The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh man. We're starting to have a good conversation so is it cool if we drop that stuff?

Yes, it sure is cool with me. But, it goes both ways. You have to drop it, too. Let's leave personal insults, including insulting questions, out of this.

There's even people on earth who was born a man but think they're a woman now and all that stuff. In this day &age, you dont know exactly what someone does believe until they say so or you ask.

People like that don't come here to a Christian forum to discuss end times things. So, just give the people here the benefit of the doubt. If someone isn't a true believer, it will be obvious. Certainly, WPM did nothing at all to indicate that he is anything but a true Christian.

He has said some tings that gave me the impression that he might not even believe that prophecy is real.

No, he has not given that impression at all. He has as strong an understanding of prophecy as anyone on this forum.

I was not sure, so I asked him. That's all it was. A question.

No need for such questions. He is a pastor, man. He loves Jesus. Please don't ask him any more questions like that. It's a waste of time and comes across as insulting whether you realize it or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then both groups are resurrected. You claim arise means resurrected. Those on earth will also rise up. You add into the text your doctrine that states they have to be physically dead. While they have previously died, it does not mean they are currently dead. Physical death is not an ongoing condition at any point in time, not even at the rapture. People do not take this body to heaven, period. So coming back for a dead body is ridiculous.

You just say a bunch of things without really thinking about it or doing any research. Do you expect to be taken seriously when that is the case? Did you bother looking to see what the word "rise" means in this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I'm sure you didn't even bother doing any research to see what the word "rise" here means.

Well, I did the research. The word "rise" there was translated from the Greek word "anistēmi" (Strong's G450). It has a few different meanings. It can mean to rise up or stand up from a laying down or sitting position. It can mean to rise up from the dead. Or it can mean to bring something forward or cause something to appear. It never means to rise up off of the earth into the air.

It is used in these verses:

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Obviously, the word is used here to described Jesus rising from the dead. That is how it is used in 1 Thess 4:16 as well. It's saying that the bodily dead in Christ will bodily rise from the dead first. And then after that they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. We all will be changed to have incorruptible bodies at that time since Paul said we will all be changed at the same time (1 Cor 15:51-52).

Paul also taught in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that when the soul leaves the union of this body, it enters into a union with God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

No, he did not teach that there. Why would he teach that there and go on to contradict himself shortly after that as well as contradicting what he had written in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 where he very clearly indicated that ALL will be changed to have an incorruptible body at the same time, which will be when the last trumpet sounds.

Paul is saying that those alive will be changed, at that moment, because all those that Jesus brings with Him, will already be changed.

No, he said all and he specifically referenced the dead as being included as well. They will be resurrected at the last trumpet and then all of them as well as all who are alive will be changed to have incorruptible bodies. So, your doctrine blatantly contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

 

[MA2444]

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus talked about 2 different tribulations because He was asked 2 different questions. The first one related to the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings. He had just previously told the disciples that the temple buildings would be destroyed. The other question was in relation to His coming and the end of the age which has not yet occurred. The first question related to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings which occurred in 70 AD. So, that was local tribulation but Jesus will return after a future global tribulation.

Do you read prophecies as literal or allegorical?

Right. From His perspective, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day (2 Peter 3:8), which means He is not affected at all by time since He created time and exists outside of time.

It's not any amount of time to Jesus since He, being God, is not confined within the realm of time.

What makes you think that there is no time in heaven? if a day is 100 years to the Lord, then what is a day to the Lord if he is outside of time altogether? Why does scripture speak of todays, tomoorows and yesterdays in scripture? That seems illogical to me.
So He is omnipresent. I get that. He is present everywhere at once and at all times at once, so there's something going on there that we dont understand yet about the spiritual realm.

What does that mean? I've never heard that before.

About: "Yep, it's almost over and then we will be be with Jesus, and be eternal beings also.
They say the hardest part of being an eternal being is the first hundred years!"

That my friend is a bit of humor about how difficult our 1st hundered years on earth are. Nothing else.

Say what now? Where does the OT allude to a pre-trib rapture? And where does the NT refer to a pre-trib rapture as being a mystery? If you look at what Paul called a mystery, he wasn't talking about the rapture, if we understand the rapture to be specifically referring to us being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The mystery not revealed in the OT is that we will not all die, but will all be changed to have imperishable (incorruptible) bodies. He said nothing here about the rapture being a mystery.

It's in the book of Daniel. I already posted it.

So you hold the position that 1 Corinthians 15 doent talk about a pretrib rapture. Can you show that somehow? What led you that conclusion?

I showed you the proper understanding of "the time of the end" by the descriptions of "the last time" and "the last days" in the NT. That time began long ago already according to John and Peter. Why would you think that prophecy is still sealed even after the Holy Spirit came to dwell in people and teach them and after the NT was written? To be sealed simply means it was not to be understood until a later time. Surely, people began understanding it once they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit and once they had the NT. You are making assumptions about what "the time of the end" means without even referring to how the NT defines "the last time" and "the last days". Why would you do that? Why not allow the NT to shed light on the OT prophecy from Daniel 9:24-27?

Honestly, you lost me with this stuff. I'm not understanding where you're at on this at all because it is very unclear. So, maybe try again to clarify?

 

[MA2444]

I am trying to keep this on the issues. It is impossible with you. Your posts are full of ad hominem.

You make claim after claim and are unable to support it with actual relevant Scripture. I understand that this is frustrating. But you have chosen to identify with Pretrib and promote it. It is time to start furnishing us with hard Scripture that says what you claim. You have yet to prove any imminency.

Did I hurt your feelings again, sweetheart? I'm so soory about that. It will be ok, I promise.

You asked about the rapture and the wedding and Immenincy and so I posted it for you.

Your response was wah he offended me so he is wrong?

Let's just agree to disagree and leave me alone. I dont like talking to you. All we ever wind up talking about is your hurt feelings.

Whatever you want to believe, it's your choice. I disagree though.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But they wont be saying peace and safety during the tribulation, so this must mean before the tribulation..

This is not what Paul was saying. You need to learn to look at context.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

When you read all of this then you can see the context of what Paul was saying in verse 3. Paul was not talking about people saying "peace and safety" in terms of peace in the world. No. The context is in relation to them being spiritually asleep and in spiritual darkness. So, they say "peace and safety" in the sense of having a false sense of spiritual security, thinking they are okay spiritually, when in reality they are in spiritual darkness and have no personal relationship with God. So, even while they are thinking they are secure spiritually even though they are not, sudden destruction will come upon them unexpectedly like a thief in the night.

So, in no way, shape or form does this passage support the pre-trib rapture theory. It supports post-trib instead. You can especially see that when you remember that the original Greek manuscripts were not divided up into chapters and verses. The translators made a poor choice of where to put a chapter break here. Paul was continuing his description of what will happen at Christ's second coming that he started in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He first talked about what will happen to believers on that day and then he talked about what will happen to unbelievers on that day. Unfortunately, because of the chapter break, some people like yourself think that 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Thess 5:1-9 are talking about two entirely different events when in reality they are talking about two different aspects of the same one event that will happen at the same time, which is the second coming of Christ.

It sounds to me like sudden destruction is going to come upon them very very soon after the Rapture. Or to put it another way, the Lord gets His people out just in time. The Rapture does not start the tribulation, the Trib is triggered by the signing of the peace treaty. Who knows if they sign the peace treaty one day after the rapture? Two days? Two weeks? But as it was in Noah's day so shall God get His people to safety before the rain...? That works I think.

I'm sorry, but you're kind of all over the place here. A typical pre-trib would say that the sudden destruction occurs at the second coming of Christ after the tribulation and that it doesn't occur until 7 years or so after the rapture. That does not appear to be your understanding since you are saying "sudden destruction is going to come upon them very very soon after the Rapture", which I agree with.

Are you associating the "sudden destruction" with the tribulation? How long do you think the "sudden destruction" will last? Keep in mind that Peter describes the destruction that will occur when the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night in 2 Peter 3:10-12. He describes the fire that will come down on the entire earth. How long would that take? Not very long I would think. How does 2 Peter 3:10-12 fit with your understanding of 1 Thess 5:2-3?

As for a supposed peace treaty, scripture does not teach such a thing. You have been taught wrong about that.

They wil not escape the tribulation. It will be worldwide destruction. With much wailing and gnashing of teeth. WW II took 1 out of every 3 Jews off the plamet. The Tribulation will take 2 out of 3 Jews from the earth. Only a small remnant are protected at that time and many will be martyred.

Again, it does not appear that you are looking at the context here.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

You are correctly thinking that this is talking about "worldwide destruction", but incorrectly thinking that it won't affect all mortal people on the earth. Peter described that same destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Surely, no mortals will survive this, right? So, what about believers at this time? They will be changed to have immortal bodies and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before this happens.

But the wrath to come is the wrath of God and God is not angry at His Bride so she wont go through the wrath of God. She is set apart!

Yes, of course. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air right before He sends fire down upon the entire earth.

He makes a special trip just for her!

No. Scripture never teaches that.

I have noticed in scripture that they are vague about the term day of the Lord in different places and I dont have figured out yet but I do know that the Bride is not appointed to wrath. And that's the trib.

Right, the bride will be caught up just before the fire comes down upon the entire earth. And not a second before that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh forgot this last one. I'm with you on the first two paragraphs. Then that last line seems like it could be misunderstood easily? So if one event is before the trib and one event is after thr trib...then it can be said that the Rapture is pretrib? It sounds like it could be. I think it is too.

I'm beat. Going to sleep.

G'nite yall.

Wow. That is not what I said at all. Please slow down and read what I say more carefully. I very specifically said "it's one event and not two events with one before the tribulation and one after.".

I said "it's one event and not two events (one before and one after the tribulation)", so how are you thinking I said it's two events? If you can't understand something as simple as this...

 

[MA2444]

Yes, it sure is cool with me. But, it goes both ways. You have to drop it, too. Let's leave personal insults, including insulting questions, out of this.

Ok, I dont mind talking to you. But...what insulting questions? I was taught that the only dumb question is one you dont ask. Or else where do we go from here? Will you provide an approved list of questions, or what?

That's not very realistic is it?

People like that don't come here to a Christian forum to discuss end times things. So, just give the people here the benefit of the doubt. If someone isn't a true believer, it will be obvious. Certainly, WPM did nothing at all to indicate that he is anything but a true Christian.

Those people dont come here? I thought you was one! All day we talked yesterday and you had left me with the distinct impression that you did somehow beieve in a pretrib rapture. Now today you are saying no but there are two Great Tribulations? So I largely have no idea what you believe. Would you mind clarifying your position for us? Or would that be an insulting question?

I do ask good questions at times and a few people get mad because I ask good questions that they feel uncomfortable answering. And it was just a question, but the Victim card comes out. Oh you shouldnt have asked that, that's offensive... Bah!

No, he has not given that impression at all. He has as strong an understanding of prophecy as anyone on this forum.

Maybe he hasnt given you that impression but he sure has to me. He has failed to answer many of my questions and the best I seem to be able to get out of him is that he is an Amillenialist. He would not address that question directly, he simply pulls out a victim card and says let's talk about wah.

Whatever! So he's a Amillenialist, and they interpret prophecy allegorically. But he wont answer those questions either. He just want to talk about how mean I am and how much emotional pain he is in. What kind of a discussion is that?!!

At least you try to stick to somewhat of the subject. That's a plus. But brother, I'm not hurting that guy by asking questions! Lol! Geez. So we dont se eye to eye on anything. SO what? Agree to disagree and have a nice day. Makes sense to me.

If I ask you a question and it makes you feel insulted or uncomfortable, perhaps you could ask yourself, am I being too sensitive about it? Because I dont ask malicious questions brother. I have better things to do. (No offense intended!)

We're just talking. Dont be too thin skinned, try.

No need for such questions. He is a pastor, man. He loves Jesus. Please don't ask him any more questions like that. It's a waste of time and comes across as insulting whether you realize it or not.

I have already agreed to disagree with him and quit talking to him because it upsets him. I can't help how sensitive he is! Are you guys going to come up with a list of approved questions that you wont take offense to? That seems mighty unrealistic.

This is a discussion forum brother. We discuss. Sometimes we dont agree. We discuss. We're not a bunch of girls talking. Is it impolite to ask questions during a discussion on a discussion board? Or are some people too overly sensitive?

I understand how men talk. There is a little bit of jib jab that goes on but it's inconsequential. That's just men talking. How they talk. If people dont understand the dynamics in a discussion where men are talking and not take everything they hear to heart, then they perhaps should be on a discussion board with men.

WPM tries my patience. You have a little bit, but have you heard about it? DId I play a victim card on you? No I havent and for good reason, I'm here to discuss and not be thin skinned about it. I do try to ask good questions. Is that wrong?

We're off topic now and should drop that crap and maybe we can get some discussion done?

No one is insulting anyone. No one is being attacked. I have asked no malicious questions. Perhaps you dont realize how I think and so easily misunderstand me?
Come on brother, please let us get back on topic. I wont talk to WPM anymore if I can help it. (ater all I'm just a man, lol)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes this is ome of them that is confusing.

It's not confusing to me at all (talking about 2 Peter 3:10-13 here). Why is it confusing to you? Do you look at it objectively or do you bring doctrinal bias and assumptions into it before you study it?

When does this happen?

When does the day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night happen? On the day that Jesus returns. Is that not your understanding of when the following happens:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul talks here of the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night bringing major destruction to the point where "they shall not escape". Peter also talks about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night but goes into more specific detail than Paul did by showing that the sudden mass destruction will come about by way of fire coming down on the entire earth.

It says in a different place after all is said and done that the old earth passes away, and I saw new heaven and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem coming down....It can't be both, right?

What can't be both? I'm not sure what you're asking here.

I see that. In fact I think I said it. And we will be at that point, or before, caught up in the air to meet the Lord. And while the earth burns, we'll be at the biggest bestest BBQ that this Universe has ever seen before! The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Right?

This is your response to me saying "Can you see here that the wrath of which we are not appointed is something that will come down upon the entire earth? That's why Paul said "they shall not escape". We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point rather than staying on the earth while fire comes down upon it.".

So, you agree with what I said here? Which would mean you agree with me that the rapture will occur right before Jesus burns up the earth? If so, why would you call yourself pre-trib in that case? This would be more of a pre-final wrath view, if anything.

So if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, then the rules changed at that point and the new rule was, absent from the body, present with the Lord, so empty out Abrahams Bosom and take those people to be with the Lord. So Jesus will bring those people with Him...and He is coming for His Bride! I can see that.

Yes, exactly. But, what scripture teaches will happen on that same day is that He will take vengeance on His enemies and destroy them (2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 4:13-5:9, Matthew 24:29-51).

I wonder what He shouts? "Wake Up!!" and those passed on, their bodies will hear Him and rise up to be trandformed in the twinkling of an eye and receive their resurrection body.

Who knows? We'll find out.

ANd! When we return to the earth with Jesus when He goes to My of Olives and sets up His milenial kingdom, we wil be with Him and livimg on earth those 1000 years as spiritual beings i the service of the Lord.

Whoa whoa whoa. Where is this taught in scripture? How does this line up with what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Notice here that what we should be looking for, according to the promise of His coming, is "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". The result of the regenerating of the heavens and earth by fire will be the new heavens and new earth. So, how does a supposed future millennial kingdom line up with that? The new heavens and new earth will be eternal, so the thousand years has nothing to do with what happens after Jesus returns.

The thousand years is a figurative number that talks about the time during which Jesus reigns and Satan is bound. Are you not aware that He began to reign long ago already?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

There will also be regular humans on earth during the millenium. And they will have to choose to serve the Lord. (And no abortions for 1000 years! ol, humans breed like rabbits. 1000 years? Wow the population might get to a Trillion people or more? No wars, no abortion, nothing like that! That's going to be interesting! I suppose that's when the meek inherit the earth too?

Who exactly are these "regular humans" (I assume you mean mortal) that would be on the earth during this supposed future millennium? Keep in mind that scripture (such as 2 Peter 3:10-12) teaches that fire will come down on literally the entire earth when Jesus returns, so no mortals could survive that.

 

[MA2444]

This is not what Paul was saying. You need to learn to look at context.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Boy oh boy, huh?! I hope this question dont insult you. For real.
The question is: Do you find it hard to believe that Jesus loves His Bride so much that He would make her experience the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the earth.

The Great Tribulation is a time of Judgment, punishment, and trial brought upon the people of earth (mostly Israel) for rejecting Him as their Messiah and Lord.
So why would the Bride be subject to God's anger and wrath? God isnt angry at His Bride. she is the one who was eagerly awaitng His return to be married to him.

Would you take your Fiance to a gang fight on your way to the Wedding ceremony and Marriage supper. We'll go to a gang fight honey where you get the crap beat out of you and afterwards, we'll go to dinner...?

I have to disagee with that. I wouldn't do that. I dont think you would either. So if we wouldnt do that to our Fiance's, then, how much moreso would Jesus not do it?

I drew that conclusion through inferences.
First the topic is set. We're going to dinner and a wedding. Further details outline going to a gang fight first. Ok, that's set.

Next we use details and personal knowledge applied to it from our own experiences and knowledge. So an inference is now made. (you with me?)

Finally, we use the totality of everything we have so and come to a conclusion about the situation (or passage in scripture). And my concusion in this case would be, that doesn't sound like a good idea to take my fiance to a gang fight before the reception. Another conclusion it suggests is, God dont do things like that to those He Loves! Get real.

Scripture works the same way in many cases. Put the deatils together with other scipture which are relevant and apply our knowledge and life expierience and reach a conclusion.

Since I have been seriously trying to walk with the Lord since 2009 when He saved my life when I wasnt walking with him but found myself facing death so I reached out to Him and said Lord be with me! And He was. So I owe Him my life and I have been trying to learn, read, progress, and bear fruit in the Lord ever since and He has done a lot of teaching to me. And the thing He teaches me the most is about His Love. Love Him and prove it by Obeying Him, and learn to love my neighbors and Brothers & Sisters as myself.

And I may not be a genius or even a Paul but some of it sticks and they overlaying theme that He is proving to me is all about love. So certainly the Lord will not forch the church to go through the tribulation. She is not appointed to wrath. IOW, He wont treat His people like that because He loves them too much.

God isnt an angry God to His Believers. I could tell you some personal testimonies that would knock your socks off that prove what I'm saying. But it's not anything from scripture so you would have to take word for it, Jesus gets His Bride out before the Trib. And I have no reason to lie. I dont take donations, I dont sell videos or cd's nothing. But it happened and it's true. Take that as you wish.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, I dont mind talking to you. But...what insulting questions? I was taught that the only dumb question is one you dont ask. Or else where do we go from here? Will you provide an approved list of questions, or what?

Questions like "do you believe in prophecy"? How can you seriously think that anyone here on this Christian end times forum doesn't believe in prophecy. How can you think that is not an insulting question to ask anyone here? I just don't get it. But, at the same time I have no desire to keep trying to help you understand things like this, so let's move on.

Those people dont come here? I thought you was one!

Goodness sakes, man...did you forget what kind of people I was talking about? Unbelievers. Non-Christians. And you're saying you thought I was one? Please read what is said more carefully so you don't end up coming across like you're saying I'm not a Christian. I know that isn't your intention because you apparently forgot who I was talking about, but....man....

All day we talked yesterday and you had left me with the distinct impression that you did somehow beieve in a pretrib rapture.

LOL. It's hard to believe that you are serious. Are you playing a game with me here for your own amusement? If so, I'm not interested in that. I guarantee that I said nothing to indicate that I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I have been arguing against a pretrib rapture the whole time. Please slow down and read what I'm saying more carefully because in no way, shape or form have I said that I believe in a pre-trib rapture. Not even close.

Now today you are saying no but there are two Great Tribulations? So I largely have no idea what you believe. Would you mind clarifying your position for us? Or would that be an insulting question?

LOL! I have explained what I believe in another post already and I assume you will see it. After I post this I will see what post number it was and then edit this post and let you know.

I do ask good questions at times and a few people get mad because I ask good questions that they feel uncomfortable answering. And it was just a question, but the Victim card comes out. Oh you shouldnt have asked that, that's offensive... Bah!

Asking someone here on this Christian prophecy forum if they believe in prophecy or if they believe in God are not good questions.

Maybe he hasnt given you that impression but he sure has to me.

Maybe you should pay closer attention to what he is saying and give him a chance. Ask questions for clarification instead of making assumptions. And I mean questions about what he believes, not asking him if he believes in prophecy when he obviously does.

I have been communicating with him on forums for many years now and I know you could learn a lot from him if you just set aside the joking and unnecessary questions for a bit and gave him a chance.

He has failed to answer many of my questions and the best I seem to be able to get out of him is that he is an Amillenialist. He would not address that question directly, he simply pulls out a victim card and says let's talk about wah.

Whatever! So he's a Amillenialist, and they interpret prophecy allegorically.

But he wont answer those questions either.

He has answered more questions about his beliefs than you can imagine. But, you are not giving him a chance. You are not treating him with any respect. You are asking him ridiculous questions like if he believes in prophecy. How about giving him a legitimate chance without coming at him with the snark and sarcasm and then see what happens? Is that too much to ask?

He just want to talk about how mean I am and how much emotional pain he is in. What kind of a discussion is that?!!

Why can't you just act like an adult and talk like an adult and just discuss the scriptures with him? Leave the other stuff out of it. Maybe later when you get to know him a bit better you can add some jokes in there to lighten the mood. In the meantime find out what he believes. Give him a chance. I don't see you doing that at this point.

At least you try to stick to somewhat of the subject. That's a plus. But brother, I'm not hurting that guy by asking questions! Lol! Geez. So we dont se eye to eye on anything. SO what? Agree to disagree and have a nice day. Makes sense to me.

Just leave out the unnecessary questions. For the life of me I can't understand how you think asking him if he believes in prophecy and questions like that are legitimate questions. Please don't ask questions like that to a pastor. That's all. He doesn't mind questions, I guarantee that. But, try to ask questions that make sense and are actually helpful.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The future rule of an Antichrist is not from Scripture. It is a human invention to fill in the gaps of human theology.

Well, that is your opinion. In my estimation, the Apostle John spoke of the Antichrist in this way:
1 John 2.18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

John expected the Antichrist to come in the future. Why did he think this, and what does he base this on?

In my view, all of the NT doctrine concerning the Beast and the Antichrist originates from Dan 7, where Daniel sees the Little Horn boasting before God and defeating the saints. This is the Antichrist. The "Son of Man coming with the clouds" is the Christ who the Little Horn opposes. He tries to stop his Kingdom from coming. Therefore, he is called, by John, the "Antichrist."

The "Beast" is the 4th Kingdom out of which comes this Little Horn. It is, I believe, the Roman Empire, which is the 4th in successive kingdoms following after the Babylonian Kingdom Daniel served in.

John did not know how long it would take before this 4th Kingdom broke up into 10 states, out of which the Antichrist would emerge. He just knew this was the sequence of events, according to Daniel's Dream.

John saw the already present reality of "antichrists," who opposed Jesus' ministry, as evidence that the "last hour" was already here. John did not know how long this "last hour" would last. ;) We have had antichrists opposing Christianity for 2000 years, and yet the Antichrist has not yet appeared, nor do we have the 10 nations originating out of Roman Europe coalescing into a united Kingdom. We do not yet even know what 10 those states would be!

All of the beast that Daniel saw that many think are future were already fulfilled with Greece and Rome.

Yes, Rome is a fulfilment, but see above. The Roman Kingdom has existed throughout NT history in Europe.

European Civilization is, in a real way, an extension of Roman Civilization. It was Christianized in the early Empire, but today, Europe is being de-Christianized, preparing for the rise of the Antichrist, I believe.

I think it significant that at the point where the Roman Church began to weaken that the European States began to emerge as independent kingdoms. And ultimately, they not only broke from the Holy Roman Empire, but they broke altogether with the Roman Church, and today even from any church!

There is nothing in Revelation unless you all change it around to fit your eschatology, which to you is adding and taking away from what John wrote, concerning a peaceful rule of an AC who kills "Christians".

Where are we told the AC has a "peaceful rule" in the Revelation?

If any poster is called out for changing Revelation to fit their eschatology, the one judging, should not change Revelation either. A huge red flag goes up the minute a person says, Revelation is not in chronological order and so and so teaches us to interpret Revelation "this way".

Determining the sequence of events in the Revelation is a matter of interpretation--not of changing the words or meaning. It really depends on the literary style that Revelation uses. If the style allows for a series of independent visions, then there is nothing inherently wrong with saying it isn't all chronological.

While comparing the Second Coming to a wedding, is interesting, there are a few disclaimers. The church is compared to both the body of Christ, and the bride of Christ. I think both sides get the anology slightly off, especially if one accepts the Day of the Lord is a one thousand year period of time. The church is not wed to Christ until after the Millennium. So any marriage prior to the millennium is a different group, that many still gloss over.

Not glossing anything over, I don't define the "Day of the Lord" in the same way every place the term is used. In my understanding, the Church is wed to Christ at the moment we are glorified. Prior to that we are not properly "dressed" for the occasion! ;)

This is the church in Revelation 21:

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Jesus is not marrying His wife. This bride is not Israel. This bride is not an empty city needing to be filled up with people.

I see Jesus marrying his bride, the international Church, when it is glorified at his Coming. The city represents the people who live there. The term "Jerusalem" is being use, I think, metaphorically and symbolically. The city represents the people. Some elements may be quite literal. We determine that by recognizing what is intended to be symbolic and what is intended to be literal.

These people in this city descending from heaven is still called a bride, not a wife.

Same thing, bride and wife, at the point of marriage, which is, I believe, the day of Christ's Coming. So if the term "bride" is being used for an event a thousand years *after* the 2nd Coming, then it must be identifying the Church as it presently is now, before this happens.

It's like talking about Saul, who would become the Apostle Paul, died in such and such year in such and such a way. But we are just talking about Saul before his name changed to Paul. We could say that either Saul or Paul died in that time and way--both would be true.

The marriage with Israel is the Day of the Lord. When it comes to the marriage of the church, nothing concerning this creation even applies, as there will not even be a physical temple any more, as God and the church as the New Jerusalem is the temple now on earth. At that point the nations and kings of the earth will walk in the light of that temple, the New Jerusalem.

The marriage of Christ with Israel is also when Christ Returns. It is a specific promise made to the nation Israel, although there are many nations who may have similar promises made to them. After all, Abraham was promised "many nations"--not just Israel.

The Lamb and the church are now one and the same. No more separation. The body of Christ and the wife of Christ with no distinction between the 2. The New Jerusalem is now one entity.

Jesus will always be distinct from his Church. We are one in Spirit, but not one in identity. Our common residence in Jerusalem does not blur the distinctions in our individuality--not sure what you're getting at?

So the Day of the Lord is not about the church. It is about Jesus as King over Israel.

Again, it depends on the context for the use of this term, "Day of the Lord." The way it is used in the NT for eschatology is a reference to the specific day of Christ's Return. And it is not just for Israel as a nation, but also for the purpose of glorifying the Church, which will include a remnant of Israel. Israel's unbelievers will be "reborn" into a new Christian nation.

Not all, of course, will be full-fledge believers, but the nation will make a social compact dedicated to Christianity in their nation, I believe.

I've addressed as many points as I can right now... Stick to what the Bible says, and you'll be fine. Try to get "creative," and you'll end up off course. You should agree with this?

 

[The Light]

Crowns (plural). It says they have crowns of gold. What we are said to receive when Jesus comes is what James called "the crown of life". Where does it say that the elders have the crown of life?

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Where does it say the crown of life is not gold

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you read prophecies as literal or allegorical?

It depends on the prophecy. No one reads all prophecy as literal or all as allegorical. It's clear to me that a prophecy like what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is meant to be taken literally while a prophecy about a seven-headed, ten-horned beast is not. Understand what I'm saying?

What makes you think that there is no time in heaven? if a day is 100 years to the Lord, then what is a day to the Lord if he is outside of time altogether? Why does scripture speak of todays, tomoorows and yesterdays in scripture? That seems illogical to me.
So He is omnipresent. I get that. He is present everywhere at once and at all times at once, so there's something going on there that we dont understand yet about the spiritual realm.

I didn't say there is no time in heaven. I'm not going to pretend to know all there is to know about heaven. I'm saying that God exists outside of time because He created it. Do you agree with that? Yes, He interacts with us within the realm of time but He also exists outside of time. That's why it says to Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. That doesn't mean that one day to us is a thousand years to Him as some people imagine. No, it means that no amount of time makes any difference to Him (a day, a thousand years, 5 thousand years, or any amount of time) because He is not confined within the realm of time. Do you understand what I'm saying?

It's in the book of Daniel. I already posted it.

Keep in mind that we each have posted a ton back and forth at this point, so it's quite possible that I may have missed something you posted. Where does the book of Daniel teach a pre-trib rapture?

So you hold the position that 1 Corinthians 15 doent talk about a pretrib rapture. Can you show that somehow? What led you that conclusion?

Did you read everything that I had said? I already explained this. Do you know what the word "rapture" means? It simply refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It's a word to refer to being snatched up. So, when I say that 1 Corinthians 15 doesn't refer to a pretrib rapture or even to the rapture at all, I'm simply saying that it doesn't specifically refer to us being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

I am NOT saying that what Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 does not occur at the same time as the rapture. I believe it does. I am just saying that the rapture, with the understanding that the word rapture specifically refers to us being caught up, is not referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

So, what started all this was the talk about what was a mystery in the OT and a mystery before Paul wrote about it. The mystery wasn't us being gathered to meet the Lord. The mystery is what Paul said it was and nothing more.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The part I put in bold was the mystery. Nothing said there about us being gathered to Christ. Jesus had already talking about the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse. No, the mystery was that we won't all die, but we will all be changed to have incorruptible bodies. That's it. That was the mystery. No one had ever taught that before Paul did. You won't find it in the OT and you won't find it in the gospels regarding anything Jesus said while He was on the earth or anything like that. The mystery wasn't revealed until Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was sent out.

Honestly, you lost me with this stuff. I'm not understanding where you're at on this at all because it is very unclear. So, maybe try again to clarify?

I believe I'm being clear, but the problem is that the only doctrine you know about is your own. I can tell you have not learned about other doctrines which is why you have so many questions. So, please, just ask me any specific questions that you may have. It would take too long for me to spell out everything I believe. I'm an amillennialist but not a partial preterist. I see the rapture as being post-trib in terms of happening "after the tribulation of those days" as Jesus said (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Just let me know what else you'd like to know about what I believe and I'll try to answer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Where does it say the crown of life is not gold

LOL. It doesn't, but also doesn't say that it is. And it doesn't say that one of the crowns that the elders are wearing is the crown of life. Can you see here that your view is based on speculation rather than clear scripture? What clear scripture do you have to support your doctrine? It seems that your doctrine is based primarily on one of the most difficult books to interpret in the entire Bible. That does not make for a strong foundation for one's doctrine.

 

[MA2444]

It's not confusing to me at all (talking about 2 Peter 3:10-13 here). Why is it confusing to you? Do you look at it objectively or do you bring doctrinal bias and assumptions into it before you study it?

Now if I was too thin skinned, I'd be like, how dare you insult me like that?! (LOL. Sorry, couldnt resist). The way that I very slowly changed from a posttribber to a pretribber it didnt happen on a whim overnight. It took a bit of time. But bit by bit through learning of the Lord and developing a relationship with the Lord it brings things clearly over time.
I thought what? That doesn't sound like the kind of thing that the Lord I know would do. And at the same time prolly because of prayer, bits of information from the text of the word became filled in and the combination of the two made me realize one day uh-oh. I really have been wrong about posttrib. So today I am solidly pretrib and know it to the core of my being.

And in the day to day, I'll talk to posttribbers and discuss their views. That's the only way to be able to learn and grow is if I can set aside doctrinal bias and preconceived notions before I try to see what the other guy is saying. And tis has been at least a somewhat effective technique for me because using that technique and having an open mind in the discussion has showed me where I have been wrong about things before (other things).
So it is a good learning technique and I know more now about the Lord than I ever have in my life before.

That doesnt mean I can not be wrong. It means I have a decent handle on it. Scripture talks about knowing God as an ocean or something. You go ankle deep, then shin deep, then waist deep shoulders, then over your head in the Spirit of the Lord and the knowledge of God. I feel like I am ankle deep, but I did have one guy say it sounds like I'm shin deep.

Same thing with "the Mountain of God". It's a tall mountain, Brother! And the further you go, the steeper it gets and harder going. Not only that but the higher up you are if you fall and stumble, the more damage is done to you on impact! I don't feel very high on the mountain of God yet. But I'm not on the bottom flat ground.

I should tell you some testimonies about strange things that God did for me. I've never seen Him yet (that I can remember) but He walked in on me one time while I was checking emails. He didn't let me see Him, but He did speak audibly to me. And I knew who it was right away even before He spoke. Because there was a power and an intense Love in the air. It was like the air became energized and there's all these waves of love feelings radiating from Him. It was the most powerful presence of God that I have ever felt before, or since!

Most christians dont give the word of God proper credit or attention. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Word is translated two different ways in scripture. Logos, and Rhema. That Romans 10:17 verse is not Logos. It is Rhema. Anyone remember be led by the spirit? The Holy Spirit gives Rhemas. Dont neglect your Rhemas! It's a lot more that just text in the Bible. That book is haunted by the Holy Spirit! You pick it up and read and all of a sidden, you find yourself looking into a mirror! That's a Rhema. So there's two important componants that make up the word of God. The text and the Spirit. And you have to go before the text before you can ever get a Rhema from it. I suspect that the Bible will never pass away and we shall continue to study it in heaven. Because it's that good. It is literally God's word in print. and to me that is still the minor compnant of it. The Holy Spirit is the bigger componant of scripture. And if that Bible talks to you like a mirror and you see your self...you better listen!

Even Jesus and the HS says things that sting to me sometimes. I have said no to God before. But after I chewed on it for a bit and realized it was real, I did eventually obey him. I just listened and obeyed above my not wanting to do what He told me to do. I made the right decision for once, yay! (He brought all those Jonah stories to my rememberence, so I had to!)

Sometimes when I dont forget before I start reading the scriptures I say a little prayer for the HS to tech me and guide me into all truth and make a declation that I will be reading the word of God through my spirit and not carnally. It's soo important to not neglect the Logos or Rhemas by not reading the word evrry day. You grow faster spiritually I think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I hope this question dont insult you. For real.
The question is: Do you find it hard to believe that Jesus loves His Bride so much that He would make her experience the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the earth.

Where did I say that His bride will experience God's wrath that is poured out upon the earth? I didn't. That isn't what I believe. So, why are you asking me this?

The Great Tribulation is a time of Judgment, punishment, and trial brought upon the people of earth (mostly Israel) for rejecting Him as their Messiah and Lord.
So why would the Bride be subject to God's anger and wrath? God isnt angry at His Bride. she is the one who was eagerly awaitng His return to be married to him.

Again, where did I say that His bride would be subjected to God's wrath? I didn't. I was referring to this passage:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

In no way, shape or form did I say that we will go through this "sudden destruction" that Paul referenced here. It's God's wrath. We are not appointed to it. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before this happens. I have said that multiple times. But, what I have also pointed out multiple times is that this is describing the final wrath of God that will be poured out on the entire earth (every inch of it)

Would you take your Fiance to a gang fight on your way to the Wedding ceremony and Marriage supper. We'll go to a gang fight honey where you get the crap beat out of you and afterwards, we'll go to dinner...?

All these questions based on your misunderstanding of what I believe. It's unfortunate. I honestly believe I've been clear about this, so I'm not sure what is causing you to misunderstand what I believe.

I have to disagee with that. I wouldn't do that. I dont think you would either.

Of course I wouldn't. It's amazing to me that you would think that I believe we will go through God's wrath. Do you never give anyone the benefit of the doubt? Does it never occur to you that when it seems like someone believes something as crazy as that, that maybe you have misunderstood what that person is saying?

Scripture works the same way in many cases. Put the deatils together with other scipture which are relevant and apply our knowledge and life expierience and reach a conclusion.

I have told this to people many times myself. It's referred to as interpreting scripture with scripture. With any given verse or passage, we should be careful to interpret it in such a way that lines up with rest of scripture and doesn't contradict any other scripture.

Since I have been seriously trying to walk with the Lord since 2009 when He saved my life when I wasnt walking with him but found myself facing death so I reached out to Him and said Lord be with me! And He was. So I owe Him my life and I have been trying to learn, read, progress, and bear fruit in the Lord ever since and He has done a lot of teaching to me. And the thing He teaches me the most is about His Love. Love Him and prove it by Obeying Him, and learn to love my neighbors and Brothers & Sisters as myself.

That's great. I think that is the most important thing which is why Jesus said this:

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And I may not be a genius or even a Paul but some of it sticks and they overlaying theme that He is proving to me is all about love. So certainly the Lord will not forch the church to go through the tribulation. She is not appointed to wrath. IOW, He wont treat His people like that because He loves them too much.

I agree. It's unfortunate that you spent however much time you spent creating this post thinking that you had to tell me that we won't experience God's wrath. I already know that as does pretty much every other Christian.

God isnt an angry God to His Believers. I could tell you some personal testimonies that would knock your socks off that prove what I'm saying.

I don't need that proven to me. It's obvious and scripture explicitly says so as well.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It doesn't get much more clear than this, right?

But it's not anything from scripture so you would have to take word for it, Jesus gets His Bride out before the Trib.

Please tell me exactly what your understanding is of "the Trib". How long does it last? What does it entail? Any details you can tell me. We can't have a good discussion about this if I don't even know what your understanding of "the Trib" is.

And I have no reason to lie.

Of course. Neither do I. And, yet, we still disagree on these things. Not because we're lying. But, because at least one of us is mistaken.

I dont take donations, I dont sell videos or cd's nothing. But it happened and it's true. Take that as you wish.

I never thought you did.

 

[MA2444]

LOL. It's hard to believe that you are serious. Are you playing a game with me here for your own amusement? If so, I'm not interested in that. I guarantee that I said nothing to indicate that I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I have been arguing against a pretrib rapture the whole time. Please slow down and read what I'm saying more carefully because in no way, shape or form have I said that I believe in a pre-trib rapture. Not even close.

I remember what you said, you said the rapture isnt after the tribulation. so I thought you may be a misunderstood pretribber after all? It was this morning that I seen that you made the comment something about there are two tribulations. And you lost me that. I never heard such a thing before. Pretrib. Posttrib. Two Tribs? So now I know that somehow that I dont understand yet, you sure aint pretrib.

LOL! I have explained what I believe in another post already and I assume you will see it. After I post this I will see what post number it was and then edit this post and let you know.

I guess I could have missed it. This thread has has been going fast! If I did read it perhaps it was unclear to me. (That's what bringing no preconceived notions or biases bring with it. i.e., I wonder what he meant by that?) Because you seem to have a wayy different perspective than I do. I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

Asking someone here on this Christian prophecy forum if they believe in prophecy or if they believe in God are not good questions.

Ok, let me rephrase it then. Fair enough? Daniel 9-10-11-12 is a prophecy given to Daniel from a Messenger of the Lord. Read those four short chapters and tell me if you think this prophecy is literal or allegorical?

Good enough?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now if I was too thin skinned, I'd be like, how dare you insult me like that?! (LOL. Sorry, couldnt resist). The way that I very slowly changed from a posttribber to a pretribber it didnt happen on a whim overnight. It took a bit of time. But bit by bit through learning of the Lord and developing a relationship with the Lord it brings things clearly over time.
I thought what? That doesn't sound like the kind of thing that the Lord I know would do. And at the same time prolly because of prayer, bits of information from the text of the word became filled in and the combination of the two made me realize one day uh-oh. I really have been wrong about posttrib. So today I am solidly pretrib and know it to the core of my being.

Keeping in mind that I was referencing 2 Peter 3:10-12, what exactly is it that you're saying the Lord wouldn't do? I'm sorry, but you are sometimes hard to follow (I know you think the same of me...oh well). Please be more specific as to what exactly you are talking about here. How do you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And in the day to day, I'll talk to posttribbers and discuss their views. That's the only way to be able to learn and grow is if I can set aside doctrinal bias and preconceived notions before I try to see what the other guy is saying.

Okay, so you are familiar with the post-trib view. But, it seems like you don't know much at all about amillennialism, which is the doctrinal perspective that I'm speaking from. Is that correct? I'm post-trib as well, but my understanding of the trib is different than most post-trib premillennialists.

And tis has been at least a somewhat effective technique for me because using that technique and having an open mind in the discussion has showed me where I have been wrong about things before (other things).
So it is a good learning technique and I know more now about the Lord than I ever have in my life before.

That doesnt mean I can not be wrong. It means I have a decent handle on it. Scripture talks about knowing God as an ocean or something. You go ankle deep, then shin deep, then waist deep shoulders, then over your head in the Spirit of the Lord and the knowledge of God. I feel like I am ankle deep, but I did have one guy say it sounds like I'm shin deep.

You do understand that most of us here believe we have a good handle on these things we talk about and, yet, we still disagree. So, it's not as if the closer you are to the Lord, the better you understand Bible prophecy. That isn't necessarily the case. I can find very mature Christians who pray often, help the poor and do all the things mature Christians should do but they completely disagree when it comes to Bible prophecy. People can claim that they don't bring bias and assumptions into it, but what else explains two people who otherwise agree on what the Bible teaches having such different beliefs when it comes to Bible prophecy?

Same thing with "the Mountain of God". It's a tall mountain, Brother! And the further you go, the steeper it gets and harder going. Not only that but the higher up you are if you fall and stumble, the more damage is done to you on impact! I don't feel very high on the mountain of God yet. But I'm not on the bottom flat ground.

I should tell you some testimonies about strange things that God did for me. I've never seen Him yet (that I can remember) but He walked in on me one time while I was checking emails. He didn't let me see Him, but He did speak audibly to me. And I knew who it was right away even before He spoke. Because there was a power and an intense Love in the air. It was like the air became energized and there's all these waves of love feelings radiating from Him. It was the most powerful presence of God that I have ever felt before, or since!

I have stories myself I could tell and many other Christians do as well, but I don't think this is the time and place for that. Takes enough time just to discuss the prophecies here, which is what this forum is for.

Most christians dont give the word of God proper credit or attention.

I tend to agree, but at the same time this isn't something we can know for sure. Most Christians in your experience maybe, which is only a small fraction of all Christians.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Word is translated two different ways in scripture. Logos, and Rhema. That Romans 10:17 verse is not Logos. It is Rhema. Anyone remember be led by the spirit? The Holy Spirit gives Rhemas. Dont neglect your Rhemas! It's a lot more that just text in the Bible. That book is haunted by the Holy Spirit! You pick it up and read and all of a sidden, you find yourself looking into a mirror! That's a Rhema. So there's two important componants that make up the word of God. The text and the Spirit. And you have to go before the text before you can ever get a Rhema from it. I suspect that the Bible will never pass away and we shall continue to study it in heaven. Because it's that good. It is literally God's word in print. and to me that is still the minor compnant of it. The Holy Spirit is the bigger componant of scripture. And if that Bible talks to you like a mirror and you see your self...you better listen!

Even Jesus and the HS says things that sting to me sometimes. I have said no to God before. But after I chewed on it for a bit and realized it was real, I did eventually obey him. I just listened and obeyed above my not wanting to do what He told me to do. I made the right decision for once, yay! (He brought all those Jonah stories to my rememberence, so I had to!)

Sometimes when I dont forget before I start reading the scriptures I say a little prayer for the HS to tech me and guide me into all truth and make a declation that I will be reading the word of God through my spirit and not carnally. It's soo important to not neglect the Logos or Rhemas by not reading the word evrry day. You grow faster spiritually I think.

I am fully aware of the growing process we have as Christians, but thanks for sharing, though.

 

[MA2444]

Maybe you should pay closer attention to what he is saying and give him a chance. Ask questions for clarification instead of making assumptions. And I mean questions about what he believes, not asking him if he believes in prophecy when he obviously does.

I have been communicating with him on forums for many years now and I know you could learn a lot from him if you just set aside the joking and unnecessary questions for a bit and gave him a chance.

Maybe we should really drop that like we keep threatening to? Lol. Look, me and him do not speak each others language. He seems obnoxious to me and I seem obnoxious to him. It happens sometimes even to people who are not too thin skinned, which he is imo. So we should let it go and not try to push a bad position. He is my brother in Christ, ok? I know we're on the same side and we are all in the body, right? So maybe he is a hand and I am a foot. Can a foot understand a hand? Is the foot wrong if he can't undertand the hand? No! But there different functions in the body. Personally, myself? I dont understand how hands work in the body, we're just different parts of the same body.
There. How diplomatic is that?!

Where did I say that His bride will experience God's wrath that is poured out upon the earth? I didn't. That isn't what I believe. So, why are you asking me this?

Because you seem to think that the rapture is post trib, so she would have to go through the Tribulation period. The Tribulation period is all about God's wrath and she was Not Apoointed to Wrath.

 

[The Light]

LOL. It doesn't, but also doesn't say that it is. And it doesn't say that one of the crowns that the elders are wearing is the crown of life. Can you see here that your view is based on speculation rather than clear scripture? What clear scripture do you have to support your doctrine? It seems that your doctrine is based primarily on one of the most difficult books to interpret in the entire Bible. That does not make for a strong foundation for one's doctrine.

There are two raptures. And both are before the wrath of God. And many can't find one.