The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.
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Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
OK... last comment....
He was responding to me.
He said that until He died and was resurrected and is sitting in heaven that the title Christ Jesus is inappropriate when talking about Jesus.
I pointed out that once he was Christ Jesus, it would be wrong to refer to him as simply Jesus.
I used the example that it would be equally wrong to refer to President Donald Trump as simply Donald now that he was once an active President. Even those close to Him ... except family.. refer to him as Mr President.
If I am wrong, God will take me to task over it... but I am done explaining!!!!!!!
Not a good example. Trump did not change from a man to the resurrected Lord Christ. But then again, if you believe Jesus was born the Lord Christ because he was already a God baby. Then that's why you see it that way.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Yep...
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”
Are are these people God's too...
Joshua is a given name derived from the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Modern: Yəhōšūaʿ, Tiberian: Yŏhōšūaʿ),[5] prominently belonging to Joshua, an early Hebrew leader of the Exodus period who has a major role in several books of the Bible. The name was a common alternative form of the name יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšūaʿ) which corresponds to the Greek spelling Ἰησοῦς (Iesous), from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.[6][7
Daniel 13
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
Susanna’s Beauty Attracts Two Elders
13 [a]There was a man living in Babylon whose name was Jo′akim. 2 And he took a wife named Susanna, the daughter of Hilki′ah, a very beautiful woman and one who feared the Lord. 3 Her parents were righteous, and had taught their daughter according to the law of Moses. 4 Jo′akim was very rich, and had a spacious garden adjoining his house; and the Jews used to come to him because he was the most honored of them all.5 In that year two elders from the people were appointed as judges. Concerning them the Lord had said: “Iniquity came forth from Babylon, from elders who were judges, who were supposed to govern the people.” 6 These men were frequently at Jo′akim’s house, and all who had suits at law came to them.
7 When the people departed at noon, Susanna would go into her husband’s garden to walk. 8 The two elders used to see her every day, going in and walking about, and they began to desire her. 9 And they perverted their minds and turned away their eyes from looking to Heaven or remembering righteous judgments. 10 Both were overwhelmed with passion for her, but they did not tell each other of their distress, 11 for they were ashamed to disclose their lustful desire to possess her. 12 And they watched eagerly, day after day, to see her.
13 They said to each other, “Let us go home, for it is mealtime.” 14 And when they went out, they parted from each other. But turning back, they met again; and when each pressed the other for the reason, they confessed their lust. And then together they arranged for a time when they could find her alone.
The Elders Attempt to Seduce Susanna
15 Once, while they were watching for an opportune day, she went in as before with only two maids, and wished to bathe in the garden, for it was very hot. 16 And no one was there except the two elders, who had hid themselves and were watching her. 17 She said to her maids, “Bring me oil and ointments, and shut the garden doors so that I may bathe.” 18 They did as she said, shut the garden doors, and went out by the side doors to bring what they had been commanded; and they did not see the elders, because they were hidden.19 When the maids had gone out, the two elders rose and ran to her, and said: 20 “Look, the garden doors are shut, no one sees us, and we are in love with you; so give your consent, and lie with us. 21 If you refuse, we will testify against you that a young man was with you, and this was why you sent your maids away.”
22 Susanna sighed deeply, and said, “I am hemmed in on every side. For if I do this thing, it is death for me; and if I do not, I shall not escape your hands. 23 I choose not to do it and to fall into your hands, rather than to sin in the sight of the Lord.”
24 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and the two elders shouted against her. 25 And one of them ran and opened the garden doors. 26 When the household servants heard the shouting in the garden, they rushed in at the side door to see what had happened to her. 27 And when the elders told their tale, the servants were greatly ashamed, for nothing like this had ever been said about Susanna.
The Elders Testify against Susanna
28 The next day, when the people gathered at the house of her husband Jo′akim, the two elders came, full of their wicked plot to have Susanna put to death. 29 They said before the people, “Send for Susanna, the daughter of Hilki′ah, who is the wife of Jo′akim.” 30 So they sent for her. And she came, with her parents, her children, and all her kindred.31 Now Susanna was a woman of great refinement, and beautiful in appearance. 32 As she was veiled, the wicked men ordered her to be unveiled, that they might feed upon her beauty. 33 But her family and friends and all who saw her wept.
34 Then the two elders stood up in the midst of the people, and laid their hands upon her head. 35 And she, weeping, looked up toward heaven, for her heart trusted in the Lord. 36 The elders said, “As we were walking in the garden alone, this woman came in with two maids, shut the garden doors, and dismissed the maids. 37 Then a young man, who had been hidden, came to her and lay with her. 38 We were in a corner of the garden, and when we saw this wickedness we ran to them. 39 We saw them embracing, but we could not hold the man, for he was too strong for us, and he opened the doors and dashed out. 40 So we seized this woman and asked her who the young man was, but she would not tell us. These things we testify.”
41 The assembly believed them, because they were elders of the people and judges; and they condemned her to death.
42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said, “O eternal God, who dost discern what is secret, who art aware of all things before they come to be, 43 thou knowest that these men have borne false witness against me. And now I am to die! Yet I have done none of the things that they have wickedly invented against me!”
44 The Lord heard her cry. 45 And as she was being led away to be put to death, God aroused the holy spirit of a young lad named Daniel; 46 and he cried with a loud voice, “I am innocent of the blood of this woman.”
Daniel Rescues Susanna
47 All the people turned to him, and said, “What is this that you have said?” 48 Taking his stand in the midst of them, he said, “Are you such fools, you sons of Israel? Have you condemned a daughter of Israel without examination and without learning the facts? 49 Return to the place of judgment. For these men have borne false witness against her.”50 Then all the people returned in haste. And the elders said to him, “Come, sit among us and inform us, for God has given you that right.” 51 And Daniel said to them, “Separate them far from each other, and I will examine them.”
52 When they were separated from each other, he summoned one of them and said to him, “You old relic of wicked days, your sins have now come home, which you have committed in the past, 53 pronouncing unjust judgments, condemning the innocent and letting the guilty go free, though the Lord said, ‘Do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.’ 54 Now then, if you really saw her, tell me this: Under what tree did you see them being intimate with each other?” He answered, “Under a mastic tree.”[b] 55 And Daniel said, “Very well! You have lied against your own head, for the angel of God has received the sentence from God and will immediately cut[c] you in two.”
56 Then he put him aside, and commanded them to bring the other. And he said to him, “You offspring of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust has perverted your heart. 57 This is how you both have been dealing with the daughters of Israel, and they were intimate with you through fear; but a daughter of Judah would not endure your wickedness. 58 Now then, tell me: Under what tree did you catch them being intimate with each other?” He answered, “Under an evergreen oak.”[d] 59 And Daniel said to him, “Very well! You also have lied against your own head, for the angel of God is waiting with his sword to saw[e] you in two, that he may destroy you both.”
60 Then all the assembly shouted loudly and blessed God, who saves those who hope in him. 61 And they rose against the two elders, for out of their own mouths Daniel had convicted them of bearing false witness; 62 and they did to them as they had wickedly planned to do to their neighbor; acting in accordance with the law of Moses, they put them to death. Thus innocent blood was saved that day.
63 And Hilki′ah and his wife praised God for their daughter Susanna, and so did Jo′akim her husband and all her kindred, because nothing shameful was found in her. 64 And from that day onward Daniel had a great reputation among the people.
Footnotes
- 13.1 The story of Susanna, here translated from the Greek of Theodotion, is accepted by the Catholic Church as canonical Scripture and placed among the deuterocanonical writings. It is prefixed to the book of Daniel in the Septuagint Greek, but in the Vulgate Latin it is placed here as chapter 13.
- Daniel 13:54 The Greek words for mastic tree and cut are so similar that the use of cut is ironic wordplay
- Daniel 13:55 The Greek words for mastic tree and cut are so similar that the use of cut is ironic wordplay
- Daniel 13:58 The Greek words for evergreen oak and saw are so similar that the use of saw is ironic wordplay
- Daniel 13:59 The Greek words for evergreen oak and saw are so similar that the use of saw is ironic wordplay
I have a question.
Why would any woman who had given birth to Christ Jesus no longer be holy if she followed through with her commitment to her marriage?
Why does that detract from her holy requirements to have Jesus?
Once he is born, why would she need to be remain holy... which people seem to think means without physical relations with her husband... unless it was because she would have heavenly duties that normal people will never attain..... after all... Mathew never told us that.... and we all agree the New Testament books are complete.
Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [s]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together
(They were betrothed but had not been together yet when she was found pregnant.)
she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned [t]to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for [u]the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
(So an angel appeared to Joseph telling him "do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; " Interesting...
that it did not say he would be living with her as brother and sister... that it was his name that ws needed to keep the baby legitimate)
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins.”
22 Now all this [x]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”
(Yes, she was a virgin untouched by any man until Jesus was born..... we know that.)
24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
So I repeat... If they had done what they were told until after Jesus was born, why if she had consumated the marriage with Joseph after her days of purification...
BTW... If she was holy ... and such... why did she need purified after the birth?
.... why was it necessary for her to remain untouched the rest of her life?
WE ARE TOLD... all the way back in
Genesis 2....For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matt 19:5 ...and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ‘?
Mark 10: 6-8 ... “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."
Eph 5:31 ... FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
4 times I readily find a man and wife become one flesh... Yet Joseph is told to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife...
So... how is it that chastity is the "requisite" for being holy when over the years... a long while back admittedly...
there were married Popes.... INCLUDING ST. PETER.
Popes Who Were Married | Articles
There existed Bishops, priest and even Popes who were married before receiving the mantle of Church leadership.catholicsay.com
1. St Peter
Saint Peter (Simon Peter), whose mother-in-law is mentioned in the Gospel verses Matthew 8:14–15, Luke 4:38, Mark 1:29–31 and who was healed by Jesus at her home in Capernaum. This clearly depicts Peter as a married man, and 1 Cor. 9:5 suggests Peter’s wife accompanied him on his mission. Clement of Alexandria notes that “Peter and Philip begat children” and writes: “When the blessed Peter saw his own wife led out to die, he rejoiced because of her summons and her return home, and called to her very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, and saying, ‘Remember the Lord.’ Such was the marriage of the blessed, and their perfect disposition toward those dearest to them.” Later legends, dating from the 6th century onwards, suggested that Peter had a daughter – identified as Saint Petronilla. This, however, is likely to be a result of the similarity of their names.
2. Pope St. Hormisdas
He was born at Frosinone, Campagna di Roma, Italy. Before becoming a Roman deacon, Hormisdas was married, and his son would in turn become Pope under the name of Silverius. During the Laurentian schism, Hormisdas was one of the most prominent clerical partisans of Pope Symmachus. He was notary at the synod held at St. Peter’s in 502. Two letters of Magnus Felix Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, survive addressed to him, written when the latter tried to regain horses and money he had lent the Pope.
3. Pope Adrian II
After the death of St. Nicholas I, the Roman clergy and people elected, much against his will, the venerable Cardinal Adrian, universally beloved for his charity and amiability, descended from a Roman family which had already given two pontiffs to the Church, Stephen III and Sergius II. Adrian was now seventy-five years old, and twice before had refused the dignity. He had been married before taking orders, and his old age was saddened by a domestic tragedy. As pope, he followed closely in the footsteps of his energetic predecessor. He strove to maintain peace among the greedy and incompetent descendants of Charlemagne.
4. Pope John XVII
Pope John XVII was Pope for about seven months from 16 May to 6 November 1003.
Before entering the priesthood, Sicco had been married and had three sons who also entered Holy Orders:
He died on 6 November 1003 and was buried in the Lateran Basilica between the two doors of the principal facade. According to John the Deacon, his epitaph began by stating that “here is the tomb of the supreme John, who is said to be Pope, for so he was called.”
- John, Bishop of Praeneste
- Peter, a Deacon
- Andrew, a Secundicerius
5. Pope Clement VI
Born at Saint-Gilles on the Rhone, 23 November, year unknown; elected at Perugia 5 February, 1265; d. at Viterbo, 29 November, 1268. After the death of Urban IV (2 October, 1264), the cardinals, assembled in conclave at Perugia, discussed for four months the momentous question whether the Church should continue the war to the end against the House of Hohenstaufen by calling in Charles of Anjou, the youngest brother of St. Louis of France, or find some other means of securing the independence of the papacy. No other solution offering itself, the only possible course was to unite upon the Cardinal-Bishop of Sabina, by birth a Frenchman and a subject of Charles. Guido Le Gros was of noble extraction.
When his mother died, his father, the knight Foulquois, entered a Carthusian monastery where he ended a saintly life. Guido married, and for a short time wielded the spear and the sword. Then devoting himself to the study of law under the able direction of the famous Durandus, he gained a national reputation as an advocate. St. Louis, who entertained a great respect and affection for him, took him into his cabinet and made him one of his trusted councillors. His wife died, leaving him two daughters, whereupon he imitated his father to the extent that he gave up worldly concerns and took Holy orders.
.. His first act was to forbid any of his relatives to come to the Curia, or to attempt to derive any sort of temporal advantage from his elevation. Suitors for the hands of his daughters were admonished that their prospective brides were “children not of the pope, but of Guido Grossus”, and that their dowers should be extremely modest. The two ladies later preferred the seclusion of the convent.
CONCLUSION... LOOKS LIKE THE HOLY SEES WERE NOT NECESSARILY SO HOLY AFTER ALL.
Hebrews 13:4
King James Version
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
I personally believe Mary was a pure heart woman with good intentions. She would have to be to keep Jesus in check. But sinless. Unlikely. Its possible she was almost sinless at one point but started sinning later in life. Its possible to live some days where we do not sin at all. I have done it. But I also believe that God the Father, being born by the Holy Spirit and knowing Himself to be eternal with the Father at an extremely early age would of motivated Jesus to stay pure. People who own something tend not to play around with something valuable. We are valuable to Jesus as God as humans.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
What?
But I also believe that God the Father, being born by the Holy Spirit and knowing Himself to be eternal with the Father at an extremely early age would of motivated Jesus to stay pure.
Who said anything about Jesus not being pure?
I would comment on this if I understood what you said.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
IX. Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)
Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.
Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”
1 Cor. 15:22 – in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).
Rom. 5:12 – Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).
Rom. 5:19 – here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.
Rom. 3:10-11 – Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.
Psalm 14 – this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.
Psalm 53:1-3 – “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”
Luke 18:19 – Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.
Rom. 9:11 – God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.
Luke 1:47 – Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.
Luke 1:48 – Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Misunderstanding? Or misinterpretation based on a false doctrine?
If Mary was spared inherited sin, which affected ALL of Adam’s descendants, why was Mary required to make a sin offering after Jesus’ birth?
Lev 12:6-8….
“When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are complete, she shall bring a year-old lamb as a burnt offering and a pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering to the priest at the entrance to the meeting tent. He shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her. She shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for a woman who has borne a male or female child. If she cannot afford to offer a lamb, she shall offer two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for her and she shall be clean.” (NCB)
Where does it say that Mary was exempt from this requirenment?
Luke 2:22-24, 39-40….
“When the days for their purification were completed according to the Law of Moses, they brought the child up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, as it is prescribed in the Law of the Lord: “Every firstborn male shall be consecrated to the Lord,” and to offer a sacrifice in accordance with what is stated in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.” . . . . . When they had fulfilled everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. The child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom, and God’s favor was upon him.” (NCB)
They made the offering of the poor….. “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.” There was no exemption for Mary. Read Luke ch2 and see what Simeon said regarding the child as the holy spirit directed him….he had nothing to say to exempt Mary from her sin offering.
Sin is the only cause of death in the human race…..whoever has died, did so from the results of sin….not just because of their actions, but because of the “sin” every single one of us has inherited from Adam. (Rom 5:12) It is in our DNA.
David was aware of this…..
“Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5)
Where does it ever say that Mary was exempt? Mary’s death is not mentioned in the Bible, let alone her supposed bodily assumption. Talk about “going beyond what is written”!
“Sin” is an archery term which means “to miss the mark”…so every single human born from Adam misses the mark of his original perfection of mind, body and spirit. If Adam and his wife had never abused their free will and committed sin, they never would have died because the means to go on living forever, was there in the garden in “the tree of life”. (Gen 3:22-24) Access to that tree was denied only after they sinned.
No, Jesus was not an exception to that rule because he did not descend from Adam….Mary did.
She came from her sinful forefather just the same as everyone else. There is not a single mention of her having been an exception to that rule because Jesus did not carry her DNA….he was a product of holy spirit.….not subject to sin. That had nothing to do with Mary. She was simply the vehicle through whom Jesus attained his human life. God chose the vehicle and her circumstances and faith made her an ideal choice. She would make a wonderful mother for Jesus as would Joseph as the earthly father he grew up with. They had a large family with Jesus having at least 6 siblings….Jews saw children as a gift from God, and so God gifted Jesus with brothers and sisters. They were married and blessed. There was no perpetual virginity……
What mention is made of Mary before the conception of Jesus? None.
Where does it say that Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven?
The Bible clearly states than no one went to heaven before Jesus, who is called by Paul “the firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18) which means that he was the first human to be resurrected to heaven….he was not the first human to be resurrected though, as many had been raised before he died…….and John 3:13 also confirms this…
“No one has gone up to heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (NCB)
Enoch was spared a horrible death by his enemies, but he did not go to heaven. It simply says that “God took him”….he ended his life peacefully rather than allow evil men to do away with him violently.
Elijah was transferred in a windstorm in spectacular fashion but he did not die, as years later, he wrote a letter to King Jehoram, of Judah. (2 Chron 21:12-15)
“Heaven“ in his case cannot refer to where God resides because scripture contradicts that, so what did it mean? The word used there is “lāqaḥ” and it means….”visible heavens, sky”. So Elijah did not die and go to heaven any more that Enoch did.
No one twists scripture more than those who want it to say what it never did.
A righteous person is not sinless otherwise Jesus would not have come to save them. He did not die for the wicked.
This word in both Hebrew and Greek has a variety of meanings, but taken in the way you have assumed here gives it the same meaning regardless of context. Who can be “good” on the same level as Jehovah? Not even Jesus, as he stated. No human can achieve that level of “goodness”….superlatives apply to God that no humans can ever attain….not even the son in human form….now that is humility.
Good grief! Now I’ve heard everything!
God’s ability to foresee the future in connection with Jacob and Esau has very little to do with Mary “being spared from original sin”. You guys never cease to amaze me with the lengths you will go to to make something that was never true into a doctrine.
Mary was saved like everybody else born into the human race descended from Adam. She is in heaven now, cringing at what you have done to her….turning her into a goddess and bowing down to her image. Something God finds repugnant. (Ex 20:4-5)
Here it is again…pure justification based on nothing…..give it up. Only indoctrinated Catholic people will believe the far fetched stories your church continues to tell….
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