Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
That would be my brother (we share the same father and mother). I usually defer to him on Biblical Language issues. And yes, he agrees with your version of the Day of Entry/7 Day period.
The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture
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He is totally contradicting the actual wording, context and supporting NT teaching from Christ. Is he a Premil?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So is WPM. Why are you acting as if he called them something else? As he said, in your view they are the lastfruits rather than the firstfruits.
Why can't it be the same firstfruits that James wrote about? Ever hear of interpreting scripture with scripture?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting......18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The souls of these firstfruits Israelite believers are in heaven with Jesus now.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
They are called firstfruits. The 12 disciples were also firstfruits. 12 is half of 24. Could there be 12 OT firstfruits?
Now you add 144k to the 24 from the past, so why are there 24 plus 144k firstfruits of the early church, when the 144k are associated with the Second Coming? The 24 elders were already accounted for before the 144k were even sealed on the earth. Who are people waiting for in Revelation 6:11?
"That they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
Would not putting on robes of white putting on a body or something on over the soul at the least? You claim getting a body can only happen once, and these people are in heaven, no? Not on the earth as naked souls.
Those waiting are still waiting before the 144k are even sealed and these 144k are changed into impervious physical bodies so they are not hurt nor killed. So what is being killed in that context other than changing from corruption to incorruption? Why do you stop at killing the flesh, but never replacing that flesh with something better?
Why would the 144k not be the same in chapter 7, 14, and then in Revelation 19? They are said to go everywhere Jesus goes. How can they be coming back, if they never left at some point? They were not born in heaven.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Uh huh.
In a sense, I suppose, but they were never referred to as such in scripture.
I'm not much into speculation. What are you getting at here?
Where does it say that the 144,000 are associated with the second coming of Christ? Be specific. Don't just quote whatever verses you think show that. Show me exactly why you think those verses are referring to the second coming.
They are not literal robes. It's symbolic language. Look at this:
Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
So, the white robes and white linen and such mentioned in Revelation symbolically represent "the righteous acts of God's holy people".
Their souls are in heaven. But, you don't believe people have souls, so you will just never understand.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
You seem to say that with the same tone that false prophets are spoken about, or prosperity preachers, with a very negative connotation to it and I find that odd for a couple reasons. So let me ask you a question:
Suppose a pretrib rapture preacher convinces a whole lot of people about the pretrib rapture. Which may scare the pee out of some of them and have them worried that they may be left behind in the pretrib rapture...Can you tell me if these pretribbers start walking the pretrib path and are all looking out the window for Jesus, praying more and all that, ok?
Wherein is the evil that these people would be subject to or accountable for by taking a pretrib stance? So they were watching a long time before you were. Watching for the Lord, Jesus? What have they done wrong or evil by looking for Jesus before the tribulation period?
If a pretrib raoture is false, then would the pretrib preacher be given unto evil by teaching to start watching sooner rather than later? Even if (big If) it was wrong, wherein is the preachers evil?
I've asked that a couple times here and so far no posttribber has bothered to answer me. WIll you?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The potential problem with teaching a pre-trib rapture, other than it being a false doctrine, is that it can lead people to think that they don't need to worry about going through persecution and tribulation and such because they think they will either die first or be taken away (raptured) from it before it happens. That can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of preparedness for hardship.
But, as Christians, we should know that we will all go through persecution and tribulation in our lives.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Can anyone tell us why the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD?
It's right in Daniel 9 as a prophecy and then in the NT it is confirmed by Jesus Himself. The 70 weels of desolation was put upon Israel because they did not know the time of His coming. They were not watching for Him.
Luke 19:43-44
43 Before long your enemies will build ramparts against your walls and encircle you and close in on you from every side.
44 They will crush you into the ground, and your children with you. Your enemies will not leave a single stone in place, because you did not recognize it when God visited you.[a]”.../NLT
And I think there is an implied warning to us in there about the (pretrib) Rapture. If you're watching for Him and expecting Him...then you don't have to go through the tribulation.
If you wasn't watching for Him? Welcome to the Tribulation friend.
It's right in Daniel 9 as a prophecy and then in the NT it is confirmed by Jesus Himself. The 70 weels of desolation was put upon Israel because they did not know the time of His coming. They were not watching for Him.
Luke 19:43-44
43 Before long your enemies will build ramparts against your walls and encircle you and close in on you from every side.
44 They will crush you into the ground, and your children with you. Your enemies will not leave a single stone in place, because you did not recognize it when God visited you.[a]”.../NLT
And I think there is an implied warning to us in there about the (pretrib) Rapture. If you're watching for Him and expecting Him...then you don't have to go through the tribulation.
If you wasn't watching for Him? Welcome to the Tribulation friend.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Ugh. So, you are trying to say that anyone who doesn't believe in the pre-trib rapture theory will have to go through the tribulation? Show me the scripture which says that someone's end times beliefs determine whether or not they will be caught up to meet the Lord when He comes. Silly me, I thought it depended on whether someone belongs to Christ or not, regardless of what end times doctrine they believe in.
As for what happened in 70 AD, the ones who were destroyed were unbelievers. Only unbelievers didn't believe what Jesus said in passages like Luke 19:41-44 and Luke 21:20-24. The ones who were destroyed experienced God's wrath, which never comes down on believers.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Who worries? He has not given me a spirit of fear. I dont think you can credibly call it a false doctrine either. You havent proved a postrib rapture. You state your beliefs, and that's ok. But you havent proved that a pretrib rapture is false doctrine. So are you saying that, it's not neccessarily evil to believe it, just that you do not believe it?
Scripture clearly says that in this world, we shall have tribulations and persecution. Even as Believers. Especially as Believers. But it never says we go through the Great Tribulation. A time on earth such as the world has never seen before, nor ever will again. So there's a mighty big difference between tribulations such as are common to man, and The Great Tribulation. Big big difference.
Not only that but it says in multiple places in scripture that the church (Bride) is not appointed to wrath.
Is pretrib doctrine an evil doctrine, or not?
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I think it does!
Here's one:
Matthew 24:43-47
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.../KJV
I think there's more scriptures than this too. Want more?
It is hard to believe that you are so fixated with a doctrine you cannot even prove. You have been given multiple opportunities and you are unable to provide one single prooftext. That is startling. You do no seem to need the inspired text to support what you have been taught. Sad! Yet you still insist in forcing it into text after text where it is not mentioned and doesn't belong. Only a certain type of Christian can stomach such an extra-biblical theory. A Berean couldn't. They depend upon corroborated Scripture.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Notice I said that is a POTENTIAL problem with believing in a pre-trib rapture. Doesn't mean that will be the case for everyone who believes in it. Understand?
Yes, I can and I did.
I believe I have.
I believe I have.
Yes, of course. Why would it be evil to be mistaken about a doctrine that is not essential to salvation?
You and I see that. Some don't. Believe me, I have come across those people. They are ignorant about what scripture teaches beyond the basics.
What exactly is your understanding of "the Great Tribulation"? What is it exactly and how long do you think it lasts? You may recall that I pointed out how our understanding of it isn't the same? Yet, I still don't know exactly what your understanding is of that term other than you said it refers to God's wrath.
No, not really. Some people go through some really terrible things in their lives. Think about the kind of things Christians in Middle Eastern countries, some African countries and China have been through. Absolutely horrible persecution. And think about what people have been through during earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, famines and so on. This "Great Tribulation" that you speak about won't be any worse for those people than what they've already been through.
You know that I've told you several times now that I agree with that, right? But, why would there be any need to be taken off of the earth any time before God's wrath comes down on literally the entire earth like we see described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?
No. Never said it was. It's just false (not true).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are sadly mistaken. Do you understand that it will be the church, the bride of Christ, that will be caught up in the rapture? So, therefore, what you are saying is that you think people have to believe in a pre-trib rapture to be part of the church! Are you kidding me? That is complete nonsense! Please think about this.
Where do you get the idea that only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are watching and making themselves ready for Christ's return? Part of watching is watching and paying attention to what is going on in your life and in the world. You don't have to believe in pre-trib to do that.
Also, why did you stop at verse 47? If you keep reading, we can see what you are actually implying about those who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Look what happens to those who don't watch, which you think are only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture. They end up in the same place as the hypocrites where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Do you understand that is talking about hell or the lake of fire? Which would mean you're saying that those who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture will end up in the lake of fire. Is that really what you believe? Or would you like to give this more thought?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You left out the verse that says:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Is this a third group of people to you?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The wedding feast in Revelation 19 is with Israel, not the church.
You mean the churches that existed 1900 years ago?
Why has the church been enjoying Paradise for 1900 years without a marriage from the first century? Is waiting another thousand years that bad? Israel has been waiting 2000 years. Revelation is about Israel, even though it was addressed to the church. The church has rejected God's plan to still work with Israel at the Second Coming. They (amil and historist) declare all is over at the Second Coming, and Israel lost out thousands of years ago, since 720BC, tough luck!
Davy
Well-Known Member
As I had said, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Post-mill means AFTER... the future Millennium. The future Millennium is the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His gathered elect Church. Jesus returns on the LAST DAY of THIS PRESENT WORLD, PRIOR TO THE MILLENNIUM. That's what I... believe, because that is what is written in God's Word.
Thus what you are claiming that I believe is a LIE, and YOU WELL KNOW IT because obviously you have a hard time understanding what people say.
Davy
Well-Known Member
If you are going to quote people, you need to keep it in the context it was written. You only quoted one little sentence of mine...
I said:
"One of the false teachings by many preachers today, especially the pre-trib rapture preachers, is that the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world is going to be a time of all out chaos and WWIII, etc.
That is NOT what God's Word teaches
Revelation 13:4-8 reveals that the whole... world (except Christ's elect) will worship the "dragon" (Satan). That means they will be DECEIVED into false worship by the coming Antichrist. Will the coming Antichrist do war upon his own that are deceived into worshiping him? Of course not.
That is how the coming "great tribulation" will manifest upon the DECEIVED. They will be tricked into worship of the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah thinking he is God. And that's for the WHOLE WORLD, excepting Christ's elect."
That kind of teaching, doomsday, WWIII, absolute chaos, death and famine, etc., aka Hal Lindsay, is EXACTLY WHAT THE PREACHERS ON THE FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE teach. It is to try and SCARE the Christian to believe in the false pre-trib rapture prior to the "great tribulation".
Now the time just PRIOR... to the "great tribulation", what Jesus called the "beginning of sorrows", is when the chaos, famine, pestilences, wars, etc., are to happen, but NOT the actual time of "great tribulation" when the false-Messiah will come to power as king in Jerusalem peacefully with craft prospering by his hand (Daniel 8). It's the time of "great tribulation" when he will place the "abomination of desolation" idol in JERUSALEM.
Some pre-trib rapture doctors are even now trying to claim the "day of the Lord" happens PRIOR TO THE "great tribulation", when it does not per God's Word! They lie about that because of how the day of Jesus' future return to gather His Church is linked with that "day of the Lord" timing! And the pre-trib rapture doctors can't have the Biblical fact that the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns is actually written to occur AFTER the great tribulation, because that would mess up their False Pre-trib Rapture teaching!
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