The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[rebuilder 454]

Irrelevant, since Jesus never said all that refuse the mark of the beast and are delivered up will actually be harmed.

Luke 21:12-18
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
KJV

Lol
All of them but John were murdered by the devil.
Try again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are 2 distinct and separate comings in mat 24
There are 2 distinct gatherings in rev14. (Actually 3).
MAtt 25 has the groom gathering the bride.
Rev has the warrior general Jesus leading His already gathered to heaven saints BACK TO earth as a conquering King.

The "already gathered to heaven saints" will be the souls of the dead in Christ that will be with Him when He comes. It does not say that they have been changed and have immortal bodies yet at that point.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You think this will happen during a pre-trib rapture, right? And you think this event is not the same as described in Revelation 19:11-21? Why not? Look at verse 14 above. Who are "them also which sleep in Jesus" which will be with Him when He comes to gather us to Him? Even you would acknowledge they don't have their immortal bodies yet, right? So, who else can they be except for the souls of the dead in Christ who come with Him from heaven? And, with that in mind, why can't that be the ones who Revelation 19 is referring to as well?

maybe try to factor in some facts before trying to make all that into Rev 19.

Pretribbers usually do not omit components.
Postribbers can not possibly keep our verses on the table.
I am amazed at their torturing of the virgins parable. Not a single one can keep all the components of that parable intact.
Way too vivid of a depiction of the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Empty talk. You are doing NOTHING to break down the actual scriptures to show how they support your view. You are just making claims without backing them up at all, which is just a waste of time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Word salad.
Nothing of your post true.

Great response. Thank you for admitting that you have no answer for what I said. You hide that by just calling it "word salad", which it is not. You just don't want to make any effort to dig deeper to find the truth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

One of the false teachings by many preachers today, especially the pre-trib rapture preachers, is that the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world is going to be a time of all out chaos and WWIII, etc.

That is NOT what God's Word teaches.

Revelation 13:4-8 reveals that the whole... world (except Christ's elect) will worship the "dragon" (Satan). That means they will be DECEIVED into false worship by the coming Antichrist. Will the coming Antichrist do war upon his own that are deceived into worshiping him? Of course not.

That is how the coming "great tribulation" will manifest upon the DECEIVED. They will be tricked into worship of the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah thinking he is God. And that's for the WHOLE WORLD, excepting Christ's elect. That false-Messiah if you worship and bow to him in place of Christ will pay off all your debts, provide for your every need, treat you real good.

But for Christ's elect, as written in Christ's Olivet discourse, those of us who refuse to bow to that coming Antichrist/false-Messiah will be hated by the whole world. And Jesus forewarned that we would be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him by The Holy Spirit, and to not fear even if it is to the death.

Thus the modern materialistic comforts of the end is designed to help sway the DECEIVED who simply will sell their soul in order to keep their creature comforts instead of bearing their cross for Jesus Christ in waiting for His coming later.

A number no man can count are before the throne, beheaded by the ac DURING THE TRIB.
YOU..." No they were just hated on. No harm ever came to those 100 billion people."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not at all. This text does not say what you want it to say. Jesus and the New Testament remove any ambiguity on the subject. He shows that the day Noah went into the ark the flood came and all the wicked were destroyed. That is what is going to happen when Jesus comes.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus words support my position and damn your doctrine. They show what that "self-same day" was - "the day" of destruction, thus the 7th day. Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wholesale wiped out.

Pretribbers consistently try to explain away the clear and explicit New Testament narrative to support their faulty opinion of the vaguer Old Testament narrative. They invent obscure extra-biblical theories to reinforces their beliefs. They have to!

The reason why Pretribbers insist on such obscure theories is because they do not have any biblical support in either the Old or the New Testament. There is no where in scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

Anyway, what has seven days notice anything to do with a supposed future seven-year tribulation? Nothing! That is how nonsensical Pretrib is.

Exactly! Well said. As for your last comment, he (The Light) needs to address that. He takes pride in how literal he takes scripture, but somehow Noah going on to the ark 7 days before the flood equates to the rapture occurring 7 YEARS before the second coming of Christ. Pure nonsense.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The "already gathered to heaven saints" will be the souls of the dead in Christ that will be with Him when He comes. It does not say that they have been changed and have immortal bodies yet at that point.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You think this will happen during a pre-trib rapture, right? And you think this event is not the same as described in Revelation 19:11-21? Why not? Look at verse 14 above. Who are "them also which sleep in Jesus" which will be with Him when He comes to gather us to Him? Even you would acknowledge they don't have their immortal bodies yet, right? So, who else can they be except for the souls of the dead in Christ who come with Him from heaven? And, with that in mind, why can't that be the ones who Revelation 19 is referring to as well?




Empty talk. You are doing NOTHING to break down the actual scriptures to show how they support your view. You are just making claims without backing them up at all, which is just a waste of time.

You "explain" things to yourself.
You did nothing to actually engage verses that blow away your nasty posts against members here.
You belligerence has not impressed anyone here.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Exactly! Well said. As for your last comment, he (The Light) needs to address that. He takes pride in how literal he takes scripture, but somehow Noah going on to the ark 7 days before the flood equates to the rapture occurring 7 YEARS before the second coming of Christ. Pure nonsense.

Nope
Reread it.
It took 7 days to float the ark.
Your colleague was wrong.

Are you a child? You sure talk like one. There is no pretrib rapture described there. That passage is about the coming of the Son of Man. When did Jesus say that would happen?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For you to think that Jesus taught a pre-trib rapture is as ludicrous as it gets. He came nowhere near teaching that nonsense.

Lol
Thats the second time you omitted the setting change of vs 38.
Ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You all are inconsistent then.

You say the 144k has to represent the church, but the elders cannot represent the church. You say the 144k cannot be actual individuals, but the 24 can be individuals, but not humans.

You misrepresent my view more often than you present it accurately. You have a very serious reading comprehension problem. I do NOT say that the elders can't represent the church. I'm simply saying that them having gold crowns on their heads does not mean that they have already received the crown of life after a pre-trib rapture coming of Christ. They could represent the church in terms of the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now. But, there is no basis for thinking they were brought there after a pre-trib rapture coming of Christ.

Also, I do not say that the 144,000 HAS to represent the church. I believe it could. But, since they are called firstfruits, I also believe it could represent the souls of the now dead believers that James addressed in his letter.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.our lifetime.....18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Unpack mat 25, the gathering of the bride.
I will wait.

Waiting on SI to enlighten.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope
Reread it.
It took 7 days to float the ark.
Your colleague was wrong.

Wrong about what? What are you trying to say here? Can you please address what I actually said?

Lol
Thats the second time you omitted the setting change of vs 38.
Ridiculous.

Do you have anything to offer besides vague comments? Start being more specific and showing exactly what you're talking about or else I will just have to ignore you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You "explain" things to yourself.
You did nothing to actually engage verses that blow away your nasty posts against members here.
You belligerence has not impressed anyone here.

One of us actually took scripture and explained exactly how they understood it. And one of us just makes immature comments while doing absolutely nothing to show how they interpret any given verse or passage. Can you figure out which one is which? I'm sure everyone else can. It's clearly a waste of time talking to you since you just want to act like an immature little kid.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unpack mat 25, the gathering of the bride.
I will wait.

You want me to continue doing all your work for you. I'm the only one actually quoting scripture and explaining exactly how I interpret it. You are not doing that at all. I'm done with you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What does this prove? Please answer a simple question that no Pretrib can seem to answer: where in Scripture teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Mat 25 virgin parable is the rapture.
Are you aware that the rapture is the gathering of the bride?????.
Rev14:14 is a gathering of Jews mid trib.
Rev 19: is the return with the saints.
Pretrib rapture is the easiest doctrine to defend.
I can do it easily. I can debate your best people.
They have omitted the verses for so long they are invisible.
You actually can not say we have no verses, nor can you defend your own doctrine.
Rev 14:14 alone shows a coming of Jesus that is not postrib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

One of us actually took scripture and explained exactly how they understood it. And one of us just makes immature comments while doing absolutely nothing to show how they interpret any given verse or passage. Can you figure out which one is which? I'm sure everyone else can. It's clearly a waste of time talking to you since you just want to act like an immature little kid.

All you got at this point is personal attacks huh???

 

[rebuilder 454]

You want me to continue doing all your work for you. I'm the only one actually quoting scripture and explaining exactly how I interpret it. You are not doing that at all. I'm done with you.

It is so easy .
But you can not do it.
No postrib can.
But that is not the most alarming thing.
The alarming thing is that it should bring red flags to your own doctrine.
But I will await your next little personal attacks, and hiding from the virgins parable.
I totally understand why you dodge that parable.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Great response. Thank you for admitting that you have no answer for what I said. You hide that by just calling it "word salad", which it is not. You just don't want to make any effort to dig deeper to find the truth.

Yawn
Will await your interpretation of the virgins parable.
Remember a babe in christ could interpret it

So simple and vivid.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didnt say that the entire Bible is literal. Some is poetic, some is figurative, some is symbolic some is spiritual, and some is literal. My point was that more of scripture is literal than I had first thought and reading (certain portions of it) I have been able to prove myself wrong on some things by reading that text as literal instead of figurative.

If that's how you see it, so be it, but it's not as if you can then try to tell someone else that they should look at the text more literally. Some people take too much of it literally. Everyone needs to find a way to determine what type of text is being used in any given verse or passage.

Sort of weird but I've noticed that I've never been able to show that I had something wrong because I wasnt reading it figurative enough. I've shown myself that I have been wrong by not reading it literal enough though. FWIW?

I don't think that means anything to anyone else. That is just your particular experience.

Because She is not appointed unto wrath. Maybe you think that wrath just means someone got mad? But when scripture uses the word wrath of God it is referring to the Tribulation period.

What are you basing this on? And what exactly is your understanding of "the Tribulation period"? What happens during it and how long does it last?

Do you think the following description of God's wrath refers to "the Tribulation period"?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I understand how you reached that conclusion and what you mean. I still think you are incorrect about it though.

It's a minor miracle that you at least understand what I'm saying. I'll take it. Many pre-tribs only understand their own views and have no understanding at all of anyone else's views for whatever reason.

I did watch a teaching video about amils yesterday and they did a lot of explaing about what amils believe. And from what I can about what you have said, you arent lining up with all of the amil beliefs even though you are an amil.

Such as?

But, you need to understand that just as is the case for Premils, not all Amils believe everything exactly the same. There are pre-trib premils, mid-trib premils, post-trib premils, pre-wrath premils, etc. Right? Similarly, there are different kinds of amils (futurists, historicists, partial preterists, idealists). There are certain things we agree on like that Jesus began reigning around the time of His resurrection and that all mortals will be destroyed when Jesus returns and things like that. But, we disagree on some other things.

 

[marks]

I didnt say that the entire Bible is literal. Some is poetic, some is figurative, some is symbolic some is spiritual, and some is literal. My point was that more of scripture is literal than I had first thought and reading (certain portions of it) I have been able to prove myself wrong on some things by reading that text as literal instead of figurative.

I've found the Bible tells us what are the symbols and types and allegories and such, and also tells us what they mean.

Declaring something to be symbolic or type without the Bible saying so, declaring the meanings of said symbols without the Bible showing this, quite simply lacks Biblical authority.

I like to stick with what is specifically written.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

There are 2 distinct and separate comings in mat 24
There are 2 distinct gatherings in rev14. (Actually 3).
MAtt 25 has the groom gathering the bride.
Rev has the warrior general Jesus leading His already gathered to heaven saints BACK TO earth as a conquering King.

maybe try to factor in some facts before trying to make all that into Rev 19.

Pretribbers usually do not omit components.
Postribbers can not possibly keep our verses on the table.
I am amazed at their torturing of the virgins parable. Not a single one can keep all the components of that parable intact.
Way too vivid of a depiction of the pretrib rapture doctrine.

I wonder why you our avoiding my question. Because you have no Scripture to bring to the table.

Please answer a simple question that no Pretrib can seem to answer: where in Scripture teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

 

[WPM]

There are 2 distinct and separate comings in mat 24
There are 2 distinct gatherings in rev14. (Actually 3).
MAtt 25 has the groom gathering the bride.
Rev has the warrior general Jesus leading His already gathered to heaven saints BACK TO earth as a conquering King.

maybe try to factor in some facts before trying to make all that into Rev 19.

Pretribbers usually do not omit components.
Postribbers can not possibly keep our verses on the table.
I am amazed at their torturing of the virgins parable. Not a single one can keep all the components of that parable intact.
Way too vivid of a depiction of the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Pretribbers are experts at claiming things but slow to furnish actual relevant Scripture. That is because their doctrine cannot be found in the sacred text, it has to be foisted upon it.

Quote the passages you are claiming that support your doctrine. Highlight where they supposedly say what you say. Until you do that, this discussion is going nowhere.