disagree--simple as that. If you lose sleep, that's on you--not me.

QUOTE
"There is no Pre-Flood Coming of Christ, since the Flood was many years before the Last Days. You are twisting Scripture to maneuver your own false theology into the text."

Here is Jesus's false theology and twisting:
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Read it for yourself and put it through the postribber workbook and POOOF!!!
1) PREFLOOD dissappears magically.
2) normal life setting dissappears magically
3) "one take one left" becomes whatever we need it to say( but it can not say what it does, and we can not mention the ratio of taken,left)
4) the "watch and be ready part", we will never admit it!!!!( because it makes no sense in our doctrine)

Whew...and you defend all that????
That is either totally dishonesty or invincible ignorance.
Take it up with Jesus.
He said it.
I just reported it and watch you guys grab egg and do that weird face smear.
You guys are solidly against the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You miss the point. There being two separate stories with their own details and their own chronologies, comparing those elements confuse them if they are not part of what's being compared!

For example, in the parable of the 10 Virgins you have 10 Virgins, 5 being unprepared and 5 being prepared. You say that the 50% ratio is relevant in the comparison when we are not told that!

That is a detail relevant to the parable, and not to what it is being compared to with respect to Christ's Coming. The 50% number could simply reflect an equal choice in the matter of preparing for the Groom rather than an exact ratio and number of those preparing for Christ's Coming.

In the matter of the Flood you are asserting that the historical matter of "peace time" is relevant and being compared to a supposed "peace time" before Christ's Coming. We are not, however, told that.

Peace time may or may not have even existed in Noah's day, there being a much different population size in the civilization and less political groups to wage war. The presence of intense wickedness would *not* suggest, at any rate, "peace time!"

Obviously, conditions in Noah's day would be described differently than conditions in the endtimes. Political strife within a single civilization obviously has to be described differently than political strife throughout the endtimes world!

Comparing these matters is not given to be relevant to the comparison. It's *you* who try to make this relevant for the sake of your theory.

And that is the whole point. You are comparing conditions related to each historical event which are unimportant with respect to the compared elements. A parable is not going to be described in the same way as the thing it represents. The example of judgment in the Flood event is not going to be described in the same way as an endtime event it is being compared to.

Using parables and historical events for purposes of comparison only serve to give very basic equivalences--not exact equivalences of elements that are reserved to each event. This is the whole reason we use the Bible to express explicit doctrine, and do not use "hints" and "subjective revelations" in an attempt to "prove" theories.

We can use parables and symbols to say anything we want them to say if we do not have explicit factual statements in the Bible. Only when the Scriptures rise to the level of doctrine do we have a basis for true biblical doctrine. That is the point.

Lol
You just made a case for jettisoning the components.

Thank you for demonstrating your need to omit , rewrite, minimize, and reframe.
Man....too funny!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The 1830 claim, is that a man ORIGINATED the pretrib rapture doctrine.
So, you, and all POSTRIBBERS, CLAIM that FALSELY.
YOUR claim has been debunked years ago

Now that you know that, and possibly defend that lie. ....
What will that make you?
A tiny bit of investigation will clear the eggs on face dynamic.
Call it " I have been schooled by my zombie brother"
Sad you call a brother that.
Very sad and ghetto.

Again, assertions have zero value. I've been following the Pretrib Rapture theory since Hal Lindsey's book "The Late Great Planet Earth." I read McPherson's "The Incredible Coverup" when it 1st came out. I've heard the complaints and the claims that Pretrib beliefs preexisted 1830s, and know that there have been limited kinds of Pretrib beliefs at various times in Christian history.

I read Ladd's Book, "The Blessed Hope," and Gundry's book, "The Church and the Tribulation," back in the 70s. I read Walvoord's work on this matter, and have read or listened to countless messages based on Dispensational Doctrine--I've attended Pretrib churches for decades. Pretrib is part of pop culture in American Christianity, and has been held by some of the most beloved Christian figures. It is in books, in movies, and in songs. But it is wrong.

I've not denied but have answered the matter of Pretrib beliefs prior to 1830. They were not mainstream movements that became any fixed historical eschatology. The Imminency Doctrine in its earlier form was not really the belief that "Jesus can come today," but that he is near. This was believed by Postribs and did not reflect true Imminency Doctrine.

There have been various forms of what today is called "Prewrath," but it is hardly Pretrib. It simply has the Church escaping just prior to the 2nd Coming and its judgment in order to spare the Church devasting judgments meant to afflict the ungodly. It still is not Pretrib.

Thomas Ice argues that there were early forms of Imminency Doctrine and Pretrib escape from God's Wrath. But this does not necessarily imply that the universal Church escapes the "Tribulation Period," since clearly, it had to be acknowledged that Antichrist persecutes Christians in the "Tribulation Period."

Some Christians, like Enoch and Elijah, may be translated prematurely, but this does not mean the entire Church will escape the ravages of the Antichrist. Certainly God at times delivers Christians from troubled times, but even great saints like the Prophet Jeremiah were not given to escape persecution and trouble.

What is unique about Darbyism and 1830 is the novel modern eschatology that unites Imminency Doctrine and Pretrib Belief viewing the entire Reign of Antichrist as distinct from the Church Age. This is to accommodate Dispensationalism and its separation of Church Age and Israeli age into two separate ages.

Go ahead and make your claims. I have no respect for it because you show no knowledge of any of these matters. You just assert things and try to produce conviction by appealing to emotion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

QUOTE
"There is no Pre-Flood Coming of Christ, since the Flood was many years before the Last Days. You are twisting Scripture to maneuver your own false theology into the text."

Here is Jesus's false theology and twisting:
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This did not indicate Jesus' 2nd Coming will be before the Flood. The Flood happened a long time ago.

Rather, Jesus compared the 2nd Coming to the time of the Flood because at that time people rejected the preaching and warnings of Noah. In the same way Jesus knew that Israel was ignoring his own preaching and warnings of imminent judgment upon Israel, as well as judgment upon human souls. Israel continued, largely, in their wickedness and sin.

None of this implies that the 2nd Coming will mean escape from the time of God's judgment--only escape from God's judgment upon the soul itself, which is Eternal Judgment. Noah went through the time of the Flood, but escaped judgment upon his soul. Those who die as martyrs during the Reign of Antichrist are not experiencing God's Judgment. They are escaping God's judgment upon their *souls.*

As I told you, physical judgment and eternal judgment are comparable but are essentially distinct. One can go through a temporal judgment without suffering the judgment of their soul. I quoted biblical passages in this regard.

Heb 12.25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Lol
You just made a case for jettisoning the components.

Thank you for demonstrating your need to omit , rewrite, minimize, and reframe.
Man....too funny!!!

Why are you entertained by serious disagreements? My point was that parables cannot be compared by associating each feature of the story with some supposed equivalency unless that is given as the object of the parable.

The parable is not the thing is represents. It is more or less symbolic of what it represents. Searching for exact equivalences that serve the purpose of your theology is not the purpose of the parable, but only your own agenda.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again, assertions have zero value. I've been following the Pretrib Rapture theory since Hal Lindsey's book "The Late Great Planet Earth." I read McPherson's "The Incredible Coverup" when it 1st came out. I've heard the complaints and the claims that Pretrib beliefs preexisted 1830s, and know that there have been limited kinds of Pretrib beliefs at various times in Christian history.

I read Ladd's Book, "The Blessed Hope," and Gundry's book, "The Church and the Tribulation," back in the 70s. I read Walvoord's work on this matter, and have read or listened to countless messages based on Dispensational Doctrine--I've attended Pretrib churches for decades. Pretrib is part of pop culture in American Christianity, and has been held by some of the most beloved Christian figures. It is in books, in movies, and in songs. But it is wrong.

I've not denied but have answered the matter of Pretrib beliefs prior to 1830. They were not mainstream movements that became any fixed historical eschatology. The Imminency Doctrine in its earlier form was not really the belief that "Jesus can come today," but that he is near. This was believed by Postribs and did not reflect true Imminency Doctrine.

There have been various forms of what today is called "Prewrath," but it is hardly Pretrib. It simply has the Church escaping just prior to the 2nd Coming and its judgment in order to spare the Church devasting judgments meant to afflict the ungodly. It still is not Pretrib.

Thomas Ice argues that there were early forms of Imminency Doctrine and Pretrib escape from God's Wrath. But this does not necessarily imply that the universal Church escapes the "Tribulation Period," since clearly, it had to be acknowledged that Antichrist persecutes Christians in the "Tribulation Period."

Some Christians, like Enoch and Elijah, may be translated prematurely, but this does not mean the entire Church will escape the ravages of the Antichrist. Certainly God at times delivers Christians from troubled times, but even great saints like the Prophet Jeremiah were not given to escape persecution and trouble.

What is unique about Darbyism and 1830 is the novel modern eschatology that unites Imminency Doctrine and Pretrib Belief viewing the entire Reign of Antichrist as distinct from the Church Age. This is to accommodate Dispensationalism and its separation of Church Age and Israeli age into two separate ages.

Go ahead and make your claims. I have no respect for it because you show no knowledge of any of these matters. You just assert things and try to produce conviction by appealing to emotion.

Go ahead and make those claims while reframing:
"before the flood ",
"one taken, and one left behind",
" watch and be ready before the flood/trib"
Yep go for it.

So, a gathering DURING THE TRIB, of jewish main harvest IN rev14:14.
****************AND****************
TWO SEPARATE GATHERINGS IN MAT 24..

Meanwhile you focus on what some ancients erroneously believed..Got it!

THE elephant in the room is invoking some ridiculous Darby card, while at the SAME TIME invoking dead ancients as infallible...???
Lol...basically declaring your doctrine came from men????
Lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why are you entertained by serious disagreements? My point was that parables cannot be compared by associating each feature of the story with some supposed equivalency unless that is given as the object of the parable.

The parable is not the thing is represents. It is more or less symbolic of what it represents. Searching for exact equivalences that serve the purpose of your theology is not the purpose of the parable, but only your own agenda.

Ok got it.
Nothing about parables is relevant

( you literally can not make this stuff up