The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[The Light]

Where is a 7-yr tribulation in that passage?

I missed the part where I said there was a 7 year tribulation. Please refer me to the post I made that said this. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that's about the people of Daniel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I constantly see posts that claim that the Church is raptured after the tribulation. I ask where is the Church mentioned in the verses of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Never do get an answer..........because it's not there.

I have answered that multiple times. The elect in the New Testament era are those who are in the Church. We see that repeatedly in the New Testament. Very simple.

That's because it's not the mostly Gentile Church being raptured in those verses.

There is no "Gentile Church". You have to resort to making things up to support your doctrine.

The Lord comes for His Church before the seals are opened. We can tell that by Revelation 3, 4 and 5.

No, we can't tell that from that scripture. Your doctrine is built on assumptions made about text found within the most symbolic book in the Bible rather than on straightforward scripture.

In the verses of Matthew 24 we see that the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth and it's after the tribulation of those days. When the Lord comes for His Church it will be the Lord Himself coming. He won't be sending His angels.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again, your doctrine is based on nothing but assumptions. This is a horrible approach to interpreting scripture. You conclude that if two passages don't contain all the same details then they can't be speaking of the same event. That is ludicrous. Do you also conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 is not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 because it doesn't mention any believers being gathered?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I missed the part where I said there was a 7 year tribulation. Please refer me to the post I made that said this. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that's about the people of Daniel.

You acted as if 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 can be used as proof for pre-trib even though it says nothing about the tribulation there at all.

 

[Wick Stick]

You acted as if 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 can be used as proof for pre-trib even though it says nothing about the tribulation there at all.

It does refer twice to "those who are alive and remain." If you talk about survivors, doesn't that imply that there was some sort of persecution or tribulation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It does refer twice to "those who are alive and remain." If you talk about survivors, doesn't that imply that there was some sort of persecution or tribulation?

It can imply that, sure. Paul may very well have assumed his readers would refer to Matthew 24:29-31 to know what he was talking about. Remain after what? The tribulation of those days that Jesus talked about. It's quite possible that is why he worded it that way. But, in that case the passage would support post-trib and not pre-trib. It certainly does not support pre-trib on its own in any way, shape or form.

 

[The Light]

You acted as if 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 can be used as proof for pre-trib even though it says nothing about the tribulation there at all.

The Lord Himself is coming in 1 Thes 4. He sends His angels in Matthew 24 so that cannot be when He comes for the Church. The Church is seen in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are before the tribulation. The Church is not mentioned again until Revelation 22. I think we can safely conclude that the Lord comes before the tribulation for His Church.

 

[WPM]

I missed the part where I said there was a 7 year tribulation. Please refer me to the post I made that said this. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that's about the people of Daniel.

Where is a rapture (or the second coming) mentioned in Daniel 9?

 

[WPM]

The Lord Himself is coming in 1 Thes 4. He sends His angels in Matthew 24 so that cannot be when He comes for the Church. The Church is seen in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are before the tribulation. The Church is not mentioned again until Revelation 22. I think we can safely conclude that the Lord comes before the tribulation for His Church.

You totally avoided his question.

 

[marks]

Where is a rapture (or the second coming) mentioned in Daniel 9?

Why would the rapture be in the OT?? It's a NT mystery, not OT prophecy.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

It does refer twice to "those who are alive and remain." If you talk about survivors, doesn't that imply that there was some sort of persecution or tribulation?

Yes, when He comes for us. Tribulation (or survival) is always depicted before His deliverance.

 

[WPM]

Why would the rapture be in the OT?? It's a NT mystery, not OT prophecy.

Much love!

Where does it say that in the Bible (i am not talking about the Left Behind novels)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Lord Himself is coming in 1 Thes 4. He sends His angels in Matthew 24 so that cannot be when He comes for the Church.

That is a ridiculous conclusion. You can't conclude that two passages can't be related just because they don't contain all of the same details. There are no contradictions that can be found between 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27).

Using this kind of flawed logic, we could conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 is also not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 because it doesn't talk about any believers being gathered. So, do you think that Revelation 19:11-21 is not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31?

The Church is seen in heaven before the seals are opened.

Do you understand that the souls of believers go to heaven when we physically die? The souls of dead believers are portrayed in heaven in the book of Revelation. That is most obvious in passages like Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4. So, why do you assume that any references to believers in heaven is talking about believers with immortal bodies?

The seals are before the tribulation. The Church is not mentioned again until Revelation 22. I think we can safely conclude that the Lord comes before the tribulation for His Church.

This is absolute nonsense that can't be taken seriously whatsoever.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Don't try to tell me that those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are not in the Church. They most certainly are. If they aren't, then no one is.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints are another word for Christians. The Church is made up of saints. Don't try to tell me these persecuted saints are not in the Church. They most certainly are.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Again, don't try to tell me that this isn't referring to people in the Church. It most certainly is. The Church is made up of "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

 

[marks]

Where does it say that in the Bible (i am not talking about the Left Behind novels)?

Left behind novels?? What are you reading those for?

Where does it say what? That the rapture is revealed as mystery, and not OT prophecy? 1 Corinthians 15, for instance, behold, I show you a mystery . . . that means something you wouldn't know otherwise, except he is now telling you. So it wasn't in the OT, if it's only being revealed in the NT.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

The Lord comes for His Church before the seals are opened. We can tell that by Revelation 3, 4 and 5.

Instead of making sweeping statements like this: give us hard Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church here followed by your supposed 7-yr tribulation. It sounds like more private interpretation to me.

 

[WPM]

Left behind novels?? What are you reading those for?

Where does it say what? That the rapture is revealed as mystery, and not OT prophecy? 1 Corinthians 15, for instance, behold, I show you a mystery . . . that means something you wouldn't know otherwise, except he is now telling you. So it wasn't in the OT, if it's only being revealed in the NT.

Much love!

Not only do you not have anything in the Old Testament, you obviously have nothing in the New Testament either. 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 has nothing to do with what you are claiming. It declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [Gr. allasso], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed [Gr. allasso]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage is describing the great supernatural change that occurs to God’s people when Jesus returns and takes them from a temporal fallen “flesh and blood” existence to an eternal glorified condition. Corruptibility and mortality are shown here to be interlinked. Incorruption and immortality are also shown to be enjoined. They describe the two converse states existing in two completely different dimensions.

 

[The Light]

I have answered that multiple times. The elect in the New Testament era are those who are in the Church. We see that repeatedly in the New Testament. Very simple.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened and the 24 elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and the people of Daniel are known as Gods elect. Additionally, we know that Israel will be the second harvest as they served Baalpeor.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

There is no "Gentile Church". You have to resort to making things up to support your doctrine.

I have to resort to clarifying as there will be two folds that will be melded into one. The mostly Gentile Church will be the first fold.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

No, we can't tell that from that scripture. Your doctrine is built on assumptions made about text found within the most symbolic book in the Bible rather than on straightforward scripture.

In other words, I take scripture literally and you want to spiritualize it.

Again, your doctrine is based on nothing but assumptions. This is a horrible approach to interpreting scripture. You conclude that if two passages don't contain all the same details then they can't be speaking of the same event. That is ludicrous. Do you also conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 is not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 because it doesn't mention any believers being gathered?

LOL. Please I can produce a plethora of evidence that there are two raptures. We can determine that it is the Jews that are raptured immediately after the tribulation. That's FACT.

You can certainly ignore what is written and pretend the 144,000 is the Church. But that is not FACT.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Left behind novels?? What are you reading those for?

Where does it say what? That the rapture is revealed as mystery, and not OT prophecy? 1 Corinthians 15, for instance, behold, I show you a mystery . . . that means something you wouldn't know otherwise, except he is now telling you. So it wasn't in the OT, if it's only being revealed in the NT.

Where is the rapture mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15? I assume you are referring to this:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Where is the rapture mentioned here? Nowhere. Will this happen at generally the same time as the rapture? Yes. But, this is not describing the rapture itself. The word rapture refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is not the mystery Paul referenced here. The mystery is that not all of us will die, but our bodies will all be changed to be incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet.

This illustrates a common problem with pre-tribs. They make things up that aren't true, such as saying that the rapture was a mystery until Paul wrote about it. No, Matthew and Mark both wrote about it as well. Mark, in particular, shows how when Jesus comes believers will be gathered both from heaven and from earth (Mark 13:24-27), which matches up with what we see in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. That passage first talks about those who are with Jesus when He comes. That would be those who are gathered from heaven. The souls of the dead in Christ. And it talks about those who are alive and remain. Those are the ones gathered from earth. So, the rapture (gathering of believers to the Lord) was not a mystery before Paul wrote about it. Our bodies being changed to be immortal at the last trumpet was a mystery before that.

 

[The Light]

Instead of making sweeping statements like this: give us hard Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church here followed by your supposed 7-yr tribulation. It sounds like more private interpretation to me.

Still waiting for you to show where you got the idea that I claim a 7 year tribulation. I will claim that there is a 70th week of Daniel but that is about the people of Daniel.

 

[WPM]

I missed the part where I said there was a 7 year tribulation. Please refer me to the post I made that said this. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that's about the people of Daniel.

How long then is your great trib?

 

[WPM]

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened and the 24 elders have crowns showing that Jesus has come.

Where is your Scripture in Revelation to support this?