The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[brightfame52]

Here.......

Yeah I said that, but you failed to show a quote where i said the other.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Its all in your imagination. Faith gives assurance, the assurance of faith Heb 10:22

So the demons have assurance too? Assurance of what?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul said what he said about the scriptures, 2 Tim 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scripture includes, the law, the prophets, the psalms

Then why does the church say the law is worthless and should be discarded because it was only good for leading you to salvation in Christ?

 

[brightfame52]

So the demons have assurance too? Assurance of what?

I dont know what you talking about, i have not mentioned demons, you brought them up. Im only talking about people Christ died for. Do you believe Christ died for demons ? I dont

 

[brightfame52]

Then why does the church say the law is worthless and should be discarded because it was only good for leading you to salvation in Christ?

Dont question me about others beliefs, Im not here to testify about what others say

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I dont know what you talking about, i have not mentioned demons, you brought them up. Im only talking about people Christ died for. Do you believe Christ died for demons ? I dont

I think the biggest problem with talking to Christians is they don't read the Bible. You obviously haven't read James 2 with your eyes open. You read the words but your mind is checked out and you can't see what you're reading.

James 2:18-19
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Does the faith demons have give them the assurance of justification as you claim faith does? They know that Jesus is real. They know the gospel is real. Does their faith give them assurance of their justification? No, of course not. Only works would do that. Just as the Bible says.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I see you still don't know what James means when he says a man is justified by works too and not by faith alone.

Sure I do. This is defined in Romans 4:2. If Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory, but not before God.

In other words, his justification by works is before man; not before God.

No, being justified by what you do, and not by faith alone means being shown that you are righteous (justified) by what you do and not just being justified (made righteous) by faith. It has nothing to do with who sees that you are righteous. The point is you must be justified (shown to be righteous) by what you do as well as justified (made righteous) by what you believe to be saved. The faith that makes you righteous has to be seen in what you do or you have a faith that can not save you. The church does not believe James 2.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Being justified means being legally viewed as having no unrighteousness.

Why then does it say that the Lord "justifieth the ungodly" (Romans 4:5)?

Because it is the ungodly that need to be justified (made righteous). And that happens when the ungodly person places their faith in the blood of Christ to forgive and wipe away their sin guilt. That's what it means to be justified (made righteous) by faith. Being justified by works in James 2:24 means your works show you to be the righteous person you have become through your faith in Christ. James says you must be justified both ways, by faith and works, in order to be saved. Because the person who can't demonstrate the righteousness he has in Christ by faith doesn't have righteousness in Christ by faith. But the church says that is not true. They do not believe James. The church says you do not have to be justified by faith and works to be saved. They say dead faith does save.

 

[brightfame52]

I think the biggest problem with talking to Christians is they don't read the Bible. You obviously haven't read James 2 with your eyes open. You read the words but your mind is checked out and you can't see what you're reading.

James 2:18-19
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Does the faith demons have give them the assurance of justification as you claim faith does? They know that Jesus is real. They know the gospel is real. Does their faith give them assurance of their justification? No, of course not. Only works would do that. Just as the Bible says.

Insults now. You the only one who reads the bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Because it is the ungodly that need to be justified (made righteous). And that happens when the ungodly person places their faith in the blood of Christ to forgive and wipe away their sin guilt. That's what it means to be justified (made righteous) by faith. Being justified by works in James 2:24 means your works show you to be the righteous person you have become through your faith in Christ. James says you must be justified both ways, by faith and works, in order to be saved. Because the person who can't demonstrate the righteousness he has in Christ by faith doesn't have righteousness in Christ by faith. But the church says that is not true. They do not believe James.

They are Justified while ungodly. Thats Grace !

 

[Ferris Bueller]

They are Justified while ungodly. Thats Grace !

That is indeed what grace is. They did no righteous works to earn justification.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Insults now. You the only one who reads the bible.

How did you know nothing about demons having faith all this time that we've been discussing the verses in James that talks about the faith of demons? I can only conclude you can't see it right there in front of your nose. I don't mean to be insulting, but if you're offended that you didn't even know that was right in the verses we've been discussing that's on you, not me. And I'm not going to apologize for being able to see it.

 

[Heyzeus]

I do what God ordered me to do.....I follow Paul as he follows Christ.....

Luther’s commentaries on Romans and Galatians restored the Lost Messages Of
Paul to the Church.....they are inspired and brilliant .His later commentaries were clearly “ off the rails” and I ignore them...just like I do you, most of the time....

I really like Romans as well .. Luther on the other hand .. not so much. I began this journey as a Lutheran .. of the 3 major denominations in Christianity .. I prefer Eastern Orthodox .. as I think would Paul - since these after all -are his original followers.

Sola Fide is flawed doctrine in my mind - and Catholic/Orthodox concur ... Not that I care about Catholic .. but Orthodox notice was not guilty of the same sins. And also notice that they were the last to give up subordinantism .. and still do not accept the full Catholic Version of the Trinity .. aka Filioque.

 

[brightfame52]

How did you know nothing about demons having faith all this time that we've been discussing the verses in James that talks about the faith of demons? I can only conclude you can't see it right there in front of your nose. I don't mean to be insulting, but if you're offended that you didn't even know that was right in the verses we've been discussing that's on you, not me. And I'm not going to apologize for being able to see it.

Im not discussing demons. Im speaking about people Christ died for. Do you believe Christ died for demons ?

 

[ChristisGod]

I really like Romans as well .. Luther on the other hand .. not so much. I began this journey as a Lutheran .. of the 3 major denominations in Christianity .. I prefer Eastern Orthodox .. as I think would Paul - since these after all -are his original followers.

Sola Fide is flawed doctrine in my mind - and Catholic/Orthodox concur ... Not that I care about Catholic .. but Orthodox notice was not guilty of the same sins. And also notice that they were the last to give up subordinantism .. and still do not accept the full Catholic Version of the Trinity .. aka Filioque.

Paul wasn't one of the 12 so much for romans. So much for luther eh

James was next..................................

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Im not discussing demons. Im speaking about people Christ died for. Do you believe Christ died for demons ?

No, I don't believe that. The point is, you didn't realize that you saying that having faith is what gives you assurance that you are justified/saved means the demons who believe have assurance that they are justified/saved. I showed you the Bible says your works give you the assurance of your salvation. You said that's not true. I'm going with the Bible on this one. So should you.

 

[Heyzeus]

Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you-

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you-

Ye have heard that it hath been said...But I say unto you

OK .. good start .. but what about Matt7:21 what is "The Will of the Father" - you have one thing ... but there are many others.
If you did however one one verse that sums the whole thing up... Matt 7:12

 

[justbyfaith]

When you make believing a condition of the application of justification/salvation then you make it a work.

Nope.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

How can this be and also your statement be true since we are not justified by works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6)?

Yeah thats fine as long as you understand that believing there is the fruit of the Spirit. Its when people make believing a product from the mind of the natural man, to make it a condition to Justification, that it becomes a work salvation issue !

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

Are you saying that we can have the fruit of the Spirit (faith) before we have grace?

Because we obviously enter into this grace by utilizing our faith, according to Romans 5:2.

So then, if faith is only a fruit of the Spirit, then we must have the Holy Spirit before we can have access into grace.

I am of the opinion that we receive the Holy Spirit as the result of being recipients of the grace of our Lord.

Yes, he was justified by his faith way before the sacrificing of Isaac (Genesis 15:6). Then he was justified by what he did when he sacrificed Isaac on the altar (Genesis 22:12).

God imputed righteousness to Abraham apart from Abraham being willing to offer his son in Genesis 15:6, would you agree?

When you tell people they don't have to keep the law because salvation is not by works you're deceiving them by not telling them that not keeping the law shows you are not saved.

The Bible teaches that we are not justified by the works of the law (Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16). How then is it deception to proclaim what the Bible teaches?

I most assuredly teach that law-keeping is the sure result of real salvation (more accurately, that love is the sure result of salvation; and that love is the fulfilling of the law): but it would be taking it too far to say that keeping the law is necessary for salvation. If that were the case then we are justified by the law: a concept that is contrary to holy scripture.

He said faith that is alone can not save you.

Faith apart from works is indeed salvational.

I prefer Eastern Orthodox .. as I think would Paul - since these after all -are his original followers.

Paul was forbidden to preach at Bythinia...which was in the eastern section of Europe...while he was told to go to Macedonia...which was in the west.

 

[Heyzeus]

Works before Faith I believe are dead works and having nothing to do with Salvation. The Blood of Christ purifies His People from dead works Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

My point the ones Christ died for are eternally secure before faith, because counts them righteous from the womb, even though they are in themselves His enemies.

You are repeating yourself .. Sola Fide is flawed doctrine .. for numerous reasons .. which is why this doctrine is not accepted by either Orthodox or Catholic (I care not about Catholic but they do not accept this doctrine either) Who is the Church of Paul ? If you answered Eastern Orthodox .. you would be correct .. who managed to avoid the sins of the Church during the 1000 years of Horror when these nut jobs got power .. Again EO you would be correct.

Who does not accept certain aspects of the Catholic Trinity Doctrine .. correct

So you tell me .. what's going on here .. If "Sola Fide" is so great .. why does the Church of Paul not accept this doctrine .. and citing one passage from Hebrews .. that does not even address the issue..

Unless you know a whole lot about Jewish Christian Sect Colloquialisms -- and I am talking the Church of Jerusalem - do you know to understand what Paul could possibly mean by "Dead Works" .. does this refer to all works .. or is there more to this story than some vauge diction that you hope might support Martins Man Made Doctrine ... a quite unsavory fellow he was .. not a follower of Christ.

Your support for claim just doesn't cut it .. Stack this one vague passage up ... against the huge number of Passages where Jesus (not Paul) conflicts with Sola Fide We have a whole Sermon on the issue Matt 5-7 What is the Will of the Father .. and no .. you are not allowed to go outside this Sermon.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To @Ferris Bueller.