The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Good grief BOL.
Yes we have discussed in length...

MY Lord Jesus came down from Heaven in the LIKENESS as a man, seen as a man, called a man, AS Verified IN Scripture.
I Believe and Repeat what Scripture has revealed.

Your Lord Jesus IS A HUMAN MAN, created VIA God fertilizing Mary's Egg, with NO Verification IN Scripture.
You Believe and Repeat what "your Church has established as It's Doctrine'"...( out of the minds and words of men, NOT IN Scripture ).

The BASIC Tenet of Christianity IS:
To Follow Jesus, Believe He is the Christ sent from God in Heaven and submit ones own LIFE "TO HIM".

The BASIC Tenet of Christianity IS..."NOT" making one subject to the "catholic church".

Learn the Difference!

Glory to God,
Taken

There is only ONE kind of man - the human kind.
Your nonsense is flat-out heresy . . .

 

[reformed1689]

@David Taylor
Arianism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Catharism and Albigensianism all went by "Scripture Alone". The reason why you are so ignorant of church history is because it is embarrassing.

I think it is time to put you on ignore, it is the most charitable thing to do for a forum masochist who is addicted to be proven wrong.

Humorous that you think you have proven me wrong ever. By the way, someone claiming to use Scripture alone and misinterpreting Scripture doesn't negate the idea of Scripture Alone. Nor does that have ANYTHING to do with my knowledge of church history. This is all a Red Herring.

 

[reformed1689]

Another meaningless assertion with no visible rebuttals, no evidence, no documentation, and no references to official church teaching. You demand scripture, scripture, scripture, and when you are given scripture, scripture, scripture, you hide behind a wall of "false exegesis", but never give your opinion of true exegesis. What a phony.

Yes, you gave scripture WITHOUT context.

 

[reformed1689]

We don't ignore Paul passing his authority to Timothy and Titus. Thus we don't deny apostolic succession, which is indicated all over the NT. Sola scriptura is not indicated, or even inferred anywhere. You still haven't proven Tradition and the Magisterium is not needed for the rule of faith, because it's impossible.

So now Titus and Timothy have Apostolic succession?

her·e·sy | \ ˈher-ə-sē , ˈhe-rə-\
Definition of heresy
1a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards.
Merriam/Webster's dictionary.
This describes sola scriptura.

Yeah, you picked the definition that most fit your purposes and ignored all of the others.

You must live in a cozy isolated world oblivious to daily news.

No, I don't live in a brainwashing church.

 

[Taken]

As for Mary’s Immaculate Conception - I’ve already established the argument supporting this – about FIFTY posts ago. YOU are the one who has been dodging it ever since.

.

The only thing you have Established to ad nauseam is your BELIEF and it comes FROM Oral Tradition of "men who called themselves Catholic".

So? I am not subject to the ORAL teaching of some men who have historically made outrageous claims and it has become a "TRADITION" with people who Believe what they claimed, WITHOUT a Scriptural Basis.

The TERM Catholic DID NOT COME From Scripture OR was it a WORD used by the Disciples, NOR can you Point to ANY Scriptures WHEREBY such "supposed" Tradition of Christ's Disciples SAID or TAUGHT any such thing about Mary being NATURALLY BORN "SINLESS".

If that was SUCH A HIGHLIGHT, as YOUR Catholic Traditions "TRY" to make it out to BE....WHY did Jesus' chosen Disciples, who Learned from Jesus, Teach or the Scribes WRITE About her "supposedly" being SINLESS, at HER birth?

Are you ever going to address her status as “Kecharitomene” – or are you going to continue to run and hide and deflect??

LOL....already did. You claim that is "Mary's" Title. So? You call her Kecharitomene Mary, I don't have to.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Dude why do you think you are educating me IN JEWISH Tradition? You;re not. It's IN Scripture!! I am Aquainted with Scripture! Not news!

Traditions are NOT exclusive to ORAL SPEECH!

Traditions are PRACTICES Learned, though, Speech, Hearing, Seeing & or Writings.

Your first example...



Matt 2:23 "called a Nazarene"
[23] And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Matt 2:23 "spoken by the prophets".
[23] And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which [ was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

SPOKEN and WRITTEN in OT Scripture;

Mic 1:
[1] The word of the LORD that came to Micah ...

Mic 5:2
[2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

It should not be necessary to mention (but I believe you lack understanding)....it was SCRIBES who "wrote" as the Prophets Spoke.

It was "recorders" who transcribed and assembled the "writings" into Scrolls.

It was ORAL and WRITTEN "TRADITION" that was taught in the OT....
"THAT" the Ruler of Israel would Come forth out of "JUDAH"...

AND HE DID!

And just as it says IN Micah, (the written word) came to pass.

Do you need to be TOLD...Bethlehem is in Judah, where Jesus was FIRST revealed. And Mary and Joseph were from Nazareth, and Jesus' boyhood residence?
Glory to God,
Taken

Pretty pathetic – even coming from YOU.

As I educated you in my last post – NOWHERE does the OT state, “He shall be called a Nazarene”.
This was ORAL TRADITION.
EVERY example I gave you was ORAL Tradition and NOT written in the OT Scriptures.

The “Traditions” that Paul spoke of in 2 Thess 2:15 were regarding ORAL Teachings. – NOT practices or festivals or special days.
He even says so . . .

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER BY an ORAL STATEMENT OR BY a LETTER from us."

Read that and weep.
You have LOST this argument because you don’t use your head or do your homework . . .

 

[reformed1689]

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER BY an ORAL STATEMENT OR BY a LETTER from us."

Yeah, and it says the ones taught by THEM. Not future ones taught by others.

 

[Taken]

There is only ONE kind of man - the human kind.

Wrong again.

God established "KINDS" of things.
God established "FROM" WHERE those "KINDS" of things "CAME".
REPRODUCED "KINDS" of things "Come FROM" SEEDS, After IT OWN KIND of thing.

Gen 1
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind , and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

TEE HEE...And GOD SAID: Let us make man "AFTER OUR KIND".....LOL....NO!

Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

"OUR IMAGE"...."OUR LIKENESS"...

"KIND" ?...no, image and likeness, and even that LASTED only a short while...since Adam's own offspring became After Adams "CORRUPT" image and likeness.

(Unless of course you are Catholic and Believe the nonsense that Mary was naturally born SINLESS, "after Gods KIND".) <--- LOL

ONLY God IS Sinless!
And God DOES not MATE with his created Humans, fertilize a Humans Seed/Egg and Reproduce offspring. Ha!

God plants His SEED in a Persons "NEW" Heart, and Births a Person a NEW SPIRIT!

"Hello. The Womb of a woman, is not the same thing as a Heart! "

And God DID NOT Require the Egg of a woman, to "PUT" His SEED in Marys Womb!

Your nonsense is flat-out heresy . .

Heresy: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church.

So? I'm not a Catholic! Nor does Christ's Church Teach Mary was SINLESS from her Natural Birth, or that God Fertilized Marys Egg in her Womb!

You should try READING what the Jewish Messiah taught Jewish men and sent them to Teach, instead of listening to your Catholic fathers.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Pretty pathetic – even coming from YOU.

As I educated you in my last post – NOWHERE does the OT state, “He shall be called a Nazarene”.

I think you work hard at being dense.

The OT written word says He would come out of Judah...

Duh, Bethlehem is in Judah!
Nazareth is in Judah!
Jerusalem is in Judah!

The OLD Testament hadn't been Written WHEN "they" began Teaching.

After the OT was WRITTEN, it was from the Written Word, that man taught.

The NEW Testament Being Spoken by the Apostles hadn't been written when they were TEACHING....DUH!

After the NT was WRITTEN, it was from the Written Word, that men taught....

And INTRODUCING...GENTILE men who gained positions in the Church, (that Jewish men Started, and began dying off), and called themselves Catholics, and Began making THEIR OWN Doctrines, and Beliefs, and Truths, that became the Catholic churches "TRADITIONS".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong again.

God established "KINDS" of things.
God established "FROM" WHERE those "KINDS" of things "CAME".
REPRODUCED "KINDS" of things "Come FROM" SEEDS, After IT OWN KIND of thing.

Gen 1
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind , and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

TEE HEE...And GOD SAID: Let us make man "AFTER OUR KIND".....LOL....NO!

Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

"OUR IMAGE"...."OUR LIKENESS"...

"KIND" ?...no, image and likeness, and even that LASTED only a short while...since Adam's own offspring became After Adams "CORRUPT" image and likeness.

(Unless of course you are Catholic and Believe the nonsense that Mary was naturally born SINLESS, "after Gods KIND".) <--- LOL

ONLY God IS Sinless!
And God DOES not MATE with his created Humans, fertilize a Humans Seed/Egg and Reproduce offspring. Ha!

God plants His SEED in a Persons "NEW" Heart, and Births a Person a NEW SPIRIT!

"Hello. The Womb of a woman, is not the same thing as a Heart! "

And God DID NOT Require the Egg of a woman, to "PUT" His SEED in Marys Womb!




Heresy: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church.

So? I'm not a Catholic! Nor does Christ's Church Teach Mary was SINLESS from her Natural Birth, or that God Fertilized Marys Egg in her Womb!

You should try READING what the Jewish Messiah taught Jewish men and sent them to Teach, instead of listening to your Catholic fathers.

Glory to God,
Taken

And NOWHERE do these verses imply that God is a “kind” of Man because there is only ONE kind of Man – the Human kind.
He wasn’t manifested as a human being until the NT.

The fact that Jesus was manifext as a human being IS a revealed truth. It was only LATER that rebellious men like the Docetist Heretics denied His humanity – just like YOU.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I think you work hard at being dense.

The OT written word says He would come out of Judah...

Duh, Bethlehem is in Judah!
Nazareth is in Judah!
Jerusalem is in Judah!

The OLD Testament hadn't been Written WHEN "they" began Teaching.

After the OT was WRITTEN, it was from the Written Word, that man taught.

The NEW Testament Being Spoken by the Apostles hadn't been written when they were TEACHING....DUH!

After the NT was WRITTEN, it was from the Written Word, that men taught....

And INTRODUCING...GENTILE men who gained positions in the Church, (that Jewish men Started, and began dying off), and called themselves Catholics, and Began making THEIR OWN Doctrines, and Beliefs, and Truths, that became the Catholic churches "TRADITIONS".

Glory to God,
Taken

What a pathetic argument.

“He shall be called a Nazarene” is a QUOTE – NOT some obscure reference to a Region that contained a Sub-Region that just happened to include the small hamlet of Nazareth.

It’s a QUOTE, Einstein.
Learn the difference . . .

 

[Berserk]

The church only has authority when it is faithful to the Scriptures.

Just the opposite! The Scriptures only have authority when they are faithful to church doctrine. How so? Because the Church (not the NT docments) gets her authority from Christ and because it is the Church that decided on the basis of Church doctrine which documents would and would not be considered Scripture! None of our 4 Gospels claim divine inspiration. Rather, we credit them with divine inspiration because we believe the Church was divinely inspired to select them as Scripture. ! Clement claims to be divinely inspired and Hebrews does not. The NT church (at Corinth) accepted 1 Clement as authoritative, but over time the Catholic Church rejected this claim and accepted Hebrews as canonical. We agree with this decision to accept Hebrews and reject 1 Clement because we believe the Spirit guided the Catholic church in her selection of canonical books. Evangelicals unwittingly act as if the Holy Spirit abandoned the Church after the apostolic age and returned to the Church only after the Reformation. So sad!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, and it says the ones taught by THEM. Not future ones taught by others.

WRONG.
He said it was the Traditions taught by the LEADERS of the Church.
There is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15.

Anyway - the Canon of the NT that YOU follow is a Tradition of the Catholic Church . . .

 

[reformed1689]

WRONG.
He said it was the Traditions taught by the LEADERS of the Church.
There is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15.

Anyway - the Canon of the NT that YOU follow is a Tradition of the Catholic Church . . .

This is poor interpretation at its finest. The US in 2 Thes. 2:15 are the authors which are Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It is not talking about future church leaders and it is ridiculous to say it is talking about such.

 

[reformed1689]

Just the opposite! The Scriptures only have authority when they are faithful to church doctrine

This is just a stupid comment.

 

[Taken]

And NOWHERE do these verses imply that God is a “kind” of Man because there is only ONE kind of Man – the Human kind.
He wasn’t manifested as a human being until the NT.

The fact that Jesus was manifext as a human being IS a revealed truth. It was only LATER that rebellious men like the Docetist Heretics denied His humanity – just like YOU.

I do not deny Jesus came to earth IN THE LIKENESS AS A MAN, just as Scripture Says.

YOU EXPAND the Scripture TO Ridiculous length...making the TRUTH, A LIE.

Making God fertilizing Mary's egg.
Making God a HUMAN.
Making God the Creator of Himself!
Making God the Same KIND of thing, He created OUT of dust of the Earth, He Created.

How Ridiculous, that God WHO IS without Beginning, Created Himself!

Apparently you are UNAWARE:
God IS SPIRIT.
God does NOT CHANGE.
Spirits CAN "APPEAR" "AS" a human man.
Angels are SPIRIT.
Angels CAN "APPEAR" "AS" a human man.

When a HUMAN MAN, SEES what "APPEARS" "AS" a HUMAN MAN...they uh, duh, call him a man...

I suppose you think little kids who dress up for halloween in the Likeness as a TIGER "ARE" A Tiger... LOL

And what does your DEFLECTION have to do with you being UNABLE to show one Scripture that says Mary was naturally born sinless?

LOL...nothing! Just your usual deflection when your Catholic Teaching is not based in Scripture.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is poor interpretation at its finest. The US in 2 Thes. 2:15 are the authors which are Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. It is not talking about future church leaders and it is ridiculous to say it is talking about such.

Rubbish.

2 Thess. 2:15 isn't the only place where Traditions are spoken of - and it's NOT the only community to which He talked about them:

2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have HEARD FROM ME before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also".

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the TRADITIONS even as I have delivered them to you".

2 Tim. 1:12-14
On this account I am suffering these things; but I am not ashamed, for I know him in whom I have believed and am confident that he is able to guard what has been entrusted to me until that day.
Take as your norm the sound words that you GEARD FROM ME, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.

This shows that Paul was preaching about Sacred Tradition everywhere He went because it was the NORMATIVE way of teaching among the leaders of the Church. They didn't have Bibles. there was NO completed New Testament.

Besides - their leadership was successive. If it weren't - they wouldn't have gone around ordaining Bishops wherever they went.
They ALSO wouldn't have chosen a successor for Judas. They would have simply chalked it up to a loss and moved in - but they didn't.

Acts 1:20 says, "may another take his OFFICE.

The Greek word used here is "EPISKOPAY", which means BISHOPRIC.
YOUR vision of the NT Church is a bizarre fantasy with zero basis in reality . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not deny Jesus came to earth IN THE LIKENESS AS A MAN, just as Scripture Says.
YOU EXPAND the Scripture TO Ridiculous length...making the TRUTH, A LIE.

Making God fertilizing Mary's egg.
Making God a HUMAN.
Making God the Creator of Himself!
Making God the Same KIND of thing, He created OUT of dust of the Earth, He Created.
How Ridiculous, that God WHO IS without Beginning, Created Himself!

Apparently you are UNAWARE:
God IS SPIRIT.
God does NOT CHANGE.
Spirits CAN "APPEAR" "AS" a human man.
Angels are SPIRIT.
Angels CAN "APPEAR" "AS" a human man.

When a HUMAN MAN, SEES what "APPEARS" "AS" a HUMAN MAN...they uh, duh, call him a man...

I suppose you think little kids who dress up for halloween in the Likeness as a TIGER "ARE" A Tiger... LOL

And what does your DEFLECTION have to do with you being UNABLE to show one Scripture that says Mary was naturally born sinless?

LOL...nothing! Just your usually deflection when your Catholic Teaching is not based in Scripture.

Glory to God,
Taken

And therein lies your Docetist Heresy for everybody here to see.

Where are all of your non-Catholic friends??
Where are all of the people who usually side with you when you are attacking the Catholic Church??
They have abandoned you on this point because they know you are preaching heresy . . .

To state that Jesus was merely a spirit masquerading as a human is not only heresy - it's idiotic.

 

[reformed1689]

Rubbish.

2 Thess. 2:15 isn't the only place where Traditions are spoken of - and it's NOT the only community to which He talked about them:

2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have HEARD FROM ME before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also".

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the TRADITIONS even as I have delivered them to you".

2 Tim. 1:12-14
On this account I am suffering these things; but I am not ashamed, for I know him in whom I have believed and am confident that he is able to guard what has been entrusted to me until that day.
Take as your norm the sound words that you GEARD FROM ME, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.

This shows that Paul was preaching about Sacred Tradition everywhere He went because it was the NORMATIVE way of teaching among the leaders of the Church. They didn't have Bibles. there was NO completed New Testament.

Besides - their leadership was successive. If it weren't - they wouldn't have gone around ordaining Bishops wherever they went.
They ALSO wouldn't have chosen a successor for Judas. They would have simply chalked it up to a loss and moved in - but they didn't.

Acts 1:20 says, "may another take his OFFICE.

The Greek word used here is "EPISKOPAY", which means BISHOPRIC.
YOUR vision of the NT Church is a bizarre fantasy with zero basis in reality . . .

Again you are using eisigeses. You are reading into the passage. It does not say, whatever they (future) tell you. It says what they have received from HIM. In other words, they were not allowed to teach anything different. IN FACT, if they did teach something different they were to be rejected.

Galatians 1:8
2 Tim. 4:3-4
1 Timothy 6
2 Cor. 11:12-15

 

[reformed1689]

Again you are using eisigeses. You are reading into the passage. It does not say, whatever they (future) tell you. It says what they have received from HIM. In other words, they were not allowed to teach anything different. IN FACT, if they did teach something different they were to be rejected.

Galatians 1:8
2 Tim. 4:3-4
1 Timothy 6
2 Cor. 11:12-15

By the way @BreadOfLife and @epostle these are all verses verifying sola scriptura.