The curious case of John 5:4

[GodsGrace]

When is the last time you read this passage of scripture?

Some people read the Bible cover to cover and have never read it. If the translation you use is one of the following, you won’t have read it and may not even be aware of it: CJB, DLNT, ERV, GNT, NABRE, NIV, NIVUK, and TLV.

John 5:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I spoke with a concerned student some years back who encountered this curious case and came to me on the verge of losing his trust in the reliability of Bible. As I recall, the student (who had read only the NIV) had been completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him.

Would you, the reader, have been able to help the shaken student? If you would, how would you go about it?

Sorry Matthias
I hate using my phone for this.
Just saw the link.

Also I tried to Google John 5:4 and it sent me to this thread!

 

[Matthias]

You shoulda posted the verse for the lazy bunch!
LOL

The link I posted in the OP contains the verse. I was posting it though to document the translations it is missing in. It hadn’t occurred to me until I read your comment that perhaps I needed to post it to document the translations that do include it.

One person who responded is just a trouble maker. I think everyone else has replied in good faith. There are multiple ways the student could be helped. I used some of them. I doubt we have exhausted the possibilities.

The purpose of the thread is, primarily, to cause people to think about how they would handle the situation if it ever comes up in their experiences; secondarily, to see if there was another way to handle that I didn’t use (or even think about) when it came up in my experience twenty years ago and might come up again at some point in the future.

There are a few problems in the Bible.
Was a census ever taken?
How many days and nights was Jesus in the tomb?

My reply would be simple...
We have to decide if God exists.
We have to decide who Jesus is.

Mistakes are man-made.
We're not trusting in a man.

 

[Matthias]

Sorry Matthias
I hate using my phone for this.
Just saw the link.

Also I tried to Google John 5:4 and it sent me to this thread!

No problem. You mentioned something in passing that hadn’t occurred to me when I wrote the OP. I appreciate that. We’ve got it covered from multiple angles now.

I’m laughing at the fact that when you Googled the verse it sent you to this thread! I wouldn’t have thought that would happen. If it had happened to me I’m sure I would have had a surprised look on my face when it pulled up.

 

[Matthias]

I was just looking at how John 5:4 is handled in the Jerusalem Bible. It contains verse 4 but places asterisks at the beginning and end of the verse. The JB has a bevy of notes throughout but doesn’t have a note on verse 4. (That surprises me.)

I suppose the reader is supposed to see the asterisks, raise their eyebrows knowing that something is up - maybe even knowing exactly what is up - and read on. As someone commented, it simply adds some useful background information.

 

[Lambano]

Every edition of the NIV that I've ever owned has had the "missing" text in a footnote. And so I have read it - many times.

I really don't see why there should be a problem over it. The "concerned student" needs to learn something about ancient manuscripts and why they don't always agree.

Just a little digression: The NIV I have is actually not mine; it was given to my stepson by his Sunday School class back in Florida. It has his first name but my last name engraved on the cover, which annoyed him so he didn't want it. But I found it more readable than the nice leather-bound KJV with the zipper and the colorful maps my grandparents had given me back when I was seven, so I read and read that NIV (including the footnotes) until the binding started falling apart. When our son got out of the Navy, he wanted it back (wrong name and all), but by that time the binding was held together with duct tape.

So, I read the footnotes and I've long known about the manuscript issues. I agree that it shouldn't have been a problem.

 

[Johann]

When is the last time you read this passage of scripture?

Some people read the Bible cover to cover and have never read it. If the translation you use is one of the following, you won’t have read it and may not even be aware of it: CJB, DLNT, ERV, GNT, NABRE, NIV, NIVUK, and TLV.

John 5:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I spoke with a concerned student some years back who encountered this curious case and came to me on the verge of losing his trust in the reliability of Bible. As I recall, the student (who had read only the NIV) had been completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him.

Would you, the reader, have been able to help the shaken student? If you would, how would you go about it?

This verse (John 5:3b-4) is a later scribal commentary which tries to explain

the presence of all the sick people by the pool
why this man had been there so long
why he wanted someone to put him in the water, John 5:7
It is obviously a Jewish folk tale. It was not part of John's original Gospel. The evidence for this verse not being included is:

it is not in manuscripts P66, P75, א, B, C*, D
it is marked by an asterisk in over 20 additional later Greek manuscripts, showing that this text was thought not to be original
there are several non-Johannine terms used in this short verse
It is included in several early Greek uncial manuscripts, A, C3, K, and L. It is also included in the Diatessaron (about A.D. 180), and the writings of Tertullian (A.D. 200), Ambrose, Chrysostom, and Cyril. This shows its antiquity but not its inclusion in the original inspired Gospel. It is included in KJV, NASB (1995 Update, with brackets), and NKJV, but omitted in NASB (1970), NRSV, NJB, REB, NET Bible, and NIV.

For a good discussion of the manuscript variants by an evangelical textual critic, see Gordon Fee, To What End Exegesis?, pp. 17-28.

SPECIAL TOPIC: TEXTUAL CRITICISM

John 5

Haven't read your post but this from Bob Utley.

J.

 

[Johann]

Another way that I used to help the student was guide him to commentaries. Initially he was reluctant to make use of commentaries - for the same reason that he was reluctant to look at any footnotes.

Here is the commentary on John 5:4 from the NET. (I agree with the commentary.)

John 5

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

See note 9tc.

A good source @Matthias.

J.

 

[Lambano]

Here is the commentary on John 5:4 from the NET. (I agree with the commentary.)

I love NET Bible's very extensive footnotes; they're very helpful. In an interesting irony, I couldn't access footnote 9tc from my iPhone at work and had to wait until I got home to look it up on my computer. The nice folks at NET Bible need to make their site more compatible with phone OSes. I suppose that was a sign I should've been paying attention to my work Zoom call instead of reading this forum.

 

[Johann]

Another way that I used to help the student was guide him to commentaries. Initially he was reluctant to make use of commentaries - for the same reason that he was reluctant to look at any footnotes.

Here is the commentary on John 5:4 from the NET. (I agree with the commentary.)

John 5

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

See note 9tc.

Most here don't read "commentaries" brother @Matthias-sad, but true.

J.

 

[Johann]

I love NET Bible's very extensive footnotes; they're very helpful. In an interesting irony, I couldn't access footnote 9tc from my iPhone at work and had to wait until I got home to look it up on my computer. The nice folks at NET Bible need to make their site more compatible with phone OSes. I suppose that was a sign I should've been paying attention to my work Zoom call instead of reading this forum.

tc The majority of later mss (C Θ Ψ 078 ƒ M) add the following to 5:3: “waiting for the moving of the water. 5:4 For an angel of the Lord went down and stirred up the water at certain times. Whoever first stepped in after the stirring of the water was healed from whatever disease which he suffered.” Other mss include only v. 3b (A D 33 lat) or v. 4 (A L it). Few textual scholars today would accept the authenticity of any portion of vv. 3b-4, for they are not found in the earliest and best witnesses (P א B C* T co), they include un-Johannine vocabulary and syntax, several of the mss that include the verses mark them as spurious (with an asterisk or obelisk), and because there is a great amount of textual diversity among the witnesses that do include the verses. The present translation follows NA in omitting the verse number, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.

John 5

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

J.

 

[Johann]

tc The majority of later mss (C Θ Ψ 078 ƒ M) add the following to 5:3: “waiting for the moving of the water. 5:4 For an angel of the Lord went down and stirred up the water at certain times. Whoever first stepped in after the stirring of the water was healed from whatever disease which he suffered.” Other mss include only v. 3b (A D 33 lat) or v. 4 (A L it). Few textual scholars today would accept the authenticity of any portion of vv. 3b-4, for they are not found in the earliest and best witnesses (P א B C* T co), they include un-Johannine vocabulary and syntax, several of the mss that include the verses mark them as spurious (with an asterisk or obelisk), and because there is a great amount of textual diversity among the witnesses that do include the verses. The present translation follows NA in omitting the verse number, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.

John 5

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

J.

Not casting doubts on the Scriptures @Lambano.

J.

 

[Lambano]

The conversation took place sometime around 2004 or 2005. I recall that the student either read or showed the Muslim the passage in NIV (maybe he did both, I’m not sure anymore about that) and the Muslim replied that the Bible has been corrupted. Verse 4, which doesn’t exist in the NIV, was the lynchpin of the Muslim’s argument. That’s what brought on the student’s crisis about the reliability of the Bible.

Nobody has addressed the real issue yet.

This should not have been a crisis. In our need to establish the Bible as authoritative, we have created an intellectual framework that puts expectations on the Bible that are simply not sustainable. As a consequence, every difference in source manuscripts, every difference in translation, every internal contradiction (yes, they exist), every piece of scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old becomes a crisis in faith.

Are we placing our trust in a "what" instead of a "whom"?

@St. SteVen

 

[Lambano]

Most here don't read "commentaries" brother @Matthias-sad, but true.

Indicating that we refuse to recognize that our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us might actually have information and spiritual insights that we ourselves don't have.

 

[Johann]

Indicating that we refuse to recognize that our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us might actually have information and spiritual insights that we ourselves don't have.

That's very true-now that I think about it, how many people are actually familiar with Bob Utley?

J.

 

[Lambano]

That's very true-now that I think about it, how many people are actually familiar with Bob Utley?

J.

To be honest, I had never heard of him until you started quoting him here.

 

[Lambano]

Indicating that we refuse to recognize that our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us might actually have information and spiritual insights that we ourselves don't have.

But while we refuse to acknowledge the potential value of our brothers' and sisters' insights, we expect them to recognize the value of our own.

"But wisdom is vindicated by her children."

 

[Johann]

To be honest, I had never heard of him until you started quoting him here.

The Lord Jesus Christ worked through him to lead me out of Calvinism @Lambano.

Written Bible Commentaries (Bob's latest theological thoughts)
Audio Bible Commentaries (MP3 has many more, longer and detailed lessons.)
Video Bible Commentaries (YouTube)
Special Topics (listed in alphabetical order)
New Testament Survey (written, video)
Charts

New Testament Audio Commentaries

New Testament Bible commentaries by Dr. Bob Utley. Presented in MP3 audio format.

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Perhaps you'd like to take a look at this and share your honest thoughts? I know most people aren't familiar with him.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nobody has addressed the real issue yet.

Agree. When faced with the facts, the tendency is for believers to hunker down on the apologetics that defend the position they were fed by the church. The "crisis of faith" over John 5:4 NIV wouldn't have been a crisis at all if the church had told us the truth in the first place.

The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was dated October 1978.

Zondervan Publishers presents: Peter Enns: Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy

Interesting to see this from Zondervan. A short, 1:44 minutes video message from Peter Enns about... ... the inerrancy of the Bible as an often contentious topic among evangelicals that needs to be revisited. Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy represents a timely contribution by showcasing the...

www.christianityboard.com

This should not have been a crisis. In our need to establish the Bible as authoritative, we have created an intellectual framework that puts expectations on the Bible that are simply not sustainable. As a consequence, every difference in source manuscripts, every difference in translation, every internal contradiction (yes, they exist), every piece of scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old becomes a crisis in faith.

Agree.
"In our need to establish the Bible as authoritative, we have created an intellectual framework that puts expectations on the Bible that are simply not sustainable."

Are we placing our trust in a "what" instead of a "whom"?

I would say, Yes. Many have made a source out of a resource.

Source or Resource? - Understanding the difference

This came up on another topic. Seemed to be worth its own topic. Understanding the difference between the SOURCE and a RESOURCE. God should be our SOURCE. Everything else is a RESOURCE. (including the Bible) Source: - God Resources: - The Bible - Commentaries - Preachers/teachers -...

www.christianityboard.com

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[Johann]

But while we refuse to acknowledge the potential value of our brothers' and sisters' insights, we expect them to recognize the value of our own.

"But wisdom is vindicated by her children."

I think I understand what you're suggesting-are you referring to the doctrine of universalism?

J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks. There were no footnotes in the Bible he was using. He was reluctant to look at footnotes in other Bibles (NIV, and other translations). The reason he gave for his reluctance was footnotes are not inspired.

Here is one of your answers.

No English version of the Bible is inspired. it is a translation from many different people. all of who will interpret based on their personal biases and convictions.