The curious case of John 5:4

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, I've seen what they have to do to Matthew 1:25 to get it to align with their official theology....

The general problem goes into the folder labeled, "Questioning claims to authority", and the ex-Catholics I've heard from just had different sources of authority to question.

Yeah. Matthew 1:25 is problematic for their theology.
There's a new version of a Catholic commentary bible that has actually changed the wording of Matthew 1:25 - at least in the Italian version.
I tried to get it online but cannot find it. I've seen it myself, a friend works in a Catholic book store here in my town. Sorry, can't remember the wording enough to state it.

I did find what the Conference of Bishops states:

* [1:25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

source: Matthew, CHAPTER 1


This is rather interesting.
The Italian bibles I use also use the word UNTIL to mean a time frame.
Difficult to get away from....

 

[GodsGrace]

Big time. When Gene Robinson, who is openly gay, became Bishop here in New Hampshire, many left the Episcopal Church.

TheAnglican church in England is having the same problem...
This minister was removed from his parish...

 

[Johann]

St. SteVen said:
"Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?"

We were saved by grace through faith then, not saved by grace through certainty.

[

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Can Christians know they are saved (cf. 1 John 5:13)?

1 John has three tests or evidences.
Doctrinal (belief, 1 John 1:1,5,10; 2:18-25; 4:1-6,14-16; 5:11-12)
Lifestyle (obedience, 1 John 2:2-3; 2:3-6; 3:1-10; 5:18)
Social (love, 1 John 1:2-3; 2:7-11; 3:11-18; 4:7-12, 16-21)

Assurance is difficult because
often believers seek certain experiences not promised in the Bible
often believers do not fully understand the gospel
often believers continue to willfully sin (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 9:27; 1 Tim. 1:19-20; 2 Tim. 4:10; 2 Pet. 1:8-11)
certain personality types (i.e., perfectionists) can never accept God's unconditional acceptance and love
in the Bible there are examples of false professions (cf. Matt. 13:3-23; 7:21-23; Mark 4:14-20; 2 Pet. 2:19-20; 1 John 2:18-19, see SPECIAL TOPIC: Apostasy)

Believers' primary assurance is linked to the character of the Triune God
God the Father's love (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Characteristics of Israel's God [OT])
John 3:16; 10:28-29
Romans 8:31-39
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
Philippians 1:6
1 Peter 1:3-5
1 John 4:7-21
God the Son's actions
death on our behalf (i.e., Isaiah 53)
 (1) Mark 10:45
 (2) Acts 2:23
 (3) Romans 5:6-11
 (4) 2 Corinthians 5:21
 (5) Heb. 9:28
 (6) John 2:2; 4:9-10
high priestly prayer (John 17:12)
continuing intercession
 (1) Romans 8:34
 (2) Hebrews 7:25; 9:24
 (3) 1 John 2:1
God the Spirit's ministry
calling (John 6:44,65)
advocate ‒ John 14:16; 16:7
teacher ‒ John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:27
intercessing, Rom. 8:26-27
sealing
 (1) 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5
 (2) Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:3
assuring internal witness
 (1) Jphn 15:26
 (2) Romans 8:16-17
 (3) 1 John 5:7-13
But humans must respond to God's covenant offer (both initially and continually)
believers must turn from sin (repentance, cf. Mark 1:4; SPECIAL TOPIC: Repentance [NT]) and to God through Jesus (faith)
Mark 1:15
Acts 3:16,19; 20:21; 26:20
believers must receive God's offer in Christ (see SPECIAL TOPIC: What Does It Mean to "receive," "believe," "confess/profess," "call upon"?)
John 1:12; 3:16
Romans 5:1 (and by analogy 10:9-13)
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
believers must continue in the faith (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Perseverance)
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
remembering that the goal of salvation is Christlikeness
Romans 8:28-29
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 4:19
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10; 4:13
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:3; 5:23
Titus 2:14
1 Peter 1:15
Assurance has become a denominational issue
John Calvin based assurance on God's election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE

Assurance -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.

Seriously?

[

 

[Johann]

Seriously?

[

In my view, it seems like age might be affecting your reading comprehension and cognitive sharpness.

John Calvin based assurance on God's election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

J.

 

[Lambano]

I did find what the Conference of Bishops states:

* [1:25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

source: Matthew, CHAPTER 1


This is rather interesting.
The Italian bibles I use also use the word UNTIL to mean a time frame.
Difficult to get away from....

Ah, what the hell. We've already trashed Matthias's thread.

I find myself differing from the Conference of Bishops. The choice of Jesus's birth as the terminus of the "UNTIL" time frame (rather than, say, Mary's physical death) STRONGLY implies normal marital conduct afterwards. That's just how humans use language. At least, that's how it works in English; I can't speak for Italian or Koine Greek.

More to the point of loss of confidence in authority: One morning most of the folks in our Sunday School class were out, leaving just me and a couple of single ladies. K was older; her husband had told her the week before Christmas that he no longer loved her, leaving her to care for two teen-aged boys. A was in her 20s and not yet married. They got to talking about men. A had left the Catholic church, and one of her issues with Catholicism was that while they obviously bless marriage, their archetype for the ideal Christian woman was a woman who had no sexual desires. Which was an ideal that she herself could not attain.

I had the good sense keep my mouth shut and stay out of that conversation.

For A, the solution was as simple as moving to a denomination with different authority and different traditions with which they interpret scripture. For Matthias's student, that option is not open.

 

[St. SteVen]

In my view, it seems like age might be affecting your reading comprehension and cognitive sharpness.

John Calvin based assurance on God's election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

All five of you are wrong. IMHO

Ask @Ritajanice how you can have assurance. She'll tell you.

[

 

[Eternally Grateful]

See my post no. 259....

I guess I see it different

the word of God is the literal words of God.

4 corners of the earth is not hard to explain.

I know there are parables. God uses symbols to represent spiritual truths.

But sadly. Many people. Including catholics I feel when they can not explain something, or when it goes against what they think it says, just spiritualize it away. So they can in their minds explain it. They do this a lot wiht prophesy.

The big difference between premillennialism view and the amillenial view is how one interprets prophesy.

The premillenial says the things have not been seen yet, so they are yet future

the amillenial says the things have not happen yet. So they must be spiritual (but they are not future)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yeah. Matthew 1:25 is problematic for their theology.
There's a new version of a Catholic commentary bible that has actually changed the wording of Matthew 1:25 - at least in the Italian version.
I tried to get it online but cannot find it. I've seen it myself, a friend works in a Catholic book store here in my town. Sorry, can't remember the wording enough to state it.

I did find what the Conference of Bishops states:

* [1:25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

source: Matthew, CHAPTER 1


This is rather interesting.
The Italian bibles I use also use the word UNTIL to mean a time frame.
Difficult to get away from....

This goes to show my point I think

He did not know his wife UNTIL she gave birth

the literalist says that this just plainly says they had no sexual relations until the birth of Jesus.

The spiritualist still says they never had sex, so they can not take this verse literally or have to try to explain it away.

in my view. We should just take it as what it says

The word “know” is used to represent to know intimately, or sexual relations.

If Joseph and mary NEVER had sexual relations. Or if Joseph never KNEW mary intimately. Then there is absolutely no reason to put this in the word in fact it is meaningless.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Can Christians know they are saved (cf. 1 John 5:13)?

1 John has three tests or evidences.
Doctrinal (belief, 1 John 1:1,5,10; 2:18-25; 4:1-6,14-16; 5:11-12)
Lifestyle (obedience, 1 John 2:2-3; 2:3-6; 3:1-10; 5:18)
Social (love, 1 John 1:2-3; 2:7-11; 3:11-18; 4:7-12, 16-21)

Assurance is difficult because
often believers seek certain experiences not promised in the Bible
often believers do not fully understand the gospel
often believers continue to willfully sin (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 9:27; 1 Tim. 1:19-20; 2 Tim. 4:10; 2 Pet. 1:8-11)
certain personality types (i.e., perfectionists) can never accept God's unconditional acceptance and love
in the Bible there are examples of false professions (cf. Matt. 13:3-23; 7:21-23; Mark 4:14-20; 2 Pet. 2:19-20; 1 John 2:18-19, see SPECIAL TOPIC: Apostasy)

Believers' primary assurance is linked to the character of the Triune God
God the Father's love (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Characteristics of Israel's God [OT])
John 3:16; 10:28-29
Romans 8:31-39
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
Philippians 1:6
1 Peter 1:3-5
1 John 4:7-21
God the Son's actions
death on our behalf (i.e., Isaiah 53)
 (1) Mark 10:45
 (2) Acts 2:23
 (3) Romans 5:6-11
 (4) 2 Corinthians 5:21
 (5) Heb. 9:28
 (6) John 2:2; 4:9-10
high priestly prayer (John 17:12)
continuing intercession
 (1) Romans 8:34
 (2) Hebrews 7:25; 9:24
 (3) 1 John 2:1
God the Spirit's ministry
calling (John 6:44,65)
advocate ‒ John 14:16; 16:7
teacher ‒ John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:27
intercessing, Rom. 8:26-27
sealing
 (1) 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5
 (2) Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:3
assuring internal witness
 (1) Jphn 15:26
 (2) Romans 8:16-17
 (3) 1 John 5:7-13
But humans must respond to God's covenant offer (both initially and continually)
believers must turn from sin (repentance, cf. Mark 1:4; SPECIAL TOPIC: Repentance [NT]) and to God through Jesus (faith)
Mark 1:15
Acts 3:16,19; 20:21; 26:20
believers must receive God's offer in Christ (see SPECIAL TOPIC: What Does It Mean to "receive," "believe," "confess/profess," "call upon"?)
John 1:12; 3:16
Romans 5:1 (and by analogy 10:9-13)
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
believers must continue in the faith (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Perseverance)
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
remembering that the goal of salvation is Christlikeness
Romans 8:28-29
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 4:19
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10; 4:13
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:3; 5:23
Titus 2:14
1 Peter 1:15
Assurance has become a denominational issue
John Calvin based assurance on God's election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE

Assurance -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

J.

I think it is much more simple than this

John tried to help us by writing a whole letter, then saying I write these things to you so you May KNOW you have eternal life. And it is this knowledge that keeps us believing in his name

Faith literally means having an assurance, or confidence that the one or thing you have faith in will come true.

If God says we have eternal life. Then faith in that is an assurance that God will keep his promise.

It is based on God and his promise. Not on us and our ability.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All five of you are wrong. IMHO

Ask @Ritajanice how you can have assurance. She'll tell you.

[

Or just look to the word of God and speak to the spirit.

 

[Lambano]

John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).

Wesley's own sense of assurance came from his Aldersgate experience of "feeling his heart strangely warmed". While Wesley taugth that "entire sanctification" was possible, he notably never claimed it for himself. However, like Utley, he did teach that lifestyle of obedience has its own assurance.

Ask @Ritajanice how you can have assurance. She'll tell you.

Assurance is difficult because often believers seek certain experiences not promised in the Bible

My experience (note the irony) is that Utley is correct on this one. God doesn't always hand out those mountain-top experiences, and I have known Christians who have lived long fruitful lives without one, just trusting God. Needing those experiences is and not receiving them can be as devasting as, well, realizing that the Bible isn't perfect.

 

[Johann]

Wesley's own sense of assurance came from his Aldersgate experience of "feeling his heart strangely warmed". While Wesley taugth that "entire sanctification" was possible, he notably never claimed it for himself. However, like Utley, he did teach that lifestyle of obedience has its own assurance.





My experience (note the irony) is that Utley is correct on this one. God doesn't always hand out those mountain-top experiences, and I have known Christians who have lived long fruitful lives without one, just trusting God. Needing those experiences is and not receiving them can be as devasting as, well, realizing that the Bible isn't perfect.

Utley is accurate on biblical doctrines, and I don’t need your review of him. The camaraderie and cliques on this thread/-s-questioning the Scriptures with lighthearted jokes-is something for you and your friends, @Lambano.

J.

 

[Johann]

Ah, what the hell.

Correct--what the hell--

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, what the hell. We've already trashed Matthias's thread.

I find myself differing from the Conference of Bishops. The choice of Jesus's birth as the terminus of the "UNTIL" time frame (rather than, say, Mary's physical death) STRONGLY implies normal marital conduct afterwards. That's just how humans use language. At least, that's how it works in English; I can't speak for Italian or Koine Greek.

Agreed.

More to the point of loss of confidence in authority: One morning most of the folks in our Sunday School class were out, leaving just me and a couple of single ladies. K was older; her husband had told her the week before Christmas that he no longer loved her, leaving her to care for two teen-aged boys. A was in her 20s and not yet married. They got to talking about men. A had left the Catholic church, and one of her issues with Catholicism was that while they obviously bless marriage, their archetype for the ideal Christian woman was a woman who had no sexual desires. Which was an ideal that she herself could not attain.

Wow! Where did A get this weird idea from?
I just never heard of this.
IF this were what the CC teaches, it would be a wonder ANY women are left there! LOL

I had the good sense keep my mouth shut and stay out of that conversation.

For A, the solution was as simple as moving to a denomination with different authority and different traditions with which they interpret scripture. For Matthias's student, that option is not open.

I don't know why the option of leaving a denomination was not open for @Matthias ' student.
(not that it matters at this late stage).

 

[GodsGrace]

Wesley's own sense of assurance came from his Aldersgate experience of "feeling his heart strangely warmed". While Wesley taugth that "entire sanctification" was possible, he notably never claimed it for himself. However, like Utley, he did teach that lifestyle of obedience has its own assurance.





My experience (note the irony) is that Utley is correct on this one. God doesn't always hand out those mountain-top experiences, and I have known Christians who have lived long fruitful lives without one, just trusting God. Needing those experiences is and not receiving them can be as devasting as, well, realizing that the Bible isn't perfect.

One of the first things I learned as a new Christian was not to depend on feelings but to depend on the promises of God as found in the NT.
Example: God leaves us HIS peace --- we have to learn what that means since there's not too much peace as I look around, and I mean in person's lives.
He promises to give eternal life to those that love His Son and transform their lives to what Jesus taught.

Yes. IF you need an experience and never get one....it will be devastating.
I do think that the Holy Spirit will give to us what we need if we pay close attention...

 

[Herbert]

My church has a recent sermon on this and I’m going to post it soon. I think I’m not allowed to show links yet since I’m new, according to the rules, if I’m right

 

[GodsGrace]

This goes to show my point I think

He did not know his wife UNTIL she gave birth

the literalist says that this just plainly says they had no sexual relations until the birth of Jesus.

The spiritualist still says they never had sex, so they can not take this verse literally or have to try to explain it away.

in my view. We should just take it as what it says

The word “know” is used to represent to know intimately, or sexual relations.

If Joseph and mary NEVER had sexual relations. Or if Joseph never KNEW mary intimately. Then there is absolutely no reason to put this in the word in fact it is meaningless.

I agree.
But do you agree that someone MUST believe that the earth was created in 6 days in order to accept the bible as truth?
Is the earth only 6 thousand years old?
Do serpents speak?

The bible is full of truth even if it's not a science or history "book".
Although it does contain science and history.

Before we knew about the Big Bang Theory, the bible said LET THERE BE LIGHT....
or IN THE BEGINNING....which is a truth statement. The universe had a beginning....

Science used to believe that the universe always existed....
The bible is truth.
But it may not be literal in each and every verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

My church has a recent sermon on this and I’m going to post it soon. I think I’m not allowed to show links yet since I’m new, according to the rules, if I’m right

Or you could summarize the sermon.
Some never look at links anyway - I'm one of them.
Don't have enough time....

 

[Matthias]

My church has a recent sermon on this …

Your church has a recent sermon on how to help someone who has lost confidence in the reliability of the Bible?

… and I’m going to post it soon. I think I’m not allowed to show links yet since I’m new, according to the rules, if I’m right

Welcome to the forum.