The cessation of miracles

[KUWN]

Chapter Heb 2: 3, 4In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given. First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased? It would be difficult to find a text in which this point would be explicit. Second, the NT apostles by and large expected the Lord’s return in their lifetime (cf. 1 Thess 4:15: “we who are alive, who are remaining until the coming of the Lord”). Hence, we should not expect them to make any statements regarding the cessation of gifts, since that would presuppose that they knew the Lord’s return would be delayed. In order to find such a statement, we would need to construct the following scenario: A member of an apostle’s band writes a letter after that apostle had died. Further, in the letter he finds some reason to explicitly mention something about sign gifts.

Such a scenario is difficult to imagine. Happily, the NT provides not only one, but two books that fit such a picture: Jude and Hebrews. And both address--to some degree at least--the issue of gifts and authority. Our purpose in this paper is to look more closely at one text, Hebrews 2:3-4.

Hebrews 2:3-4 is a text often put forth by cessationists that certain spiritual gifts have ceased. The text reads as follows: (3) pw'" hJmei'" ejkfeuxovmeqa thlikauvth" ajmelhvsante" swthriva" h{ti,” ajrchVn labou'sa lalei'sqai diaV tou' kurivou, uJpoV tw'n ajkousavntwn eij" hJma'" ejbebaiwvqh, (4) sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou' shmeivoi" te kaiV tevrasin kaiV poikivlai" dunavmesin kaiV pneuvmato" aJgivou merismoi'" kataV thVn aujtou' qevlhsin.(“[3] How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which was at first declared by the Lord, and was attested to us by those who heard him, [4] while God was also bearing them witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will”).

The argument that this text refers to the cessation of certain gifts is based on an inference in the text, viz., that since the first generation of Christians were explicitly eyewitnesses to certain sign gifts, the second generation of Christians was not. Usually books that address the issue of gifts don’t go further than this point. One has to wonder how valid it is, however.

Several things in the text need to be examined to see whether this text has any validity for the cessation of sign gifts. First, the genitive absolute in v 4 (sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou'/ “God bearing witness”) needs to be addressed. A couple of points should be mentioned.

(1) On a purely syntactical level, the genitive absolute does not of course relate to anything. But it is not like the vocative--that is, it is not extra-sentential. Rather, it is virtually a constructio ad sensum. That is, it is merely a Greek convention for expressing adverbial relations, usually of a temporal nature.

(2) Thus, it is neither helpful nor accurate to leave a genitive absolute dangling. The genitive absolute exists precisely because the subject of the genitive participle is different from the subject of the verb in the main clause. But the genitive absolute construction is still dependent on the time of the main verb.

(3) So to what is it semantically dependent? The genitive absolute is most naturally subordinated to the aorist ejbebaiwvqh (“was attested, confirmed”). To take it back to the future ejkfeuxovmeqa (“shall we escape”) in v 3 is stretching things, although the meaning would fit a continuationist position (“How shall we escape . . . while God bears witness with signs and wonders . . . ?”). Still, not only the distance, but the awkwardness of meaning poses a problem. That is, the conditional participle (ajmelhvsante") makes perfectly good sense (‘if we neglect. . .’) as the modifier of the future verb. But what is the relation of the genitive absolute construction to the verb? Over 90% of genitive absolute constructions are temporal (the next largest category is causal). If that is the case here, what is the meaning? Is it something like, “by what means can we possibly escape this great salvation while God is bearing witness to us”? The sense connection is lacking, no matter how you construe it. Take this a step further. It is even more improbable that the genitive absolute is subordinated to the conditional participle: “if we neglect . . . while God is bearing witness . . .” The force of the argument would have been considerably strengthened had the author said, “if we neglect so great a salvation which God bears witness to . . .” But that would require an adjectival participle--which, by definition, does not fit the genitive absolute construction. This leaves one of two options left: (a) the aorist indicative, ejbebaiwvqh, as the word to which the genitive absolute is semantically (not technically syntactically; see above) subordinate to. This makes perfectly good sense; besides, the structure fits most naturally: “it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God bore witness . . .” Or (b) the substantival aorist participle tw'n ajkousavntwn: the idea then would be that when eyewitnesses heard the message, God bore witness to them. This also makes good sense, and seems to be allowed for by the loose connection of the GA (genitive absolute construction) with the verbal element in the substantival participle. As such, it yields a nice text for cessationism. There are, however, three problems with it: (i) the aorist indicative is closer to the GA; (ii) GAs are normally semantically related to finite verbs (though they sometimes are attached to infinitives; I do not know of any examples off-hand in which they are attached to substantival participles, though this does not strike me as impossible); (iii) the overall meaning is more logically connected if the author is arguing that the confirmation was made by accompanying signs, rather than that the hearing was accompanied by such signs.

 

[KUWN]

What complicates the issue is the meaning of the aorist indicative. The verb ejbebaiwvqh of course can mean “was confirmed,” or even “was guaranteed” (cf. BAGD). If the latter, then it would make good sense to regard the GA as subordinate to tw'n ajkousavntwn. The sense would be that those who heard could guarantee that their message of the gospel was from God because he also bore them witness. This is in line with other texts that imply the same idea (cf. 1 John 1:1-4; 2 Pet 1:12-16; etc.). (2) The GA participle sunepimarturou'nto" means “bearing testimony together with.” The associative idea, coupled with “was guaranteed” for the aorist indicative and a causal GA (see above) renders the following: “it was guaranteed to us by those who heard him because God also bore them witness with signs and wonders . . .” That is, a guarantee could be made by the eyewitnesses because they knew that the message was from God since they experienced these miracles.

But what if the meaning of the aorist indicative verb is simply “confirm” and the GA is merely temporal (“while”)? This would seem to mean that the gospel was confirmed “to us” when God simultaneously bore witness by performing signs. If so, who are the “us”? Two possibilities: (a) either the author(s) as distinct from the Christians to whom he is writing, or (b) both the author(s) and the believers to whom he is writing. Although there are no structural clues for detecting shifts for exclusive/inclusive “we”--indeed, sometimes the shifts happen very quickly amd without warning--it does seem that in this context ‘to us’ would make better sense if the author included his audience. Otherwise, the audience becomes a third party that requires further confirmation. In v 3, the “we” of “How shall we escape” is probably picked up again by the “to us.” The whole argument is strengthened if this is the case. But if this is the case, then doesn’t it mean that the audience experienced the sign gifts: the gospel was confirmed “to us” (audience included) while God bore witness with signs. . . ?

Yes, this seems to be the case. Does this mean that the sign gifts continued to exist for second-generation Christians? Not exactly. Three careful distinctions need to be made: (1) God bore witness with someone (the sun-prefix on sunepimarturou'nto" implies this) “to us.” The only option is “those who heard”--thus, eyewitnesses. Thus, these believers were recipients or observers of such sign gifts; they were not performers of them. The eyewitnesses seem to be the only ones implied here who exercised such gifts. This, in itself, may well imply that the sign gifts lasted only through the first generation of Christians: once the eyewitnesses were dead, so were these gifts. (2) The aorist indicative ejbebaiwvqh loses much of its punch if the author intends to mean that these gifts continue.1 He so links the confirmation to the eyewitnesses--and the proof of such confirmation by the sign gifts--that to argue the continued use of such gifts seems to fly in the face of the whole context. If such gifts continued, the author missed a great opportunity to seal his argument against defection. He could have simply said: “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which was . . . confirmed to us by those who heard and is still confirmed among us while God bears witness with signs . . .” By way of contrast, note Gal 3:5 (written when the miraculous was still taking place; two present participles are used): “Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?” (RSV) This contrast is significant: The author of Hebrews, who is so articulate a defender of his position, lost a perfect opportunity to remind his audience of the reality of their salvation by not mentioning the current manifestation of the sign gifts. That is, unless such were no longer taking place. Though an argument from silence, I think the silence is fairly deafening. The sign gifts seem to be on their way out. (3) But what about this confirmation “to us”--second-generation Christians? I take it that Hebrews was written in the mid 60s (shortly after Paul had died), but that it was written to a long-established Jewish church which was waffling in their faith. If so, then we would expect some of the first-generation believers to have had some contact with them. (Good grief--first-generation folks even have contact with third generation folks at times!) There is no question that some of these folks had witnessed such miracles. There is a rather large question, however, as to whether they had performed them themselves. One simply can’t find support for such a view in Hebrew 2:1-4.

All in all, Hebrews 2:3-4 seems to involve some solid inferences that the sign gifts had for the most part ceased.2 Further, it offers equally inferential evidence of the purpose of the sign gifts: to confirm that God was doing something new. The whole argument of Hebrews rests on this assumption: there is a new and final revelation in Jesus Christ (cf. 1:1-2). He is the one to whom the whole OT points; he is the one who is superior to the Aaronic priesthood, to prophets, and to angels. He is indeed God in the flesh. Is it not remarkable that in this exquisitely argued epistle, the argument turns on Scripture over against experience? The strongest appeal the author makes to the audience’s experience is to what they were witnesses to in the past. If the sign gifts continued, shouldn’t we expect this author (like Paul in Gal 3:5) to have employed such an argument?

I do not pretend to think that this sole text solves the problem of the duration of the sign gifts. But whatever one’s views of such gifts, this passage needs to be wrestled with.

---

​

1 The aorist indicative means “it happened,” but we cannot legitimately extrapolate from that a meaning, “and it doesn’t happen now.” The aorist can’t be used to state a negative in the present time. However, the context often is sufficiently clear that one can extrapolate from the author’s overall meaning a once-for-all idea. Does not Paul say “Christ died for our sins”? Does not the author of Hebrews argue that “God has spoken to us in Son in these last days”? In such instances the aorist is used, but by itself a once-for-all idea cannot be meant. Nevertheless, we are on sure ground to argue that the author can use the aorist when he means a once-for-all idea. The tense is well-suited for such, even though corroborative data need to be supplied to see it.

2 To be sure, not all of them had yet: John was still to write his Revelation of Jesus Christ. (But since the author of Hebrews was most likely not from John’s circle of influence, for all practical purposes the gift of prophecy might even be viewed as dead as far as he was concerned.) At the same time, “signs and wonders and various miracles” is the normative description of healing and miraculous deeds, not prophetic words.

 

[marks]

Good analysis!

I've understood that the signs and wonders were primarily for the Jews, who seek after a sign, and when Israel completed it's formal rejection of Jesus as Messiah (Acts 28), this was the end of the signs and wonders. I understand that ministry gifts of the spirit continue to today.

Much love!

 

[KUWN]

Good analysis!

I've understood that the signs and wonders were primarily for the Jews, who seek after a sign, and when Israel completed it's formal rejection of Jesus as Messiah (Acts 28), this was the end of the signs and wonders. I understand that ministry gifts of the spirit continue to today.

Much love!

I agree. In fact, 1 Cor 14.22 specifically says the signs are for the unbeliever, not the believer. As Acts 2 showed, those who spoke in a foreign language were for evangelism.

 

[Rockerduck]

Although the office of Apostle has ended. The other four are still in effect. Miracles and healings are still happening.

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

 

[AngelicArcher]

Miracles from God have not ceased.

A miracle is “God working in the world without using means to bring about the results He wishes.”​

 

[Aunty Jane]

Although the office of Apostle has ended. The other four are still in effect. Miracles and healings are still happening

There is a reason to believe that they aren’t still happening…..

When Jesus comes to judge the world what do those whom he rejects as belonging to him, say by way of offering excuses for their failure to “do the will“ of Jesus‘ Father?…..

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (ESV)

Were the “mighty works” performed in Jesus name, valid? When he says “I NEVER knew you”…what does “NEVER” mean? Calling Jesus your “Lord” rings hollow if you are relying on those things to convict you.

Miracles performed in the first century were the means that God used to show the disobedient Jews that their worship was no longer supported by him. Those Jewish leaders were livid that they could not outdo him in that regard, so they sought to detract from those “mighty works” by alleging that he was using the devil’s power.

And ask yourself…….if God still performed genuine miracles today, whilst others were performing them without God’s sanction, then how confusing would that be to people? Who would you believe?….but if God withdrew the miracles once Christianity had become firmly established, then it would become obvious that those who performed them were not using the power that God provided to Christ and his first disciples.

It would then be easy to spot the fakes….or those misled by appreances.

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Back then he did as it was needed…but today, as Paul indicated in 1 Cor 13:8-13…..

”But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.”

How were Christians to be identified after the gifts ceased? Christians had to ‘grow up’ and put away the ‘traits of a child’. Christian maturity now involved the three important traits that they would display….”faith…hope …and love”….not miracles.

 

[Rockerduck]

There is a reason to believe that they aren’t still happening…..

When Jesus comes to judge the world what do those whom he rejects as belonging to him, say by way of offering excuses for their failure to “do the will“ of Jesus‘ Father?…..

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (ESV)

Were the “mighty works” performed in Jesus name, valid? When he says “I NEVER knew you”…what does “NEVER” mean? Calling Jesus your “Lord” rings hollow if you are relying on those things to convict you.

Miracles performed in the first century were the means that God used to show the disobedient Jews that their worship was no longer supported by him. Those Jewish leaders were livid that they could not outdo him in that regard, so they sought to detract from those “mighty works” by alleging that he was using the devil’s power.

And ask yourself…….if God still performed genuine miracles today, whilst others were performing them without God’s sanction, then how confusing would that be to people? Who would you believe?….but if God withdrew the miracles once Christianity had become firmly established, then it would become obvious that those who performed them were not using the power that God provided to Christ and his first disciples.

It would then be easy to spot the fakes….or those misled by appreances.

Back then he did as it was needed…but today, as Paul indicated in 1 Cor 13:8-13…..

”But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.”

How were Christians to be identified after the gifts ceased? Christians had to ‘grow up’ and put away the ‘traits of a child’. Christian maturity now involved the three important traits that they would display….”faith…hope …and love”….not miracles.

I have visions and dreams, I've seen and talked to Jesus. I've been told the future. I have the gift of prophesy. I've healed multiple people from strokes, back pains, kidney problems, and neck problems. I also have the gift of teacher and preacher. Believe what you want.

 

[KUWN]

Although the office of Apostle has ended. The other four are still in effect. Miracles and healings are still happening.

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

It would help if you could support your dogmatic conclusions. Making conclusions without significant biblical support is useless. It is just your random opinion. Why has the office of Apostle ended? Why are miracles still around? Try to support your view that healings are still happening. Why did they cease?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have visions and dreams, I've seen and talked to Jesus. I've been told the future. I have the gift of prophesy. I've healed multiple people from strokes, back pains, kidney problems, and neck problems. I also have the gift of teacher and preacher. Believe what you want.

We can all “believe what we want”…..and this is how God tests us out. I do not doubt your sincerity, but I do doubt the source of these ‘gifts’, because it seems that these are the very things that confirm your belief that they are from God…..but, that is what those who are rejected by Christ will say (Matt 7:21-23)……what will he say to you? Will you stutter in disbelief and try to justify your “gifts” as though Jesus doesn’t know where they came from?

Do you really think that God chose you to carry them on, when Paul said they had to cease and gave the compelling reason why?
A little Bible study would be better than giving people a false impression about what true Christianity is all about. All the gifts were a foregleam of what is to come under the rule of God’s Kingdom....confirming what will be taking place when Christ rules as King…..when God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven.”

All these things you mentioned are what satan can use to deceive those who aren’t really listening to Jesus or his apostles….Paul said that the gifts would cease for a very good reason….those attracted by the miracles are spiritual babies and those who perform them are not allowing those ones to grow up and concentrate on the more important aspects of what it means to call Jesus their “Lord”.

Satan knows how to press the emotional buttons and lure spiritually weak people into his trap. Only spiritual babes will remain in that trap, dazzled by the “miracles”. A good test is raising someone from the dead…..satan can’t replicate that one.…and Lazarus had been dead for 4 days. (John 11:11-14)

What you have mentioned are all satan’s tried and tested tricks, because he is a mimic….it’s false religion masquerading as “Christianity”. Jesus told us that the devil would do this…it’s the difference between the “wheat and the weeds”.….they are nothing alike in this “time of the end”….no miracles required.

 

[talons]

First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased?

I understand their point completely .

I was never given the chance to proclaim cessation of signs and miracles as a Christian .

When this rock and roll all night and party every day guy took Jesus as my savior before I left the spot where I was born again I was given the gift of tongues , much to my surprise and shock . I am so blessed .

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are where they have always been , just pray and ask God if you so desire them .

 

[Hidden In Him]

hapter Heb 2: 3, 4In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given. First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased? It would be difficult to find a text in which this point would be explicit. Second, the NT apostles by and large expected the Lord’s return in their lifetime (cf. 1 Thess 4:15: “we who are alive, who are remaining until the coming of the Lord”). Hence, we should not expect them to make any statements regarding the cessation of gifts, since that would presuppose that they knew the Lord’s return would be delayed.

Greeting, KUWN.

The above argument fails in this, however: The early church continued to move in the gifts even after it became apparent that the Lord was NOT coming in their lifetimes. Jerusalem fell, and yet He did not return. But they continued on, with no statements from the early church that they would cease. The only statements that they made in that regard were by the middle of the 3rd century, when it was obvious they were beginning to cease, and likely because the church was no longer praying as it had.

I think your first argument is proof they were never intended to cease. If God had intended them to cease he would have told someone they were going to, and then they would have. But they didn't until the church was finally falling into spiritual lethargy, and even then they have never ceased entirely to this day.

Blessings,
- H

 

[AngelicArcher]

I have visions and dreams, I've seen and talked to Jesus. I've been told the future. I have the gift of prophesy. I've healed multiple people from strokes, back pains, kidney problems, and neck problems. I also have the gift of teacher and preacher. Believe what you want.

I believe you.

I find it useful in my walk to never believe those who insist through their mortal bias they know God will not do something. Like, work miracles.

Who are they trying to convince? God's own. In a concerted yet feeble attempt to spread seeds so to germinate doubt in God's power.

I know someone who was on deaths door. Not expected to survive the night. A prayer circle formed around his bed. Members of his church. At the church people gathered and prayed through the night.

The next morning he awoke with a ravenous appetite. And the next day after that he went back to work.

Those who insist God won't,don't know our God.

Don't believe them. Leave them to worship their god of can't.

 

[AngelicArcher]

 

[AngelicArcher]

Our God is an awesome God. Never let anyone use his words to lead you from knowing that in your heart and soul.

They will answer to God for every word.
We,You, his faithful, will be at peace for eternity in The Word.
Hold on to that. Because the enemy knows it too.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Don’t we have to ask why God allows other people to die in the same kind of crashes…..? Where is your awesome God then, especially if they are Christians….? And especially if they are young children?

Is he up there pointing the fickle finger of fate, or playing Russian Roulette with people’s lives?
These supposed “miracles“ don’t really have God in them….how could they?
Even the prayer vigils around the bed of dying people……most don’t result in a cure.

My own husband was very ill in hospital with pneumonia some years back, not expected to live through the night, but woke up in the wee small hours when a nurse checked in on him and he started talking to her. He had been unconscious. Sometimes things happen that we don’t expect…..you can’t call them miracles unless someone performs them…as Jesus and his apostles did…..but Paul stated that the gifts would cease…..they had fulfilled their purpose and it was time to “walk by faith and not by sight”. (2 Cor 5:7)
The ability to pass on the gifts, died with the apostles. In the post apostolic period the gifts passed away into history, awaiting the time when God’s Kingdom rules this earth, and they are restored.

Only spiritual babes would be attracted to miracles….true Christians needed to press on to maturity.

 

[Rockerduck]

Don’t we have to ask why God allows other people to die in the same kind of crashes…..? Where is your awesome God then, especially if they are Christians….? And especially if they are young children?

Is he up there pointing the fickle finger of fate, or playing Russian Roulette with people’s lives?
These supposed “miracles“ don’t really have God in them….how could they?
Even the prayer vigils around the bed of dying people……most don’t result in a cure.

My own husband was very ill in hospital with pneumonia some years back, not expected to live through the night, but woke up in the wee small hours when a nurse checked in on him and he started talking to her. He had been unconscious. Sometimes things happen that we don’t expect…..you can’t call them miracles unless someone performs them…as Jesus and his apostles did…..but Paul stated that the gifts would cease…..they had fulfilled their purpose and it was time to “walk by faith and not by sight”. (2 Cor 5:7)
The ability to pass on the gifts, died with the apostles. In the post apostolic period the gifts passed away into history, awaiting the time when God’s Kingdom rules this earth, and they are restored.

Only spiritual babes would be attracted to miracles….true Christians needed to press on to maturity.

Nobody prayed for your husband. A nurse or doctor you didn't know about? You seem cynical that God still gives the gifts and look for ways to not believe it. Don't forget common Grace. You can pray for rain and the atheist next door gets rain too. Why deny it. If you have never heard the Holy Spirit speak to you, I guess you don't believe anyone hears the Holy Spirit speak to them. That's narrow thinking. Why the dig as "Spiritual babes". You are the problem that churches, any church, stifle the gifts. People won't admit they hear the Holy Spirit speak for fear of ridicule from someone like you.

 

[KUWN]

Greeting, KUWN.

The above argument fails in this, however: The early church continued to move in the gifts even after it became apparent that the Lord was NOT coming in their lifetimes. Jerusalem fell, and yet He did not return. But they continued on, with no statements from the early church that they would cease. The only statements that they made in that regard were by the middle of the 3rd century, when it was obvious they were beginning to cease, and likely because the church was no longer praying as it had.

I think your first argument is proof they were never intended to cease. If God had intended them to cease he would have told someone they were going to, and then they would have. But they didn't until the church was finally falling into spiritual lethargy, and even then they have never ceased entirely to this day.

Blessings,
- H

You are going to need proof of these speculations. Paul assumed that the Rapture was going to happen in his lifetime (and we who remain will be caught up....). Note that Paul included himself among those who were going to see the Rapture. The early church had no more knowledge of WHEN Christ was going to come than we do today.

But also, you need to wrestle with Heb 2:3,4 (explain it in such a way to show your position is right); your post does not address my post. It is irrefutable, especially the cessation of miracles, by an examination of the Greek text (as shown above). Remember in Paul' life, he was unable to heal Trophimus. Erastus stayed in the city of Corinth and I left Trophimus in the city of Miletus because he was sick (Paul's healing power had ceased. 2 Tim 4.20). I think it can be supported that miracles and other miraculous gifts ceased with the death of Apostle John.

You wrote: because the church was no longer praying as it had. This is the definition of speculation. You often mention biblical conclusions with little to no support. That is a very dangerous position to hold.

Once again you wrote: But they didn't until the church was finally falling into spiritual lethargy, and even then they have never ceased entirely to this day.
Here is another speculative statement. Just a statement without any support. I wish you would provide justification for your belief.

Finally, you argued: If God had intended them to cease he would have told someone they were going to...
well, what do you think the article you are responding to is saying. Do you not see cessation in these verses?

 

[Rockerduck]

You are going to need proof of these speculations. Paul assumed that the Rapture was going to happen in his lifetime (and we who remain will be caught up....). Note that Paul included himself among those who were going to see the Rapture. The early church had no more knowledge of WHEN Christ was going to come than we do today.

But also, you need to wrestle with Heb 2:3,4 (explain it in such a way to show your position is right); your post does not address my post. It is irrefutable, especially the cessation of miracles, by an examination of the Greek text (as shown above). Remember in Paul' life, he was unable to heal Trophimus. Erastus stayed in the city of Corinth and I left Trophimus in the city of Miletus because he was sick (Paul's healing power had ceased. 2 Tim 4.20). I think it can be supported that miracles and other miraculous gifts ceased with the death of Apostle John.

You wrote: because the church was no longer praying as it had. This is the definition of speculation. You often mention biblical conclusions with little to no support. That is a very dangerous position to hold.

Once again you wrote: But they didn't until the church was finally falling into spiritual lethargy, and even then they have never ceased entirely to this day.
Here is another speculative statement. Just a statement without any support. I wish you would provide justification for your belief.

Finally, you argued: If God had intended them to cease he would have told someone they were going to...
well, what do you think the article you are responding to is saying. Do you not see cessation in these verses?

The gifts the spirit have never ceased. Maybe you should study. Look up the higher Life movement. The Holiness movement. Pentacostal movement. In the 1800's revival, God poured out His Spirit in a mighty way. Tongue speaking is well documented, prophecies, healings. This was during the great awakening, when photography and movies were invented. Lots of proof now.

 

[Rockerduck]

Concerning your statement above (I have visions and dreams, I've seen and talked to Jesus. I've been told the future. I have the gift of prophesy. I've healed multiple people from strokes, back pains, kidney problems, and neck problems. I also have the gift of teacher and preacher. Believe what you want.)

I can assure you that you are out of line because you contradict the fundamental clarity of Scripture. Look at Heb 1:1, 2. To have a vision after we are told they have ceased and God has finally stop speaking to us via prophets, dreams, and visions (these dreams and visions you are having are likely Demonic).

You lack the faith to be healed as Paul and Jesus said. You do not have the Holy Spirit talk to you, so you believe nobody does. Narrow thinking there. You dismiss others because of your lack of gifts from God, therefore nobody has gifts. Maybe your unbelief is why. You are saying it's impossible, but Jesus says nothing is impossible for God. Jesus also said to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. The Holy Spirit talks to me, so you are calling the Holy Spirit likely demonic. you might talk to Jesus about that.