The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

The Church is not mentioned again until Revelation 22.

Not true!

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[The Light]

Where is the rapture mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15? I assume you are referring to this:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Where is the rapture mentioned here? Nowhere. Will this happen at generally the same time as the rapture? Yes. But, this is not describing the rapture itself. The word rapture refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is not the mystery Paul referenced here. The mystery is that not all of us will die, but our bodies will all be changed to be incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet.

Now that was a bunch of hooey. It's not the rapture, but it's the rapture.

This illustrates a common problem with pre-tribs. They make things up that aren't true, such as saying that the rapture was a mystery until Paul wrote about it.

What?

No, Matthew and Mark both wrote about it as well. Mark, in particular, shows how when Jesus comes believers will be gathered both from heaven and from earth, which matches up with what we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. That passage first talks about those who are with Jesus when He comes. That would be those who are gathered from heaven. The souls of the dead in Christ. And it talks about those who are alive and remain. Those are the ones gathered from earth. So, the rapture (gathering of believers to the Lord) was not a mystery before Paul wrote about it. Our bodies being changed to be immortal at the last trumpet was a mystery before that.

1 Thes 4 is the grain harvest. The dead is Christ is the barley harvest. The Lord Himself will return for the wheat harvest.....the alive that remained. Learn the feasts of God.

Then after the tribulation He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Those gathered from heaven are the Church who are in heaven before the seals are opened. Those gathered for the earth are of the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman. They sing the song of Moses after this rapture.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

[WPM]

The Lord Himself is coming in 1 Thes 4. He sends His angels in Matthew 24 so that cannot be when He comes for the Church. The Church is seen in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are before the tribulation. The Church is not mentioned again until Revelation 22. I think we can safely conclude that the Lord comes before the tribulation for His Church.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple – “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (v2).

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming (or parousia), and of the end (or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation) of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the parousia of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (or parousia) of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

 

[The Light]

Where is your Scripture in Revelation to support this?

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[MA2444]

I missed the part where I said there was a 7 year tribulation. Please refer me to the post I made that said this. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that's about the people of Daniel.

It does talk about a 7 year tribulation in Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate..../KJV

And there's more to it of course but this is from where it starts to be taught.

We must remember that when it talks about weeks, they are to us years. 69 weeks were ended in May 14th 1948 so only one week of days is left, or 7 years. The Tribulation period is the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened and the 24 elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come.

Nothing but an assumption on your part. You have nothing concrete to support your doctrine. Your entire doctrine is based on assumptions you make about the most symbolic book in the entire Bible. That's not a solid foundation for a doctrine.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and the people of Daniel are known as Gods elect. Additionally, we know that Israel will be the second harvest as they served Baalpeor.

We (Christians) are known as God's elect now! How about you join us in the New Testament era?

Here's Paul addressing Jew and Gentile believers in the church in Colosse:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here's Paul addressing Gentile (and maybe a few Jews?) believers in the church of Thessalonica:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Here is Paul addressing the Ephesian believers:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

When it comes to who the elect are that will be gathered when Jesus comes, it's clearly referring to those who are in His church.

I have to resort to clarifying as there will be two folds that will be melded into one. The mostly Gentile Church will be the first fold.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You are badly misinterpreting John 10. The two folds that Jesus was talking about were the Jewish fold of Jewish believers and the Gentile fold of Gentile believers. And He said they would be one fold which has to do with both groups (Jew and Gentile believers) being brought together as one by way of His shed blood, as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:11-22. Your interpretation of John 10 doesn't line up with other scripture. You are making things up.

In other words, I take scripture literally and you want to spiritualize it.

This is a common thing that pre-tribs (and even some post-trib premils) try to say, but it's nonsense and completely false. I take scripture literally when it's literal and spiritually when it's spiritual. I don't assume that any given verse or passage is either literal or spiritual.

Tell me, do you take the following scripture literally?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus clearly taught here that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same hour/time, including all who "have done good" (the saved) and all who "have done evil" (the lost). If you took this literally you would not believe in multiple mass resurrections of the dead at multiple different times as you do. So, don't try to tell me that you always take scripture literally. You do not. My doctrine is based on taking passages like the above literally. It's very ironic when people try to criticize me for not taking scripture literally when the main scriptures I use to support my doctrine are meant to be taken literally.

LOL. Please I can produce a plethora of evidence that there are two raptures.

Nothing that is convincing. It's all based on wild speculation and assumptions. You have no straightforward scripture to support your view. Such as John 5:28-29, for example.

We can determine that it is the Jews that are raptured immediately after the tribulation. That's FACT.

Jewish believers will be. Along with Gentile believers. At the one future rapture.

You can certainly ignore what is written and pretend the 144,000 is the Church. But that is not FACT.

I can certainly ignore your false interpretations of what is written and I will continue to do so. My doctrine is not dependent on the 144,000 being the church, so this comment is meaningless to me. Your doctrine, however, is entirely dependent on the 144,000 not being the church or even part of the church.

 

[WPM]

Now that was a bunch of hooey...

1 Thes 4 is the grain harvest. The dead is Christ is the barley harvest. The Lord Himself will return for the wheat harvest.....the alive that remained. Learn the feasts of God.

Talk about gibberish. You seem to be making it up as you go. It is pointless asking you to prove this in the sacred pages because you know, and we know, it is derived from your Left Behind mentors.

 

[WPM]

It does talk about a 7 year tribulation in Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate..../KJV

And there's more to it of course but this is from where it starts to be taught.

We must remember that when it talks about weeks, they are to us years. 69 weeks were ended in May 14th 1948 so only one week of days is left, or 7 years. The Tribulation period is the 70th week of Daniel.

1. Where is there any mention of the Church in Daniel 9.
2. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
6. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
7. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
9. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
10. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
11. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[WPM]

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Where is your future rapture of the Church in Revelation? Where is your 7-year-trib? Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation? Where is your 2nd rapture in Revelation?

 

[MA2444]

You acted as if 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 can be used as proof for pre-trib even though it says nothing about the tribulation there at all.

It does though. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about the rapture.

 

[WPM]

It does though. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about the rapture.

But this is the end. There is no tribulation following it. It is the end of the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now that was a bunch of hooey. It's not the rapture, but it's the rapture.

LOL! You're not even trying. You are believing what you want to believe. That is very clear. You are making no effort here at all to research what the word "rapture" means.

The term "rapture" comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” It has nothing to do with people's bodies being changed, but rather relates specifically to the act of being caught up from the earth to meet the Lord in the air. So, I stand by what I said. Paul very specifically stated what the mystery is and it's not the idea of us being gathered to Christ when He comes.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here is the mystery. Nothing about the mystery including being gathered to Christ! So, stop making things up! The mystery is that we won't all die, but we will all be changed to have incorruptible bodies. That's it. Adding to what Paul said here is a case of trying to change scripture to fit your doctrine, which is dishonest and shameful.

1 Thes 4 is the grain harvest. The dead is Christ is the barley harvest. The Lord Himself will return for the wheat harvest.....the alive that remained. Learn the feasts of God.

Where did Paul explain this? Oh yeah, he didn't. Why? Because it isn't true. It's something you're making up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It does though. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about the rapture.

Yes, it is. I never said otherwise. But, where does that text indicate that it's a pre-trib rapture? I'm not saying it doesn't talk about the rapture, I'm saying it doesn't indicate that it's pre-trib.

 

[WPM]

Where did Paul explain this? Oh yeah, he didn't. Why? Because it isn't true. It's something you're making up.

Bro, this sums up Pretrib. It is a concoction of extra-biblical theories that are foisted upon the sacred text. Scripture is manipulated to mean whatever Pretribbers want it to say. Sad!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bro, this sums up Pretrib. It is a concoction of extra-biblical theories that are foisted upon the sacred text. Scripture is manipulated to mean whatever Pretribbers want it to say. Sad!

It's truly unbelievable. The dishonesty I see from them is just disgusting. Christians should know better than that. They try to say that they take scripture literally and we spiritualize it all despite the fact that our doctrine is based on clear, straightforward scripture that we use to help us interpret the more difficult scriptures. Pre-tribs do it the other way around which results in total convoluted nonsense.

Do pre-tribs take John 5:28-29 literally which means there will be one mass resurrection event of all the dead? No, they believe in at least 3 or 4 mass resurrection events. Do they take 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 literally when it says ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes? No, they think some dead believers will be resurrected before a pre-trib rapture, others will be resurrected 7 or so years later and then others 1000+ years later and who knows when else. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[WPM]

It's truly unbelievable. The dishonesty I see from them is just disgusting. Christians should know better than that. They try to say that they take scripture literally and we spiritualize it all despite the fact that our doctrine is based on clear, straightforward scripture that we use to help us interpret the more difficult scriptures. Pre-tribs do it the other way around which results in total convoluted nonsense.

Do pre-tribs take John 5:28-29 literally which means there will be one mass resurrection event of all the dead? No, they believe in at least 3 or 4 mass resurrection events. Do they take 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 literally when it says ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes? No, they think some dead believers will be resurrected before a pre-trib rapture, others will be resurrected 7 or so years later and then others 1000+ years later and who knows when else. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

Agree! Look at the amount of Scripture, arguments and questions they duck around. They cannot even support their sweeping claims with hard Scripture. They seem to imagine, claiming a thing is evidence. The onlooker can judge for themselves what is true and what is nonsense. It is so obvious. They cannot address the simplest of rebuttals. To do so would force them to admit that they are promoting man-made error.

 

[The Light]

Nothing but an assumption on your part. You have nothing concrete to support your doctrine. Your entire doctrine is based on assumptions you make about the most symbolic book in the entire Bible. That's not a solid foundation for a doctrine.

The problem you have is that the scripture does not agree with you. You try to get around that by claiming symbolism.

We (Christians) are known as God's elect now! How about you join us in the New Testament era?

Here's Paul addressing Jew and Gentile believers in the church in Colosse:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here's Paul addressing Gentile (and maybe a few Jews?) believers in the church of Thessalonica:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Here is Paul addressing the Ephesian believers:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

When it comes to who the elect are that will be gathered when Jesus comes, it's clearly referring to those who are in His church.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why all you guys think it's about the Gentiles is a puzzle.

You are badly misinterpreting John 10. The two folds that Jesus was talking about were the Jewish fold of Jewish believers and the Gentile fold of Gentile believers. And He said they would be one fold which has to do with both groups (Jew and Gentile believers) being brought together as one by way of His shed blood, as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:11-22. Your interpretation of John 10 doesn't line up with other scripture. You are making things up.

You claims are unfounded. We both know who is making things up.

There are two folds. The Gentiles are the first harvest. We hear His voice. After the first rapture there are other sheep not of that fold that will have their blindness remove and then hear His voice. They will be the second fold. Both folds into one.

This is a common thing that pre-tribs (and even some post-trib premils) try to say, but it's nonsense and completely false. I take scripture literally when it's literal and spiritually when it's spiritual. I don't assume that any given verse or passage is either literal or spiritual.

And yet you claim that the Church is the 144,000 which is making things up.

Tell me, do you take the following scripture literally?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus clearly taught here that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same hour/time, including all who "have done good" (the saved) and all who "have done evil" (the lost). If you took this literally you would not believe in multiple mass resurrections of the dead at multiple different times as you do. So, don't try to tell me that you always take scripture literally. You do not. My doctrine is based on taking passages like the above literally. It's very ironic when people try to criticize me for not taking scripture literally when the main scriptures I use to support my doctrine are meant to be taken literally.

I take that literally.

Now let me ask you this. If you are a very, very, very, good person but have rejected Christ are you going to come out of the grave to the resurrection of life?????????????????????

Nothing that is convincing. It's all based on wild speculation and assumptions. You have no straightforward scripture to support your view. Such as John 5:28-29, for example.

OK. Let's deal with that. Answer this question. Where is the very, very, good person that rejects Christ going?

Jewish believers will be. Along with Gentile believers. At the one future rapture.

The fig tree has two harvests, there are two folds, one coming like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot. Jacob had two brides. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and their eyes are not opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

I can certainly ignore your false interpretations of what is written and I will continue to do so. My doctrine is not dependent on the 144,000 being the church, so this comment is meaningless to me. Your doctrine, however, is entirely dependent on the 144,000 not being the church or even part of the church.

They are not the Church because the Word tells you they are not the Church. If you want to deny what is written I can't help that.

 

[The Light]

Where is your future rapture of the Church in Revelation?

The elders with crowns prove Jesus has come and the kings and priest of Rev 5 are the Church.

Where is your 7-year-trib?

Where is your 1,024,547 year tribulation?

Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation?

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Where is your 2nd rapture in Revelation?

Revelation 19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[The Light]

Agree! Look at the amount of Scripture, arguments and questions they duck around. They cannot even support their sweeping claims with hard Scripture. They seem to imagine, claiming a thing is evidence. The onlooker can judge for themselves what is true and what is nonsense. It is so obvious. They cannot address the simplest of rebuttals. To do so would force them to admit that they are promoting man-made error.

The only thing I'm ducking is where you claim I said the tribulation was 7 years.

As for posting scripture, I post it all the time.

I did not have time to read your long cut and paste responses as I am getting ready to watch the BB Game and don't have the time.

As for His scripture about the dead all rising at the same time I have already posted the scriptures that prove he is wrong found and he knows it.

He wants to claim that I do not take scripture literally like I say I do............but he doesn't understand the scripture he is posting. Maybe when he answers the question I asked he will figure it out.

 

[WPM]

The elders with crowns prove Jesus has come and the kings and priest of Rev 5 are the Church.

Like I thought: you do not have a Pretrib rapture in Revelation. You force it in there. It is therefore pointless asking for your 2nd invented rapture, because you don't even have a 1st.

Where is your 1,024,547 year tribulation?

You obviously cannot find your 7-year trib in Revelation either. This is looking bad for your doctrine. You have nothing to support Pretrib. It is obviously extra-biblical. I do not have to prove the length of the Amil trib, as it is active and ongoing. I do not claim its duration as you do. The Bible doesn't say.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Is this your 3rd coming and 2nd rapture? Where does it mention the "Church" or a "rapture" here?