The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[marks]

You sure are definitely insisting it must fit into the theological framework men gave you.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 KJV
17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That’s no reason to judge unbelievers and thereby harm yourself.

Where did we get to judging others? Are you saying I'm doing that?

Again I have to wonder if you are mixing me up with someone else.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That’s no reason to judge unbelievers and thereby harm yourself.

But do you think differently? Or do you agree?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The law in the heart condemns. Everyone knows they do what is wrong.

Even the grammar there in Romans 2, it's accusing others while excusing themselves. This is not an alternate pathway to unity with God, and eternal life.

Much love!

If a man has been given less than you, just the law written on his heart, then less will be expected of him. Leave the judgement of him to God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where did we get to judging others? Are you saying I'm doing that?

Again I have to wonder if you are mixing me up with someone else.

Much love!

lol. It all ties together. His coat is seamless.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The law in the heart condemns. Everyone knows they do what is wrong.

Even the grammar there in Romans 2, it's accusing others while excusing themselves. This is not an alternate pathway to unity with God, and eternal life.

Much love!

There will be men accepted who had no idea who they gave a cup of water to, just helping by obeying the law written on their heart.

There will be men who get a prophets reward who aren’t prophets.

The woman who hid the men was passed over in the destruction.

 

[David H.]

Yep. You sure are definitely insisting it must fit into the theological framework men gave you.
God accepts men when they do the right thing.
Clinging to Him is the right thing to do. Babies cling to their mother and wrap their legs around her body.

If a nine year old still wants his mother to carry him that way, she won’t. She insists he walk. When he’s capable of more, more is expected.

If you just trust God and continue to trust Him, He will grow you. You don’t have to reject anything just because it feels like it doesn’t fit into the theological construct a man taught you.

We are all on the same journey to sainthood, all believers. God just chooses who will be used as that saintly sacrifice. Forgiveness is one of those things we grow in just like Love. we are vessels that God fills and then we extend that Love mercy, or forgiveness to others around us. When we cannot take credit for our love and mercy with this understanding we do not slip into legalism.

God is the faucet pouring his love and forgiveness and mercy into us, we are not to bottle that up but let them flow through us to others.
This is the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-10, as well as the parable of the unforgiving servant.

 

[marks]

It’s great peace but I wonder what is next. I don’t know. Can anyone tell me?

If it is of the LORD, then you will be growing love and joy and peace and all the rest . . .

Galatians 5:22-25 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The law in the heart condemns. Everyone knows they do what is wrong.

You don’t know other men’s hearts. Maybe a man does the right thing by the law written in his heart a

Much love!

If it is of the LORD, then you will be growing love and joy and peace and all the rest . . .

Galatians 5:22-25 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

I guess that’s it then. Just be a tree!

 

[Enoch111]

I just know I do not do angry murder, grudging and resentment any more and my passions don’t rule over me and leap up unruly. I love people and have compassion for them, even when they are awful to me because I know they are controlled and not free because I also lived that way and couldn’t fix it either. I appear to be dead to me. I am not aware of any sin inside any more, when before, I saw it in me, it was who I WAS, and I hated my life.

That's excellent and it is called walking in the Spirit. Keep at it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For this Post, I want both sides of this debate to be open minded to the fact that men are prone to error, even good men led by God. I will keep this brief and elaborate more if need be.

A Brief History of the Problem:
With the reformation a number of doctrines of the Catholic church were re-evaluated and reformed based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. One of these was the prayers and veneration of the saints, a concept which no true saint wants in their life nor in their death but instead would rather all Glory Go to the Lamb that was slain and His blood that transforms and cleanses us. For example, scripture tells us to pray FOR the saints, not pray TO the saints. This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1). In so doing Protestantism deemed all believers as saints and from this doctrine alone comes the division of Calvinism and Arminianism.

What is the difference between the faithful and the saints?
The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

Why this solves the Problem:
If salvation is by freewill to whosoever believeth, then the Arminian is correct, but if those believers being chosen by God to be saints is correct then the Calvinist is also right, but each is wrong in applying their view on the other group, saying salvation is by predestination as the Calvinist do, or that becoming a saint is by free will as the Armenians do. Thus, the problem is failing to distinguish between the faithful and the saints in these churches.

@David H. Getting back on track. I do have something to say that has bothered me about “freewill.” And it sort of ties in to the verse the first responder to you gave, you did not choose Me, I chose you.

No man can use something called “freewill” unless his blindness is first healed. After his blindness is healed and he can see God exists, does he use something called freewill or does he just sort of go the only way he can now see there is to go? (Where would we go Lord? You have the words of eternal life.) I think it’s important to the continuation and growth of the mans humility that he doesn’t beat up blind men as if he himself just chose to see and believe and they choose not to. I chose you, you did not choose Me is pretty important to not forget. Extreme lack of humility can, and has, ensued in modern Christianity over this “freewill” theological framework that men are indoctrinated into.

A man will always freely choose to do the thing that will save his hide, won’t he? Unless he can’t see and hear.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But where I see a sort of freewill really come in is in some of the choosing he chooses AFTER his hide has been saved.

I think there is leaven woven into our whole framework in places. It hurts men rather than helping them.

 

[marks]

After his blindness is healed and he can see God exists, does he use something called freewill or does he just sort of go the only way he can now see there is to go?

Romans 1:18-23 KJV
18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

A man will always freely choose to do the thing that will save his hide, won’t he?

Not in my experience, no.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not in my experience, no.

Much love!

That wasn’t my whole statement you quoted. You carefully removed the next few words I said. Lol.
In your experience, men who see a danger to life and limb will jump into it rather than away from it?

 

[marks]

That wasn’t my whole statement.
In your experience, men who see a danger to life and limb will jump into it rather than away from it?

The addict shoots his drug, knowingly not giving heed to his safety, but unable to make a better choice, or so he thinks. And there are many things like that.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The addict shoots his drug, not giving heed to his safety. And there are many things like that.

Much love!

Yes, well we weren’t talking about him.

 

[marks]

That wasn’t my whole statement you quoted. You carefully removed the next few words I said. Lol.
In your experience, men who see a danger to life and limb will jump into it rather than away from it?

People will curse God in heaven for sending the plagues.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sigh…

 

[marks]

Yes, well we weren’t talking about him.

Perhaps you would clarify then of whom you speak.

Much love!