The Critical Link Between Belief and Obedience

[Axehead]

How does one fall short of the grace of God?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. Hence we Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law (Rom 8:33) as we're not under the law..

Fortunately, as Christians, we know that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

But if any true Christian who knows the truth (Heb 6:4-6) turns back to the law to determine righteousness by their works, they only succeed in making themselves a sinner/transgressor of the law, and an unbeliever.

Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

You are saying that as long as they are "believing", they cannot be charged with any sin, since they are "not under the law". Well, belief is active and true belief means one is walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lust of the flesh (unbelief, putting oneself back under the law).

Unbelief can be manifest in many ways and there is no concocted theology that will give us a pass. God has covered it all in the Word so that man is without excuse.

Heb_3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Every sin that Paul talks about your exegesis states he is talking about unbelief. Ok, that's fine. Again, unbelief will destroy you.

Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

And conversely, if you are not led by the Spirit, you put yourself back under the law.

And if you put yourself back under the law, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Gal_5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul had told them this before, many times.

Sometimes Christians are not "fighting the good fight of faith" and that is why Paul is seen correcting them many times. You see that as "negative" talk but Paul said:

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What is it about reproof and correction that you think is negative?


Axehead

 

[haz]

true belief means one is walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lust of the flesh (unbelief, putting oneself back under the law).

I agree that walking in the flesh is unbelief, which includes putting oneself back under the law for righteousness by works.

Unbelief can be manifest in many ways and there is no concocted theology that will give us a pass. God has covered it all in the Word so that man is without excuse.

True.

It can manifest as works of the law for righteousness, which we see many warnings against in the NT. This is even described in scripture as (spiritual) sexual immorality (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Ga; 4:24)

It can also manifest itself as worshiping false gods/idols. Again, this is described as (spiritual) sexual immorality.
Jer 3:9
Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood.

Gal_5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is all spiritual, of course (1Cor 2:14) as scripture is spiritually discerned.
Spiritual adultery/fornication.
Spiritual uncleanness.
Spiritual lasciviousness (lust for Hagar who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Even spiritual drunkenness.
Rev 17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters (peoples, multitudes, nations, Rev 17:15), with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

As we see here in Rev 17 it's spiritual drunkenness as there is no physical wine made from physical sexual immorality.

And all these spiritual issues are a manifestation of unbelief.

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


What is it about reproof and correction that you think is negative?

Note 2Tim 3:14-16
But you must continue in the things which you have learned (the gospel) and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

I see no issue against reproof and correction, as you have suggested.
Christians are to keep the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blameless, 1Tim 6:14.
Scriptures reprove and correct us regarding this good fight of faith.

 

[justaname]

I agree that walking in the flesh is unbelief, which includes putting oneself back under the law for righteousness by works.


True.

It can manifest as works of the law for righteousness, which we see many warnings against in the NT. This is even described in scripture as (spiritual) sexual immorality (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Ga; 4:24)

It can also manifest itself as worshiping false gods/idols. Again, this is described as (spiritual) sexual immorality.
Jer 3:9
Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood.


This is all spiritual, of course (1Cor 2:14) as scripture is spiritually discerned.
Spiritual adultery/fornication.
Spiritual uncleanness.
Spiritual lasciviousness (lust for Hagar who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Even spiritual drunkenness.
Rev 17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters (peoples, multitudes, nations, Rev 17:15), with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

As we see here in Rev 17 it's spiritual drunkenness as there is no physical wine made from physical sexual immorality.

And all these spiritual issues are a manifestation of unbelief.


Note 2Tim 3:14-16
But you must continue in the things which you have learned (the gospel) and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

I see no issue against reproof and correction, as you have suggested.
Christians are to keep the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blameless, 1Tim 6:14.
Scriptures reprove and correct us regarding this good fight of faith.

So I am attempting to clarify your position...
If a married Christian woman comitts adultery (not spiritually) is that sin and is that ok?

Or if a born againg Christian believer decides to do a murder suicide on their family is that sin and is that ok?

For the record I am NOT speaking about my situation...!

Lol!

 

[Axehead]

All sin is lawlessness.

All sin has negative repercussions and will bring forth death.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. The deeds of the flesh cannot be spiritualized. They are only spiritualized to the extent that they are first conceived in the heart, then manifested physically.

The works of the flesh are the "works of the flesh" All sin has a spiritual effect. I think you are getting that concept mixed up. There is a reason Paul details the "works of the flesh", instead of just saying as you do, "that the works of the flesh are just unbelief". There is physical adultery (actually carrying out the spiritual adultery). Yes, when we sin, it is conceived in our hearts first, but all sin will bring forth death as James tells us.

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James is speaking to the "brethren". (James 1:2).

Gal_5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Paul, speaking to the Church).

Yes, we MUST continue in the things we have learned. I fully agree with you on that. "Must" does not denote an option.

Note 2Tim 3:14-16
But you MUST continue in the things which you have learned (the gospel)...

So, if you are saying physical sins are just a manifestation of spiritual sins, then I agree. And the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual, so all sin must be fought from a position of spiritual strength of trust (belief) in Christ.

 

[haz]

So I am attempting to clarify your position...
If a married Christian woman comitts adultery (not spiritually) is that sin and is that ok?

Or if a born againg Christian believer decides to do a murder suicide on their family is that sin and is that ok?

For the record I am NOT speaking about my situation...!

Lol!

It's good to hear that you are not referring to your own life experience here :)

But to answer your question, it's not ok to do those things you offered as an example.
We all know that as Christians our behavior changed and improved after we received Christ.
Yet, we are still not perfect in physical behavior.

Consider King David who committed physical adultery and premeditated murder. He did not profit by it. God disciplined him.
But God knew his heart and He put away King David's sin.

Likewise with we Christians. None of us is perfect in physical behavior. And we will not profit by doing wrong. But our physical failings, etc, are not sin that can be charged against us. Our sin has been put away through Christ's sacrifice. Our imperfect physical body is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10, as long as we continue to believe on Jesus.

1Cor 6:18
Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in), but he who commits (spiritual) sexual immorality sins against his own body (Christ)

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God (1John 5:1) doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20

Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.

Christians are a new creation, in Christ. So if we believe on the commandment to believe on Jesus, then our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5) and we're walking according to the spirit.

And as there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5) then why would Christians then be judging themselves or any other Christian as a sinner? We should see Christ in ourselves and every other Christian. And as the scriptures above confirm, Christians cannot sin. To say otherwise would be like saying that there is sin in Christ..

All sin is lawlessness.

All sin has negative repercussions and will bring forth death.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. The deeds of the flesh cannot be spiritualized. They are only spiritualized to the extent that they are first conceived in the heart, then manifested physically.

The works of the flesh are the "works of the flesh" All sin has a spiritual effect. I think you are getting that concept mixed up. There is a reason Paul details the "works of the flesh", instead of just saying as you do, "that the works of the flesh are just unbelief". There is physical adultery (actually carrying out the spiritual adultery). Yes, when we sin, it is conceived in our hearts first, but all sin will bring forth death as James tells us.

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James is speaking to the "brethren". (James 1:2).

James 1 refers to the gospel/believing on Jesus. And remember that it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

And how does one mortify the deeds of the body (Rom 8:13)?
Rom 8:10
if Christ be in you, the body is dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

How did Paul mortify/put to death the deeds/lust for self-righteousness of his body?

Phil 3:4-10
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Paul here is speaking of fighting the good fight of faith, believing on Jesus, 1Tim 6:12-14.
So we see in scripture that it is spiritual.

1Cor 2:12-14 confirms it.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Bible is like the parables. If we read it like the natural man would, in physical terms, then we will misunderstand, just as Nicodemus did in thinking that born again meant for one to enter into his mothers womb again.
Unless we are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, then we will misunderstand. Christians, however, have the mind of Christ (1Cor 2:16) so when we're ready for it God will reveal His understanding to us.

Matt 13:10,11
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Gal_5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Paul, speaking to the Church).

Why are you judging one's righteousness by how well they behave physically?
What measure are you using in determining whether one is righteousness or not, based on their behavior?

Under the law perfect obedience was required, James 2:10. Just one offence made you guilty of all the law.
I suspect you do not use this measure, hence why I ask what measure do you base your judgement on.

For example you quote Gal 5 which lists actions that results in one being excluded from the kingdom of God.
I see these in spiritual terms, but you see them as physical behavior.

I'll ask a few questions to try to understand what you mean.

Regarding adultery. Mark 10:10,11 says that if one divorces their partner and marries another then such have committed adultery. Considering the prevalence of divorce and remarriage amongst Christians these days, are you saying any Christian who has divorced and remarried in excluded from God's kingdom?

Gal 5 speaks of drunkenness excluding one from God's kingdom. As you see this in physical terms I'm curious why physical drunkenness would be an issue worthy of mention in Gal 5 whilst the Sabbath keeping we see in the 10 commandments is not worthy of mentioning in Gal 5?
Why is physical drunkenness not listed in the 10 commandments, if it's as important as you suggest?

 

[Axehead]

Why are you judging one's righteousness by how well they behave physically?
What measure are you using in determining whether one is righteousness or not, based on their behavior?

Under the law perfect obedience was required, James 2:10. Just one offence made you guilty of all the law.
I suspect you do not use this measure, hence why I ask what measure do you base your judgement on.

For example you quote Gal 5 which lists actions that results in one being excluded from the kingdom of God.
I see these in spiritual terms, but you see them as physical behavior.

I'll ask a few questions to try to understand what you mean.

Regarding adultery. Mark 10:10,11 says that if one divorces their partner and marries another then such have committed adultery. Considering the prevalence of divorce and remarriage amongst Christians these days, are you saying any Christian who has divorced and remarried in excluded from God's kingdom?

Gal 5 speaks of drunkenness excluding one from God's kingdom. As you see this in physical terms I'm curious why physical drunkenness would be an issue worthy of mention in Gal 5 whilst the Sabbath keeping we see in the 10 commandments is not worthy of mentioning in Gal 5?
Why is physical drunkenness not listed in the 10 commandments, if it's as important as you suggest?

Final judgement belongs to God, but we are to discern who we "keep company with". And we don't judge them that are "without", but we do "judge" them that are "within".

1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

And, as a matter of fact we do judge (discern) them that are within.

1Co_5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co_5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co_5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co_5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co_5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


1Co_6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co_6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co_6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Co_6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

 

[haz]

Final judgement belongs to God, but we are to discern who we "keep company with". And we don't judge them that are "without", but we do "judge" them that are "within".

Yes, that's correct. We judge those that are within the church.
But again we differ in that you see things in physical terms, whereas I see things in spiritual terms (and remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14).

You quoted 1Cor 5:9-13.
Now consider the context of the verse you quoted.
1Cor 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!

You mistakenly see this as physical. Like Nicodemus who thought born again was to physically enter into his mother's womb again, you see 1Cor 5:1 as physical sexual immorality.

What sexual immorality does 1Cor 5:1 refer to?
It's spiritual.
Remember that Christians are married to Christ, Eph 5:32.
We are one spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17.

So 1Cor 5:1 refers to those within the church who are into spiritual sexual immorality with their father's wife.

Who is the father of these false brethren?

It's the devil, as Jesus described of the legalists in his day.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do

And who is the wife of this father, the devil?

It's Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

The devil wants us all to be seeking to establish our own righteousness by works of the law (sexual immorality with Hagar). And by luring people under the law the devil can accuse us of sin.
Rev 12:9-11
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Note also how 1Cor 5:7 confirms 1Cor 5:1.
1Cor 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened

What is leaven?

It's the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.
Matt 16:12
Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

The doctrine of legalists is righteousness by works of the law, which is described in scripture (spiritually speaking) as sexual immorality with Hagar. Thus we see 1Cor 5:1 confirming 1Cor 5:7.

Even just a little leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) will leaven the whole lump.
Gal 5:9
A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Thus we Christians are rightly called upon to judge those within the church whether they truly believe on Jesus or whether they follow a legalistsic doctrine that calls for righteousness by works of the law.
We Christians are to put out any such wicked person from amongst us (1Cor 5:13) who seeks to bring Christians back under the law for righteousness.

BTW, regarding Gal 5:19,20, can you answer the following questions to help me understand what measure you use to dtermine whether one is excluded from the kingdom of God.

Regarding adultery. Mark 10:10,11 says that if one divorces their partner and marries another then such have committed adultery. Considering the prevalence of divorce and remarriage amongst Christians these days, are you saying that any Christian who has divorced and remarried is excluded from God's kingdom?

Gal 5 speaks of drunkenness excluding one from God's kingdom. As you see this in physical terms I'm curious why physical drunkenness would be an issue worthy of mention in Gal 5 whilst the Sabbath keeping we see in the 10 commandments is not worthy of mentioning in Gal 5?
Why is physical drunkenness not listed in the 10 commandments, if it's as important as you suggest?

 

[Michael Snow]

"belief and obedience"--So many Christians stumble over that word AND. We have trouble with paradox and seem to prefer heresy or false teaching on many occasions.

For a look at what D. Elton Trueblood called "the holy conjunction" ("and") read the Introduction, here with the free "Look Inside" feature: http://www.amazon.com/Love-Prayer-Forgiveness-Basics-Heresies-ebook/dp/B00A4Z70K4/ref=asap_B001KMODGY?ie=UTF8