The fruits of OSAS and fruits its Opponent theolgy

[Phoneman777]

James, the brother of Jesus under the aegis of the Holy Spirit, declares that men are justified by works, not faith alone. Whatever conclusion you draw about the meaning of James' words, it absolutely cannot be "works are non-essential to salvation", which is what so many in here do. Works are an essential component in a saved person's life, but only as evidence of that salvation, not the means by which it is obtained.

Paul are James are not fighting each other - they both are standing back to back in the middle of the road, the one opposing the ditch of Legalism (radical Conservatism), and the other the ditch of License (radical Liberalism), either in which Satan is perfectly happy for us to fall.

We need to recognize that the problem today is not Legalism, but rampant radical Liberalism. Pro-License Christian Liberals have shifted the middle of the road to their side and now claim that if you aren't over there with them, then you are lost in the ditch of Legalism. They've done the same things in politics, where what used to be "Left" is now "Far Left Radicalism", what used to be "Center" is now "Left", and what used to be "Right" is now "Center", so that if anyone today takes a historically right position on any issue, they are accused by the left of "Right Wing Extremism".

Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do, Amen.

 

[Zachary]

I asked you a simple and direct question which you just now avoided and deflected on. Answer the question.
I can't be bothered discussing things with people that avoid the issue and just obfuscate the truth.

Please refer to the forum, thread, and post # wherein you asked the question. Thanks.

 

[Jun2u]

The problem with those who do not believe in the doctrine of OSAS is because of their lack of understanding the concept of salvation. Not that they don't understand scriptures rather, they do not know how to connect the dots.

God wrote extensively about salvation throughout the Bible and scriptures teach we are given eternal life upon conversion. Case in point is the thief on the cross. Jesus told him, “this day you will be with Me in Paradise”. We see right in front of our very eyes God's salvation! When God saves it is in the present tense. The word “eternal” means forevermore but there are those who turn this word around to mean those who became saved can still fall away because they say the saved still sin, and they equate this to mean a “license to sin”. A child of God has also been born again upon salvation, and since those who do not know how to connect the dots/scriptures they will miss the points of 1John 3:9.

A man has two parts, a body and a soul. When God saves a person he is saved ONLY in his soul/spirit essence not in his body. The proof of this is if he dies before Christ returns his soul goes to be with Christ in heaven (2Co 5:8), and his body returns to the dust until he is raised on the last day, however; if he is living before Christ returns, in his soul essence which is saved his desire is not to want to sin, and in his body which is not yet saved he still desires to sin. We see this in Ro 7:24 as Paul cried out, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” The context of this verse begins in verse 15 through verse 25.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Please refer to the forum, thread, and post # wherein you asked the question. Thanks.

Please pay attention.

 

[KingJ]

1. Mat 7:16 is talking about how to identify false prophets, not how to identify if one has faith. Jesus talked about how to do that in the 6th chapter, and it was not for men to see, but for God to see.

2. "Fruits" we are supposed to have are listed in Eph 5 and i believe Gal 5. They aren't works we do but attributes we have.

3. Thankyou for the clatification on "mortal sin". The concept is obsolete, however, because Jamed,Paul and Jesus noted if you break the smallest commandments you are guilty of all.

4. Your point about vanity and Mat 7:22 is a stretch. Thats not what it says.

1. You really want to brush the verse away just because the first line says false prophets? This line seems pretty universal '' Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit''.

2. Love Eph 5 and Gal 5. I like how Eph 5 starts with a long list of bad fruit that cannot come from a good tree.

3. No, mortal sins are not obsolete. You are not understanding that sin has condemned nobody to hell. There is a universe of difference between the person that loves sin and the person that hates sin John 3:19. You have not grasped the point I made on Rom 7:15. Nor how Jesus qualifies His statement in Matt 5:28 with vs Matt 5:32.

In 1 Cor 5 (and even your Eph 5 and Gal 5) was Paul talking suggesting we remove from fellowship those bad trees that feed their kids too much candy?

4. Feeding and helping orphans and widows generally gets one NO attention. Imagine going to church and sharing on how you changed an old ladies light-bulb after someone just shared on their incredible session of exorcism. There is a reason James 1:27 says these '''deeds'' are religion undefiled.

 

[KingJ]

PS FHI, I am talking to you nervously because I have agreed with many of your posts before. I do respect you and your posts. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, I need to work on my replies I think .

 

[FHII]

1. You really want to brush the verse away just because the first line says false prophets? This line seems pretty universal '' Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit''.

2. Love Eph 5 and Gal 5. I like how Eph 5 starts with a long list of bad fruit that cannot come from a good tree.

3. No, mortal sins are not obsolete. You are not understanding that sin has condemned nobody to hell. There is a universe of difference between the person that loves sin and the person that hates sin John 3:19. You have not grasped the point I made on Rom 7:15. Nor how Jesus qualifies His statement in Matt 5:28 with vs Matt 5:32.

In 1 Cor 5 (and even your Eph 5 and Gal 5) was Paul talking suggesting we remove from fellowship those bad trees that feed their kids too much candy?

4. Feeding and helping orphans and widows generally gets one NO attention. Imagine going to church and sharing on how you changed an old ladies light-bulb after someone just shared on their incredible session of exorcism. There is a reason James 1:27 says these '''deeds'' are religion undefiled.

1. I've been a bit grumpy lately with folks taking things out of context. If you want to apply Mat 7:17 universally, fine. Paul himself did that a few times. But at least first understand it in its original context (which I'm sure you do).

We are talking about works and whether they are evidence of faith. My position is that works of the flesh - no matter how kind they are- are not evidence to God. To men, yes. God is looking purely at faith and good works which only are seen by him.

2. Its Gal 5 that starts with a long list of bad fruit. It also identifies the bad tree as being the flesh. The tree that bears good fruits is the spirit. Grace through faith telks us that God isn't looking at the bad tree.

3. Do you see my point about if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of all? I say its obsolete because as far as i can see, without grace one small sin will land you in hell just as quick as 3 big ones.

As for romans 7:15 i don't believe Paul was talking about his former sins, but his current state. As for Mat 5... Nope... Can't recall your points so please refresh my memory on what you were getting at.

4. Charity in general gets plenty of attention if publicized. Now a church that isn't celebrating those small things clearly is in the wrong. Shoot... I thank God and celebrate finding a mere penny on the ground! And many in my church do as well because we are keen on celebrating EVERY blessing God sends.

But my point was along the lines of Mat 6. If you do things and publicize it, thats your reward. Do it in secret before God and he will reward you openly.

I appreciate the kind words. Thanks!

 

[KingJ]

1. I've been a bit grumpy lately with folks taking things out of context. If you want to apply Mat 7:17 universally, fine. Paul himself did that a few times. But at least first understand it in its original context (which I'm sure you do).

We are talking about works and whether they are evidence of faith. My position is that works of the flesh - no matter how kind they are- are not evidence to God. To men, yes. God is looking purely at faith and good works which only are seen by him.

2. Its Gal 5 that starts with a long list of bad fruit. It also identifies the bad tree as being the flesh. The tree that bears good fruits is the spirit. Grace through faith telks us that God isn't looking at the bad tree.

3. Do you see my point about if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of all? I say its obsolete because as far as i can see, without grace one small sin will land you in hell just as quick as 3 big ones.

As for romans 7:15 i don't believe Paul was talking about his former sins, but his current state. As for Mat 5... Nope... Can't recall your points so please refresh my memory on what you were getting at.

4. Charity in general gets plenty of attention if publicized. Now a church that isn't celebrating those small things clearly is in the wrong. Shoot... I thank God and celebrate finding a mere penny on the ground! And many in my church do as well because we are keen on celebrating EVERY blessing God sends.

But my point was along the lines of Mat 6. If you do things and publicize it, thats your reward. Do it in secret before God and he will reward you openly.

I appreciate the kind words. Thanks!

1. Well I re read my posts and realized I would argue with me :lol:.
3. I don't believe any sin gets us into hell. Sin separates us from God. Separation is not hell VS heaven. There was Abrahams bosom and there is earth. Loving sin = hell. John 3:19 is crystal clear on that. Being capable of mortal sins = loving sin.

In Matt 5:28 Jesus says the thought of adultery = adultery to make the point that we all have sin crystal clear. But then in Matt 5:32 Jesus makes it clear that only actual sexual immorality / adultery (not the thought) is grounds for divorce.

4. Agree with all you said. But I still think you missing the meaning of the two verses. Matt 7:22 mentions 1. Miracles, 2. exorcisms and 3. prophecy. All these puff self up / get godlike attention from others far quicker then if we were helping orphans and widows.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus told him, “this day you will be with Me in Paradise”.

Actually, Jesus said, “I say unto you today thou shalt be with me in Paradise.” This verse can be understood two ways, only one being the truth:
1. “I say unto you, Today thou shalt be...” meaning both would go to Paradise that day.
2. “I say unto you today, Thou shalt be...” meaning Jesus was profoundly declaring that day what would be in the distant future.

Number 1 can't be true, b/c neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that Friday: Jesus said Sunday, “I have not yet ascended to the Father” in Paradise, and the fact that the legs of the thieves were broken indicates they were still alive as they took them down from the crosses as Friday ended and Sabbath began with the setting of the sun.

The word “eternal” means forevermore but there are those who turn this word around to mean those who became saved can still fall away because they say the saved still sin, and they equate this to mean a “license to sin”.

Yes, eternal salvation on condition that we “abide in the Vine”. There are so many Scriptures to indicate that eternal salvation is conditional on our continual freewill surrender to Jesus that we really shouldn't be having this discussion. The Unmerciful Servant is proof positive that a sinner forgiven and saved by grace from the consequences of the impossible sin debt – symbolized by the 10,000 talents which are equivalent to about 160,000 years of annual income which none could ever hope to repay – can find himself once again under condemnation for refusing to allow his character to be formed into the likeness of the Master.

A man has two parts, a body and a soul.

Actually, the "Living Soul” is the "whole" that is formed as a consequence of the union of the two "parts" of the Soul: God's Spirit and the elements that make up a body, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV.

At death, when this union is broken, the Spirit returns to God just as it was when it originally came from God before a person begins their existence as a “Living Soul'. It came from God wholly apart from whatever emotions, thoughts, or anything that pertains to the person it is destined to make alive as it travels from God to him, and it returns to God wholly apart from whatever emotions, thoughts, or anything pertaining to the person who suffered death as a result of the Spirit's return trip to God. The idea that the Spirit and the Soul are really not much different or even the same is not Biblical. Hebrews 4:12 KJV says clearly that the Soul and Spirit can be separated one from the other, just as Genesis 2:7 KJV declares that the Soul only exists as a consequence of the union between the Spirit and the Body.