The curious case of John 5:4

[Lambano]

Is this for me?
I'm trying to state what the OP is supposed to be telling the "fallen" believer.
Must not be doing a good job of it.

Nah, that was just a general comment. And since I'm not a moderator, I am probably out of line in doing so.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nah, that was just a general comment. And since I'm not a moderator, I am probably out of line in doing so.

You're never out of line Lambano!

 

[Matthias]

I honestly don’t know, I can’t prove anything to anyone else and I believe by faith that the word is inspired.As to the whole issue of those who chose to include or not include things, I simply don’t know enough.
Most of my family are non believers - so I come up against a lot of questions, all I can relay is what I believe - and pray that it will plant seeds xx

Thanks. This thread was started for the benefit of people like yourself in mind who don’t know what they would do. I hadn’t thought about it prior to finding myself in that position twenty years ago. I handled it - successfully, I’m happy to report - but I might have handled it better, or in a different manner, if I had been prepared for it beforehand.

Some good suggestions have been offered in this thread. Many of them I did, some of them I didn’t, a few I wouldn’t. I’m better equipped now than I was back then, due in part to contributions made in this thread.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
So, you say "Yes." unless we are referring to the KJV? - LOL

It’s disingenuous to take an excerpt of my post and twist it. Your questions have already been answered.

J.

Not really.
Your many words are a workaround to end at my stated conclusion.
The only disingenuous thing is your failure to own the facts.

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[Eternally Grateful]

St. SteVen said:
So, you say "Yes." unless we are referring to the KJV? - LOL

Not really.
Your many words are a workaround to end at my stated conclusion.
The only disingenuous thing is your failure to own the facts.

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You’re the one being disingenuous now. He gave you his reasoning.

if you disagree with him, thats fine, but to attack him like this, well it is just very telling of who you are.

 

[Matthias]

Something I would do now that I didn’t do then -> pray with the student. I prayed about the situation. He told me that he tried to pray about it but his heart wasn’t in it. I should have offered, or asked, to pray with him. It worked out but this is something that I could have done which might have served him better.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bible testifies to Jesus Christ, who He is and what He's done. How would you help the student trust the Bible again? How would you help the student continue to follow Jesus when our star witness to Christ has been shown to be fallible?

I suppose it's like the first dent in a new automobile. It's no longer perfect.
But you still need it every day to get around. And it works the same.
You no longer show it around as your pride and joy. It is no longer an idol in your life.

The other option would be to get rid of it. Since it is no longer perfect.
Or as an extreme, give up driving all together, since an automobile can't be trusted to remain perfect.

I don't hate the Bible. I use it every day. But a relationship with the author was the whole point of the book.
Seems silly to idolize the book. What bothers me is those telling us the Bible is perfect and always will be.
If they had told us the truth, we wouldn't have this problem.

Like Nehushtan. The bronze snake on a pole that had originally brought recovery from serpent bites became an idol.
Christ even likened himself to it. "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[a]
that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” - John 3:14-15

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[St. SteVen]

But I don't think we've been handed a false religion!
What makes it be false??

The thing I haven't seen much on this topic yet, is admitting that the Muslim was right.
Everyone assumes he was wrong, because he was a Muslim.

He successfully destroyed the thing too many Christians idolize. And they are here
on this topic trying to glue this shattered object of worship back together.

- What happens if we tell the student that the Muslim was wrong?
- What happens if we tell the student that the Muslim was right?
- Which is easier to live with? The delusion, or the truth?

The student was victim to a grand betrayal. Will you protect the betrayer?

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[Deborah_]

Please note the ASV does not have John 5: 4 either. It was created in 1901 before the Dead Sea scrolls were found..

so while I agree, they are a wonderful reason for why the verse should be doubted as scripture and at the lease possibly removed, or at lease notes in italics. Older bibles did not have it their either, even before the Dead Sea scrolls came

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the point that older manuscripts can be discovered at any time and cause us to revise the text of our Bibles.

But they only contain the Hebrew Scriptures - our Old Testament! So they have nothing to do with the arguments over the NT manuscripts.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bible testifies to Jesus Christ, who He is and what He's done. How would you help the student trust the Bible again? How would you help the student continue to follow Jesus when our star witness to Christ has been shown to be fallible?

How to have faith when certainty is no longer viable.

This is why I tagged you; you've been through this. I need your help here.

If the one trying to help the student really believes the Bible is infallible...
The only thing they can do is to keep up the façade. (false face)

So, pour on the workaround apologetics as a cover-up to the truth.
Johan has done a good job of laying out the apologetics. If you buy it.

You MIGHT get the student through this challenge.
But John 5:4 isn't the end of it. It's just the beginning.

Until we take our faith and trust off of the church and their flawed book,
we will never get ahead of this. This broken world includes a broken church and a broken Bible.

Seek God's face in the full realization of this. Ultimately, nothing can be trusted but God alone.
If your relationship is with a broken church and a broken Bible, you are still lost in your sin.

To be clear, I still read the Bible and I still go to church. I just don't promote either one above their proper station.

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[St. SteVen]

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the point that older manuscripts can be discovered at any time and cause us to revise the text of our Bibles.

But they only contain the Hebrew Scriptures - our Old Testament! So they have nothing to do with the arguments over the NT manuscripts.

One of the problems with the New Testament manuscript fragments/copies (of copies, of copies, of copies...) is that there are TOO MANY of them.
And the oldest ones are in pretty rough shape. LOL

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[St. SteVen]

Here's an angle we may have not considered.
The Muslim was claiming that the Bible is corrupted. What about the Qu'ran?

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[Matthias]

Here's an angle we may have not considered.
The Muslim was claiming that the Bible is corrupted. What about the Qu'ran?

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@KUWN started an interesting, and helpful, thread on that topic recently. It’s titled Islamic Approach to Textual Criticism, located in the Apologetics forum.

Something that I didn’t mention to the student -> the Muslim did him a good service.

The student wouldn’t have seen it that way while he was going through the crisis but I think he probably would looking back at it once it was over.

 

[Lambano]

I suppose it's like the first dent in a new automobile. It's no longer perfect.
But you still need it every day to get around. And it works the same.
You no longer show it around as your pride and joy. It is no longer an idol in your life.

Hey a little touch-up paint, a little duct tape, good as new!

The duct tape is quite literal; see post #45.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the point that older manuscripts can be discovered at any time and cause us to revise the text of our Bibles.

But they only contain the Hebrew Scriptures - our Old Testament! So they have nothing to do with the arguments over the NT manuscripts.

True,

hence the argument about the Dead Sea scrolls being used to show why newer bibles were changed as far as the NT is baseless..

yet it was used by someone concerning the topic

 

[Lambano]

The other option would be to get rid of it. Since it is no longer perfect.
Or as an extreme, give up driving all together, since an automobile can't be trusted to remain perfect.

The first option ungrounds the faith from the historical Jesus. A friend of mine from church did that. He has a "Jesus" that he met in some kind of mystical experience. I'm not sure who his "Jesus" is. I have no way of knowing or relating to that "Jesus".

The second option is less than optimal, speaking as one of Jesus's people.

 

[Lambano]

You're never out of line Lambano!

Oh yeah? Here, hold my beer and watch this!

 

[St. SteVen]

Hey a little touch-up paint, a little duct tape, good as new!

The duct tape is quite literal; see post #45.

LOL
I have a lot of respect for anyone who has destroyed a Bible via study.
I had to tape the broken binding on mine.

Alternatively, if you want to look mature... just throw it down the stairs once a week, or drag it behind your car.

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[St. SteVen]

Here's an angle we may have not considered.
The Muslim was claiming that the Bible is corrupted. What about the Qu'ran?

Might have to be careful on this one. The Muslim may be required to kill you. - LOL

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[Wick Stick]

Indicating that we refuse to recognize that our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us might actually have information and spiritual insights that we ourselves don't have.

Or perhaps indicating that one thinks that the Christian faith has suffered great corruption over the years in the hands of the Catholic Church.