The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pretribbers are experts at claiming things but slow to furnish actual relevant Scripture. That is because their doctrine cannot be found in the sacred text, it has to be foisted upon it.

Quote the passages you are claiming that support your doctrine. Highlight where they supposedly say what you say. Until you do that, this discussion is going to work.

I think it's easier to pull teeth than to get them to actually quote scripture and break down how exactly they understand it. The reason they don't do this is obvious. It's because they know they can't do it convincingly. They know that they have no clear scripture that they can present which clearly teaches their doctrine.

 

[The Light]

You keep saying this but cannot bring any concrete Scripture to prove that.

You seem unable to understand that the Lord is coming in a time you think not. Do you need concrete scripture for that?

You have done a great job understanding that there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation. The problem is you have no clue who is being raptured. They sing the song of Moses. Do I need to repost concrete scripture for that?

Additionally, you have no concept that the Great Tribulation is brought against Israel and her seed. Do you need me to repost scripture for that? And you have yet to figure out that the tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God. Do I need to repost scripture for that.

Many of you are so wrapped up in a doctrine that was birthed by unbelieving men that you reject the written Word. I could post hundreds of scriptures and you will not be able to understand. Some see, some don't.

There is a reason there are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish. The foolish are not ready, as He will come in an hour that they think not.

 

[The Light]

I think it's easier to pull teeth than to get them to actually quote scripture and break down how exactly they understand it. The reason they don't do this is obvious. It's because they know they can't do it convincingly. They know that they have no clear scripture that they can present which clearly teaches their doctrine.

I have posted scripture and you reject it.

Among dozens of other things, I showed you where they were eating and drinking until the day Noah was shut in the ark. That was 6 days before the flood. And you responded that it didn't sense that Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

It DOES NOT MATTER what you think makes sense. It matters what is written. Until you accept the written Word of God you will not understand.

 

[The Light]

Pretribbers are experts at claiming things but slow to furnish actual relevant Scripture. That is because their doctrine cannot be found in the sacred text, it has to be foisted upon it.

Quote the passages you are claiming that support your doctrine. Highlight where they supposedly say what you say. Until you do that, this discussion is going nowhere.

Here is a scripture that supports a pretrib rapture.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Here's another.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We are told to watch.........be ready............pray always.........that we are worthy...........to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS.......that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not at all. This text does not say what you want it to say. Jesus and the New Testament remove any ambiguity on the subject. He shows that the day Noah went into the ark the flood came and all the wicked were destroyed. That is what is going to happen when Jesus comes.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus words support my position and damn your doctrine. They show what that "self-same day" was - "the day" of destruction, thus the 7th day. Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wholesale wiped out.

Pretribbers consistently try to explain away the clear and explicit New Testament narrative to support their faulty opinion of the vaguer Old Testament narrative. They invent obscure extra-biblical theories to reinforces their beliefs. They have to!

The reason why Pretribbers insist on such obscure theories is because they do not have any biblical support in either the Old or the New Testament. There is no where in scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

Anyway, what has seven days notice anything to do with a supposed future seven-year tribulation? Nothing! That is how nonsensical Pretrib is.

Good point. The day of Noah's deliverance was the same day the wicked were judged and destroyed. This is *not* Pretrib!

 

[The Light]

Good point. The day of Noah's deliverance was the same day the wicked were judged and destroyed. This is *not* Pretrib!

Bad point. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

 

[The Light]

Not at all. This text does not say what you want it to say. Jesus and the New Testament remove any ambiguity on the subject. He shows that the day Noah went into the ark the flood came and all the wicked were destroyed. That is what is going to happen when Jesus comes.

The text says God shut the door six days before the flood.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus words support my position and damn your doctrine. They show what that "self-same day" was - "the day" of destruction, thus the 7th day. Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wholesale wiped out.

Noah is told to enter the ark, told in 7 days the flood will come. Noah loads the animals on the first day and the door is shut. The flood comes at the end of the 7 days.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Pretribbers consistently try to explain away the clear and explicit New Testament narrative to support their faulty opinion of the vaguer Old Testament narrative. They invent obscure extra-biblical theories to reinforces their beliefs. They have to!

When the truth challenges your doctrine, you probably should go with the truth.

The reason why Pretribbers insist on such obscure theories is because they do not have any biblical support in either the Old or the New Testament.

The reason we believe in a pretrib rapture is because we are told we can escape ALL THESE THING that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

There is no where in scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation,

Good. You are starting to understand. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

(3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

Anyway, what has seven days notice anything to do with a supposed future seven-year tribulation? Nothing! That is how nonsensical Pretrib is.

The Lord says He is coming in an hour that we think not. Yes, He is coming immediately after the tribulation. But the Church will be gone before He comes for the second harvest.

 

[Timtofly]

You just say a bunch of things without really thinking about it or doing any research. Do you expect to be taken seriously when that is the case? Did you bother looking to see what the word "rise" means in this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I'm sure you didn't even bother doing any research to see what the word "rise" here means.

Well, I did the research. The word "rise" there was translated from the Greek word "anistēmi" (Strong's G450). It has a few different meanings. It can mean to rise up or stand up from a laying down or sitting position. It can mean to rise up from the dead. Or it can mean to bring something forward or cause something to appear. It never means to rise up off of the earth into the air.

It is used in these verses:

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Obviously, the word is used here to described Jesus rising from the dead. That is how it is used in 1 Thess 4:16 as well. It's saying that the bodily dead in Christ will bodily rise from the dead first. And then after that they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. We all will be changed to have incorruptible bodies at that time since Paul said we will all be changed at the same time (1 Cor 15:51-52).


No, he did not teach that there. Why would he teach that there and go on to contradict himself shortly after that as well as contradicting what he had written in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 where he very clearly indicated that ALL will be changed to have an incorruptible body at the same time, which will be when the last trumpet sounds.


No, he said all and he specifically referenced the dead as being included as well. They will be resurrected at the last trumpet and then all of them as well as all who are alive will be changed to have incorruptible bodies. So, your doctrine blatantly contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Taking a word out if context, and even comparing it to other passages is not always the proper interpretation.

I thought we were going to leave petty insults out of the discussion...? Guess not.

My post may offend you, or may not even be understood, but lacking due diligence is just an insulting form of discussion.

Since the word in context is rising up from a location, and being brought with Christ, your interpretation of souls traveling without a body; is that before they arise from Paradise, in the air, or do these souls arise with Jesus at the same time with their adamic dead physical body arising from the earth?

Seems simple enough that those in Paradise arise from Paradise, come with Jesus, and meet those who arise from the earth. They arise first which makes sense, because they come with Christ.

Are they physically dead, or just in Christ alive, but physically not present on the earth? They are not spiritually dead. It is your bias that demands a single resurrection at this moment, when none is even explicit nor inferred. Even you acknowledged the word could mean to rise up. Since these could have physical bodies just like Jesus and they come after rising up first, it is in the same context as those rising from the earth who are changed, not necessarily killed and resurrected. If those on earth are not physically dead, why assume in context those in Paradise are?

I have already pointed out that Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 already said no naked souls were in Paradise. Your interpretation is forcing a contradiction with Paul. All will be changed by that point, obviously. Most have already been changed since Paul said "we". Even Paul has been changed as he was changed in the future after writing those words. No one living on earth at any point in time has prevented that change from happening, not even with doctrinal bias. Paul did not prevent the entire OT redeemed from a physical resurrection at the Cross. The hour of resurrection and change started when Lazarus came out of his tomb

 

[WPM]

Bad point. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

It doesn't say that. You say that. You cannot show that. You are fighting with Jesus. Not wise!

 

[WPM]

Here is a scripture that supports a pretrib rapture.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Here's another.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We are told to watch.........be ready............pray always.........that we are worthy...........to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS.......that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Instead of making these wild unsubstantiated statements, can you prove what you are actually saying. There is zero exegesis of texts in your posts because they do not say what you claim. You are manipulating Scripture to support your beliefs.

 

[WPM]

You seem unable to understand that the Lord is coming in a time you think not. Do you need concrete scripture for that?

You have done a great job understanding that there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation. The problem is you have no clue who is being raptured. They sing the song of Moses. Do I need to repost concrete scripture for that?

Additionally, you have no concept that the Great Tribulation is brought against Israel and her seed. Do you need me to repost scripture for that? And you have yet to figure out that the tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God. Do I need to repost scripture for that.

Many of you are so wrapped up in a doctrine that was birthed by unbelieving men that you reject the written Word. I could post hundreds of scriptures and you will not be able to understand. Some see, some don't.

There is a reason there are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish. The foolish are not ready, as He will come in an hour that they think not.

Let us take one Scripture at a time, because when your opinion of one text is refuted, you quickly move unto another. That is the only way your argument is sustained.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

Do you believe this is talking about the coming of the Lord and the rapture?

 

[The Light]

This is a baseless claim.

No. Not at all.

It seems that your entire reasoning for seeing those as referring to two different raptures is because one mentions angels and one doesn't.

If you think that is my reasoning you probably have not been reading my posts.

Do you understand how ridiculous it is to make a man-made rule like that which says that two passages can't be referring to the same event unless they contain all the same details?

I didn't make any rule.

No wonder you believe in 5 raptures (I think...is that correct?). You apparently don't think any event is ever referred to more than once in scripture.

Let's see.

The Lord comes for the dead in Christ. That is the spring barley harvest.

The Lord returns for the alive that remained. That is the summer wheat harvest. These together make up the grain harvest.

After the wheat harvest, the blindness is removed from part of Israel, and they will know what happened.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Then 144,000 from the 12 tribes are raptured as first fruits of the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then the harvest comes which is the gathering from heaven and earth. The seed of the woman is gathered from the earth seen here.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

They are singing the song of Moses seen here.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Then the two witness are raptured seen here.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


So yeah. 5 more raptures. If you don't see the rapture of the 144,000, the rapture at the harvest itself and the rapture of the two witnesses something is wrong.

 

[WPM]

No. Not at all.


If you think that is my reasoning you probably have not been reading my posts.


I didn't make any rule.


Let's see.

The Lord comes for the dead in Christ. That is the spring barley harvest.

The Lord returns for the alive that remained. That is the summer wheat harvest. These together make up the grain harvest.

After the wheat harvest, the blindness is removed from part of Israel, and they will know what happened.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Then 144,000 from the 12 tribes are raptured as first fruits of the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then the harvest comes which is the gathering from heaven and earth. The seed of the woman is gathered from the earth seen here.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

They are singing the song of Moses seen here.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Then the two witness are raptured seen here.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


So yeah. 5 more raptures. If you don't see the rapture of the 144,000, the rapture at the harvest itself and the rapture of the two witnesses something is wrong.

2+2+2+2+2= 8 not 2222

 

[The Light]

Instead of making these wild unsubstantiated statements, can you prove what you are actually saying. There is zero exegesis of texts in your posts because they do not say what you claim. You are manipulating Scripture to support your beliefs.

What part did I manipulate? Was it the watch and be ready because we don't know the hour the Lord will come. Or is it the pray that you are worthy to escape all these things that have come to pass and stand before the son of man.

Or did I manipulate both? Please explain.

 

[jeffweeder]

Seems simple enough that those in Paradise arise from Paradise, come with Jesus, and meet those who arise from the earth. They arise first which makes sense, because they come with Christ.

The opposite seems to be true,

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!


1- The Lord descends from heaven
2- Then the dead in Christ rise,
3- The alive in Christ simultaneously rise with the dead to meet the Lord. (twinkling of an eye moment)

 

[The Light]

2+2+2+2+2= 8 not 2222

Exactly. 144,000 from the twelve tribes = 144,000 from the 12 tribes. It does not equal the Chruch.

 

[WPM]

The text says God shut the door six days before the flood.


Noah is told to enter the ark, told in 7 days the flood will come. Noah loads the animals on the first day and the door is shut. The flood comes at the end of the 7 days.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.


When the truth challenges your doctrine, you probably should go with the truth.


The reason we believe in a pretrib rapture is because we are told we can escape ALL THESE THING that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.


Good. You are starting to understand. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.


The Lord says He is coming in an hour that we think not. Yes, He is coming immediately after the tribulation. But the Church will be gone before He comes for the second harvest.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Look at what Jesus is saying here and show me where he talks about waiting 7 days. You are adding unto Scripture. You are also making Jesus out to be a liar.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. 144,000 from the twelve tribes = 144,000 from the 12 tribes. It does not equal the Chruch.

You don't get it do you?

 

[WPM]

The text says God shut the door six days before the flood.


Noah is told to enter the ark, told in 7 days the flood will come. Noah loads the animals on the first day and the door is shut. The flood comes at the end of the 7 days.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.


When the truth challenges your doctrine, you probably should go with the truth.


The reason we believe in a pretrib rapture is because we are told we can escape ALL THESE THING that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.


Good. You are starting to understand. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.


The Lord says He is coming in an hour that we think not. Yes, He is coming immediately after the tribulation. But the Church will be gone before He comes for the second harvest.

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

 

[WPM]

What part did I manipulate? Was it the watch and be ready because we don't know the hour the Lord will come. Or is it the pray that you are worthy to escape all these things that have come to pass and stand before the son of man.

Or did I manipulate both? Please explain.

Your inventing of 2 future comings in any one single text. It is incredible that anyone would buy into this. You have nothing to bring to the table apart from private interpretation.

What Scripture teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?