The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

Did you ever read Romans 1 and 2?

*The latest exciting episode of, Ask the Retired Pastor *

Yes. I’ve read Romans 1 and 2.

P.S.

The last time I read Romans 1 was on 10/21/24.

The last time I read Romans 2 was on 10/22/24.

That’s just where I am with the reading plan (twice through the New Testament) that I’m using this year.

I posted verses from there just above.....

What do you think it means?

I’m still thinking about what it means that you struck out the verses you posted. Looks like that has been corrected since I first saw it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Where are they getting there information from?

Once I became Born Again, I immediately went out and bought a Bible..the Spirit has brought me to understanding, much in his word..all that I knew was that I was Born Again, that’s all I knew, when I received divine heart revelation....the Bible helps us to grow and mature to be like Christ...but, his word must speak to our heart, if that makes sense...God Bless,Brother.

Ps the Spirit indwells our heart/spirit, permanently, he will never leave us nor forsake us, we know God in our heart/spirit .
And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.”

...In Jesus Name!..Amen!

 

[Matthias]

I would say to the student, "Many words from God are given before their time, only to be revealed when the times are fulfilled."

In the case of John 5:4, this is that time and healing has come. You are the student.

I’m not sure that would have helped him deal with the verse not being in the NIV he was using.

 

[Johann]

The studen Matthias is speaking of LOST HIS FAITH because he depended too much on the bible.
Isn't this a bad sign?

Joshua 1:8

"This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success."

Psalm 1:2-3

"But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season..."

Psalm 119:11

"Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You."

Proverbs 2:1-5

"My son, if you receive my words, and treasure my commands within you... Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God."

Isaiah 55:11

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please..."

Matthew 22:29

"Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.'"

John 8:31-32

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, 'If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Romans 15:4

"For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."

2 Timothy 2:15

"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

2 Timothy 3:16-17

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

These verses highlight that studying Scripture builds wisdom, character, and spiritual strength, equipping us for godly living and deepening our understanding of God’s purpose for us.
Deuteronomy 8:3

"So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna... that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord."

Psalm 119:50

"This is my comfort in my affliction, for Your word has given me life."

Psalm 119:93

"I will never forget Your precepts, for by them You have given me life."

Psalm 119:105

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."

Proverbs 4:20-22

"My son, give attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings... For they are life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh."

Matthew 4:4

"But He answered and said, 'It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'"

John 6:63

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

John 5:24

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Hebrews 4:12

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword... and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Peter 1:23

"Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever."



I’m confident that @Matthias directed his student back to the Scriptures to restore his wavering faith. There’s no such thing as relying too much on the Bible.

J.

 

[Johann]

Because you know God in your heart, I believe?

And biblical illiteracy is the norm.
What a shame to those who "profess" they know the Christ without the Scriptures!

J.

 

[Matthias]

Once I became Born Again, I immediately went out and bought a Bible..the Spirit has brought me to understanding, much in his word..all that I knew was that I was Born Again, that’s all I knew, when I received divine heart revelation....the Bible helps us to grow and mature to be like Christ...but, his word must speak to our heart, if that makes sense...God Bless,Brother.

Ps the Spirit indwells our heart/spirit, permanently, he will never leave us nor forsake us, we know God in our heart/spirit .
And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.”

...In Jesus Name!..Amen!

Thanks. I‘m wondering why the people @GodsGrace is telling us about haven’t done that.

 

[Ritajanice]

Thanks. I‘m wondering why the people @GodsGrace is telling us about haven’t done that.

You’re welcome..I think she said, that she will get back to you...she’s off to bed.

 

[Matthias]

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children,Spirit gives birth to spirit, my spirit was Born Again by the seed of God...the seed of God is His Living Witness ,the Holy Spirit,who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit..which comes by divine heart revelation ,just as his word says...

This @Matthias ..was exactly how I was Born Of The Spirit.

Berean Standard Bible

Par ▾

Jesus and Nicodemus
(Genesis 22:1–10; Romans 5:6–11)
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a”
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

What about the post-biblical creeds? Did they / do they play any role in your personal conversion story?

 

[ScottA]

I’m not sure that would have helped him deal with the verse not being in the NIV he was using.

He was not the object or student, but spoke out as a babe. He did not need help, but was given the question that the passage should be heard again. Thank you for sharing it!

As for him, telling him that the time had not yet come for the passage to be fully revealed, is correct.

 

[Ritajanice]

What about the post-biblical creeds? Did they / do they play any role in your personal conversion story?

Just explained my friend ..I was Born Again by divine heart revelation ..not by any creeds, nor by reading a Bible...God isn’t a Bible, he’s a Living Spirit...Alive and Active...is everywhere.

6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

◄ Romans 8:16 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. New Living Translation For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. English Standard Version The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Berean Standard Bible The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

No more from me, my friend..back to topic. If that’s ok..

 

[Matthias]

He was not the object or student, but spoke out as a babe. He did not need help, but was given the question that the passage should be heard again.

As for him, telling him that the time had not yet come for the passage to be fully revealed, is correct.

I’m not following what you’re saying. He was trying to evangelize a Muslim. The Muslim pointed out that John 5:4 isn’t in the NIV. The student didn’t know that, saw for the first time that the NIV skips from verse 3 directly to verse 5, causing him to (briefly) lose confidence in the reliability of scripture.

I don’t see how telling the student “the time had not yet come for the passage to be fully revealed” - the passage that isn’t contained in the NIV (and other translations) - would have helped him regain his confidence in the reliability of the Bible.

Perhaps you will elaborate on it for us.

 

[Matthias]

Just explained my friend ..I was Born Again by divine heart revelation ..not by any creeds, nor by reading a Bible...God isn’t a Bible, he’s a Living Spirit...Alive and Active...is everywhere.

6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

No more from me, my friend..back to topic. If that’s ok..

Thanks. I was just curious. They play no role in my own salvation story.

 

[Johann]

Just explained my friend ..I was Born Again by divine heart revelation ..not by any creeds, nor by reading a Bible...God isn’t a Bible, he’s a Living Spirit...Alive and Active...is everywhere.

6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

No more from me, my friend..back to topic. If that’s ok..

The tendency in the West to separate Scripture from Christ may be rooted in several cultural, theological, and philosophical factors:

Rationalism and Secularism: Western thought, especially since the Enlightenment, has often emphasized rationalism, skepticism, and a scientific approach to knowledge, sometimes creating a divide between "historical Jesus" research and the Christ of faith. As scholars analyzed the Bible through purely historical-critical methods, Christ was sometimes relegated to a figure of ancient history rather than a living presence embodied in Scripture.

Individualism and Subjectivity: Western culture often prioritizes individual experience, autonomy, and subjectivity, which can lead people to view Scripture through the lens of personal experience or interpretive frameworks rather than seeing it as revealing the life and character of Christ directly. This individualistic focus can overshadow a communal and Christ-centered reading of Scripture.

Fragmentation of Scripture in Study and Interpretation: Bible study, particularly in academic settings, often involves dividing Scripture into parts—historical analysis, linguistic study, literary structure—sometimes at the expense of seeing the cohesive revelation of Christ. This compartmentalized approach can lead to an interpretation that misses the unified, Christ-centered message of the Bible.

Focus on Moralism and Pragmatism in Churches: In some Western churches, sermons and teachings emphasize moralistic or pragmatic applications of Scripture, centering more on principles of self-help, ethics, or social justice than on the person and work of Christ. This focus can reduce Scripture to a set of guidelines rather than a living encounter with Jesus.

Cultural Pluralism and Relativism: The emphasis on pluralism and relativism in Western societies often discourages exclusive or absolute claims about truth. This mindset can lead to a view of Christ as just one of many religious figures and the Bible as one of many sacred texts, rather than as the unique revelation of Christ, the Word of God.

Influence of Postmodernism: Postmodern philosophy, which questions absolute truths and focuses on subjective interpretation, has influenced the way people read the Bible. In this context, Scripture is sometimes viewed as open to personal interpretation rather than as a definitive revelation of Christ.

Together, these factors contribute to an interpretive lens that, at times, views Scripture as a historical or moral document rather than a divine narrative centered on Christ. For a faith that embraces the inseparability of Christ and Scripture, there must be a return to seeing Jesus as the incarnate Word (John 1:1, 14) and interpreting all Scripture as pointing to Him (Luke 24:27).

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Thanks. I was just curious. They play no role in my own salvation story.

You’re very welcome, Brother, God Bless You , as you journey with him, In Jesus Name!...Amen!

 

[ScottA]

I’m not following what you’re saying. He was trying to evangelize a Muslim. The Muslim pointed out that John 5:4 isn’t in the NIV. The student didn’t know that, saw for the first time that the NIV skips from verse 3 directly to verse 5, causing him to (briefly) lose confidence in the reliability of scripture.

I don’t see how telling the student “the time had not yet come for the passage to be fully revealed” - the passage that isn’t contained in the NIV (and other translations) - would have helped him regain his confidence in the reliability of the Bible.

Perhaps you will elaborate on it for us.

There are countless matters and details and steps leading unto all truth and to finishing the great mysteries of God. The details however are not the issue, as in the case of the missing passage in John 5, but only contribute to the end being fashioned by God.

In which case, when confronted with details that interrupt ones personal progress along the way, the need is rather to have faith and endure--not to question the foundational points on which we stand. If a teacher of students is confronted with such an issue and does not have the answer clearly from God, the best response is to say so, and offer encouragement regarding God's faithfulness to provide what is missing in his good time. Or, to the contrary, that He will cause correction that the passage rightly be struck from all other translations, if that is the case. But that is not the case.

As for why the discrepancy, again, such things are like stones in the path going forward that God will remove in His good time-- "make straight the way of the Lord." Which is what I have done by saying that the passage was for this time. What does that mean? All in due time...and yet I have made no secret of it. But I will tell you: This is the 38th year.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree.
But do you agree that someone MUST believe that the earth was created in 6 days in order to accept the bible as truth?

Does God have the power and might to do that? I believe he does. god can do anything

I hold to a six day creation young earth

Is the earth only 6 thousand years old?
Do serpents speak?

Probably closer to ten

The bible is full of truth even if it's not a science or history "book".
Although it does contain science and history.

Most of it is history. Especially the OT

Before we knew about the Big Bang Theory, the bible said LET THERE BE LIGHT....
or IN THE BEGINNING....which is a truth statement. The universe had a beginning....

Yes. But was it a big bang?

Science used to believe that the universe always existed....
The bible is truth.
But it may not be literal in each and every verse.

Maybe not. But unless it says to do otherwise lean toward literal

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My church has a recent sermon on this and I’m going to post it soon. I think I’m not allowed to show links yet since I’m new, according to the rules, if I’m right

Welcome to the forum and discussion

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Matthias,
To recap....
If we lose faith due to losing confidence in the bible, it means we trusted THE BIBLE instead of GOD.

I think they go hand in hand do they not?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How many people would believe in God and in the Messiah if there was no Bible?

The student I spoke about in the OP was on the cusp of throwing the Bible in a garbage can.

Wow. Now that is sad. Makes ya wonder his background

 

[Matthias]

There are countless matters and details and steps leading unto all truth and to finishing the great mysteries of God. The details however are not the issue, as in the case of the missing passage in John 5, but only contribute to the end being fashioned by God.

In which case, when confronted with details that interrupt ones personal progress along the way, the need is rather to have faith and endure--not to question the foundational points on which we stand. If a teacher of students is confronted with such an issue and does not have the answer clearly from God, the best response is to say so, and offer encouragement regarding God's faithfulness to provide what is missing in his good time. Or, to the contrary, that He will cause correction that the passage rightly be struck from all other translations, if that is the case. But that is not the case.

As for why the discrepancy, again, such things are like stones in the path going forward that God will remove in His good time-- "make straight the way of the Lord." Which is what I have done by saying that the passage was for this time. What does that mean? All in due time...and yet I have made no secret of it. But I will tell you: This is the 38th year.

Thanks for elaborating. I didn’t take that approach with him and I don’t know if it would have helped him or not. It might have.