The Four Stages of Mankind's Redemption:

[quietthinker]

It is quite wrong to call such a literal Prophecy, as figurative. Figurative of what?

If it was explained it to you Keraz, would you hear it? believe it?

 

[quietthinker]

My hope is for everyone to realize how close we are to the Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies. The terrible Day like: As it was in the days of Noah.... and the world will never be the same again.

God never sent fire in the days of Noah.

 

[Keraz]

If it was explained it to you Keraz, would you hear it? believe it?

Yes, I am happy to carefully consider any viable, reasonable explanation.
I do not claim to know it all.

God never sent fire in the days of Noah.

He sent water and after only 8 people survived that disaster, God Promised to never again flood the world.
Over 70 Prophesies tell us the next time He will reset our civilization, it will be by fire. Hebrews 10:26-27

 

[Zao is life]

“There is no proof of ignorance that is more common than proud knowledge. Those who understand their own ignorance are ones who know best.” God is the source of all knowledge.

When we believe that knowledge comes through our great intellect or is expressed only through our eloquent words, we are becoming a fool. Proverbs 9:18 tells us that “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” Without God, we know nothing.

The Apostle Paul was often criticized for his lack of eloquence. He responded by saying he only sought to know Christ and him, crucified. The power of the Gospel speaks for itself. Proud knowledge is the language of fools and only broadcasts our ignorance.
Ref: Ken Barnes

I agree with the above and with some but not all of what you say in your OP.

I think someone who replied here missed that you said that Gentiles who believe in Christ are the seed of the house of Israel / the Northern kingdom - spiritually, but not genetically. I agree with that.

Our timing is not the same. I have them being gathered together into the land following the resurrection of the dead, and in a new heavens and earth, and I disagree with you completely regarding what you've said elsewhere about the new reunited nation of Israel only receiving the New Covenant at that time.

 

[Keraz]

I agree with the above and with some but not all of what you say in your OP.

I think someone who replied here missed that you said that Gentiles who believe in Christ are the seed of the house of Israel / the Northern kingdom - spiritually, but not genetically. I agree with that.

Our timing is not the same. I have them being gathered together into the land following the resurrection of the dead, and in a new heavens and earth, and I disagree with you completely regarding what you've said elsewhere about the new reunited nation of Israel only receiving the New Covenant at that time.

A reply without the usual aggro and flat rejections. Thanks!

Genetically; everyone alive today has some of Abrahams genes.
God has fulfilled His Promises - thru Moses and Jacob, to bless the exiled House of Israel. It is quite evident they are the Christian peoples of the Western nations.

The faithful Christians will gather and live in peace and prosperity in all of the Promised Land, before Jesus Returns. This is proved by Revelation 12:14 & 17 & Romans 9:24-26....in the very same place, where ancient Israel was exiled from.
They will be the great multitude who John sees in Jerusalem; in Revelation 7:9. Jesus will be revealed to them. Rev 14:1

the rest of the dead do not rise until the thousand years is over. Revelation 20:5 For the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, I am happy to carefully consider any viable, reasonable explanation.
I do not claim to know it all.

Isaiah wrote from his understanding and world view. Here are a few examples where he didn't always get it right, just as Elijah didn't always get it right and neither did Moses. Poor ole Judas who hang around with Jesus for years didn't join the dots well either. Unfortunately his final choice wasn't a good one.

None of the Prophets had ever imagined that Messiah would be Divine. They thought and wrote from the perspective of Messiah being a military leader akin to King David.
Their perspective fell short.

I know, you might be shocked to hear these things being said for your own various reasons, but bear with me....hear me out.

Example 1
Isaiah 45:7 says, 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things', while....
1 John 1:5 declares 'This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (darkness meaning among other things, evil)

Who had they heard from? wasn't it Jesus? Wasn't it the beloved Son declared to be so both at his Baptism and on the Mountain? They were told by the voice from the cloud (God) to listen to the Son for unmitigated accuracy in preference to Moses or Elijah (ie, the Prophets) who appeared alongside with Jesus.

It was from the Prophets that Israel formed their view. Their view fell short. Now a new and greater authority was amongst them and it was to him they were to listen.

Example 2
Isaiah 65:20 states, 'No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days, or an old man fail to live out his years. For the youth will die at a hundred years, and he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed', while....
Revelation 21: 2-5 mirrors Isaiah 65:17-19 '
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. ‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Getting the proper perspective is what we want isn't it? If we allow our paradigm to be shaped over and above Jesus' statements we not only face contradictions, we actually reject God's only eyewitness of himself. John 1:18

Example 3
Here is one final example to highlight the superior authority of Jesus when he says 'you have heard it said BUT I say unto you. The 'BUT' nullifying what was previously said. Jesus raises the bar of what they thought they understood, the kicker being in verse 39....and I would ask, does God (Jesus) command things he wouldn't live up to himself?

Matthew 5:17-48

Murder​

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery​

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce​

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths​

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all:either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Eye for Eye​

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaish 65:20 He who dies at 100, is just a youth......
So; now you are outed as a denier of scripture. It is quite wrong to call such a literal Prophecy, as figurative. Figurative of what?

No, I accept the obvious, which is that Isaiah 65:17-25 is all about the new heavens and new earth. D

I have told you many times that Isaiah 65:20 is figurative for eternity. Being just a youth at 100 is a figurative representation of the fact that no one will age during eternity. Isaiah was describing eternity in a way that people could understand at the time since the concept of eternity was not understood back then. It was not understood until Jesus came and the New Testament was written.

You have people dying in the future and no one mourning their deaths. Talk about being outed as a denier of scripture! When your doctrine leads you to believe nonsense like that then you know it's false.

n my REBible, it says that flying object is like a barrel.
It surely is not an actual scroll. Saying it is a scroll, is arrant stupidity.

Throw your REBible in the trash because that's a terrible translation of the verse. Of course it's not an actual scroll and it's not an actual barrel, either. It's symbolism! Think! There are things written in each side of the scroll. Symbols do not need to resemble what they symbolize in reality. You have no understanding of symbolism. Do you think what the beast with seven heads and ten horns symbolizes in reality looks like a literal beast with seven horns? Of course not, right? Does a symbol have to exist in reality? Clearly not since there is no literal beast with seven ahead and ten horns. So, a flying scroll doesn't exist in reality, but that doesn't mean it can't be used to symbolize something.

Since your last rave, in #39, people reading this thread will see how you use denigration and verbal abuse to promote your false beliefs.

Says the guy who has done that himself for many years. Look in the mirror, hypocrite.

My hope is for everyone to realize how close we are to the Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies. The terrible Day like: As it was in the days of Noah.... and the world will never be the same again.

You go about it the wrong way by focusing only on physical events, when persecution, deception, wickedness and apostasy are the things we are told to look for to tell us that the day of the Lord is near.

 

[Keraz]

It was from the Prophets that Israel formed their view. Their view fell short. Now a new and greater authority was amongst them and it was to him they were to listen.

Jesus did Prophesy, What He said expands and fills in the details of the ancient Prophets. Incl Paul and the Apostles.
I take careful note of it all; esp Revelation, which gives us a correct general sequence of things to happen in the end times.

Isaiah 65:20 states, 'No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days, or an old man fail to live out his years. For the youth will die at a hundred years, and he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed', while....
Revelation 21: 2-5 mirrors Isaiah 65:17-19 '

I asked for viable explanations. This fails that criteria, as Revelation 20 very plainly tells of a thousand year period to come before the new heavens and earth and Eternity.
Also the details given from Isaiah 65:18-25, are simply incompatible with Spiritual Eternity.

 

[Keraz]

You go about it the wrong way by focusing only on physical events, when persecution, deception, wickedness and apostasy are the things we are told to look for to tell us that the day of the Lord is near.

We surely do not need to look for sin and errors.
Prophecy is given to us for our information; to not make an effort to understand it all, is nothing short of sinfulness.

Throw your REBible in the trash because that's a terrible translation of the verse.

Tell that to the Wickliffe translators.
The Revised English Bible, Oxford Press, 1989, is the best Bible for accuracy and modern understanding. To reject it for its different wordings, is foolishness.

Symbols do not need to resemble what they symbolize in reality. You have no understanding of symbolism.

Much hot air, bereft of any idea of what that object represented.
No one before this modern age could have imagined Zechariah was seeing a rocket missile. But he was!

 

[Zao is life]

A reply without the usual aggro and flat rejections. Thanks!

Genetically; everyone alive today has some of Abrahams genes.
God has fulfilled His Promises - thru Moses and Jacob, to bless the exiled House of Israel. It is quite evident they are the Christian peoples of the Western nations.

That is so true.

I really like what you say there, because if you ask a Christian what the first promise and the second promise God made to Abraham was, MANY Christians will not be able to answer you, because they don't know - and even when they read it, it remains hidden to them.

Genesis 12:1-3:
"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

FIRST PROMISE

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive."
-- 1 Corinthians 15;22​

The apostle Paul said: "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, "and to the descendants," referring to many, but "and to your descendant," referring to one, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16).

The above promise in Genesis 12:2-3 was the very first promise that God made to Abraham, and this promise therefore forms the basis for:

(a) Any subsequent promise that God made to Abraham; and

(b) Anything that God later did in the life of Abraham and his descendants.

SECOND PROMISE

"As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For (the reason God changed his name to Abraham) I have made you a father of a multitude of gôyim, and I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you.". -- Genesis 17:3-6.

Notice how God repeated the above promise (Genesis 17:3-6) three times.

THE SEED OF ABRAHAM (JESUS OUR MESSIAH)

The seed of Abraham came through the seed of Isaac. So Paul says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Romans 3:1-3

Paul also said that to the Israelites "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." -- Romans 9:4-5.

But the above does not mean that God's purpose wasn't always that through Christ, who came though the Jews, who are of Israel, Abraham would become a father of a multitude of gôyim ((Gentiles/Gentile nations).

So because so many Christians do not even know what the second promise of God to Abraham was (and even if they do know it, it remains hidden from them because it seems to just pass over them),

and because so many Christians believe that the Jews are chosen by God to fulfill His purpose regarding Abraham becoming the father of many Gentile nations + the families of the earth being blessed (instead of Christ, the seed of Abraham, being chosen by God), I really like what you say, because it's 100% true:

Genetically; everyone alive today has some of Abrahams genes.
God has fulfilled His Promises - thru Moses and Jacob, to bless the exiled House of Israel. It is quite evident they are the Christian peoples of the Western nations.

I still don't agree with he rest of what you say regarding when the things you mention will be fulfilled though.

 

[quietthinker]

It asked for viable explanations. This fails that criteria, as Revelation 20 very plainly tells of a thousand year period to come before the new heavens and earth and Eternity.
Also the details given from Isaiah 65:18-25, are simply incompatible with Spiritual Eternity.

There yer go, as expected...you cannot hear.....instead, insist on forcing your paradigm into the text. It's a familiar story!

 

[Keraz]

I still don't agree with he rest of what you say regarding when the things you mention will be fulfilled though.

God gave the holy Land to Abraham: to his descendants, who are not identified by genetics, but by their faith in Jesus. Galatians 6:14-16
The whole area of the Holy Land still remains important to God and He will have what He always wanted; a people there, who are His Witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

They will be peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them there: Revelation 7:9
Which must take place before the events of Revelation 8 to 19:11

 

[Keraz]

There yer go, as expected...you cannot hear.....instead, insist on forcing your paradigm into the text. It's a familiar story!

I cannot hear or abide, any theory which says the thousand years, mentioned six times in Rev 20, is just symbolic.

The proof of a forthcoming Millennium, with King Jesus on earth, is in the 7000 year Plan of God for mankind. There has been nearly 6000 years since Adam, proved by 47 Bible verses giving us time periods that add to 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, then 2000 years Abraham to Jesus.
Now is the Church age of almost 2000 years, then comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus, Total - 7000 years from Creation to Completion.

 

[Zao is life]

God gave the holy Land to Abraham: to his descendants, who are not identified by genetics, but by their faith in Jesus. Galatians 6:14-16
The whole area of the Holy Land still remains important to God and He will have what He always wanted; a people there, who are His Witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

They will be peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them there: Revelation 7:9

Agreed.

Which must take place before the events of Revelation 8 to 19:11

Impossible.

 

[Keraz]

Impossible.

Not a word to use when the Plans and purposes of God are involved.
It is what many Prophesies tell us; will happen, as is plainly stated in Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 11:11-12, Psalms 35, +

Psalm 149:1-9 Sing to the Lord a new song, sing His praises in the assembly of His loyal servants. Let the people of Zion exult in their Maker and King. For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let the high praises of God be on their lips and a two edged sword in their hand to deal vengeance on the nations and punish the heathen, as is decreed upon them. This is glory for all who obey the Lord.
Every faithful Christian. His peoples in His Holy Land. Proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 12, the offspring of the 'woman', who represents the Israelites of God.

 

[Zao is life]

Not a word to use when the Plans and purposes of God are involved.
It is what many Prophesies tell us; will happen, as is plainly stated in Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 11:11-12, Psalms 35, +

Psalm 149:1-9 Sing to the Lord a new song, sing His praises in the assembly of His loyal servants. Let the people of Zion exult in their Maker and King. For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let the high praises of God be on their lips and a two edged sword in their hand to deal vengeance on the nations and punish the heathen, as is decreed upon them. This is glory for all who obey the Lord.

In the New Jerusalem (which I think you also said). But what you don't say is that that will be in the NHNE, following the resurrection of the dead who died in Christ. You say it's before that.

Revelation 15 The song of Moses
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Exodus 15 The song of Moses
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto Yhwh, and spake, saying, I will sing unto Yhwh, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 Yah is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
3 Yhwh is a man of war: Yhwh is his name.
4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his army hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6 Thy right hand, O Yhwh, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Yhwh, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11 Who is like unto thee, O Yhwh, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

Deuteronomy 32 The song of Moses
36 For Yhwh shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

 

[quietthinker]

I cannot hear or abide, any theory which says the thousand years, mentioned six times in Rev 20, is just symbolic.

The proof of a forthcoming Millennium, with King Jesus on earth, is in the 7000 year Plan of God for mankind. There has been nearly 6000 years since Adam, proved by 47 Bible verses giving us time periods that add to 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, then 2000 years Abraham to Jesus.
Now is the Church age of almost 2000 years, then comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus, Total - 7000 years from Creation to Completion.

You are spinning off in your head Keraz. I haven't mentioned or given an opinion on any of the matters you mention above.
I appears to me you are so locked into a tunnel vision which you think are great revelations from God, you cannot hear the other!

 

[Keraz]

In the New Jerusalem (which I think you also said). But what you don't say is that that will be in the NHNE, following the resurrection of the dead who died in Christ. You say it's before that.

The New Jerusalem and the resurrection of all the dead comes after the Millennium. Only the GT martyrs come back to life at the Return.
The occupation of all the holy Land by the Christian peoples, will happen soon after the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 66:15-21 gives the sequence.
Isaiah 62:1-5 describes the new nation.

Revelation 15 The song of Moses

Rev 15:1-4 is a scene in heaven. Wh1ch you omitted;- bad you!
They are the G.T. Christian martyrs, whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Victorious thru death.
They are allowed to cry out at times and Jesus will resurrect them - Rev 20:4

 

[Keraz]

I haven't mentioned or given an opinion on any of the matters you mention above.

Thats our difference, you haven't addressed any of the issues. Your MO is to whine and moan about everything that you disagree with.

My vision is to promote what the Prophets wrote. The content of about a quarter of the Bible. Can't you quietly think about the Four Stages of Mankind's Redemption?

 

[Zao is life]

The New Jerusalem and the resurrection of all the dead comes after the Millennium. Only the GT martyrs come back to life at the Return.
The occupation of all the holy Land by the Christian peoples, will happen soon after the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 66:15-21 gives the sequence.
Isaiah 62:1-5 describes the new nation.

Rev 15:1-4 is a scene in heaven. Wh1ch you omitted;- bad you!
They are the G.T. Christian martyrs, whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Victorious thru death.
They are allowed to cry out at times and Jesus will resurrect them - Rev 20:4

It describes a scene in the New Heavens and Earth following the judgment plagues having been poured out upon Egypt the beast. They will have been resurrected from the dead and there will be no more death. Until the second death when the rest of the dead are raised.

The Gog-Magog nations who get deceived by Satan are resurrected saints who believe the lie:

"You will NOT surely die"

Only God has life IN HIMSELF.

Ask Adam what's coming and he'll tell you - because he knows what happened, and why.