The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[Jim C]

So it's a LIE going around that Catholics pray to Mary? Let's see what others have to say about this.

*cough*hail mary*cough*

 

[Jim C]

If it doesn't make sense for the idea of Mary to be without sin and reside in someone stained with original sin, then how can it make sense for God Incarnate, the Most Holy and Perfect One, to reside in someone stained with original sin? Mary's parents inherited the stain of original sin, but they were Just. In the case of Mary, God, in advance, Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus becoming an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then infused it into the embryo at the moment of conception. These factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support anything you said... but please do continue.

And you've also completely missed the point of why Jesus came here in the first place.

 

[Jack]

There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support anything you said... but please do continue.

And you've also completely missed the point of why Jesus came here in the first place.

Amen!

 

[Soulx3]

*cough*hail mary*cough*

The words in the Hail Mary prayer come from Scripture, and it begins by addressing Mary using the words the angel, Gabriel, and Her cousin used:

"Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with you. (Lk. 1:26-28)

Blessed art you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Lk. 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

Amen."

We are asking Her to pray to God for us. We're not praying to Her in the way we, including Her, prays to God. See, @Jack, this is an example that people believe the lie that we pray to Mary.

 

[Soulx3]

There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support anything you said...

Do you believe that God, in advance, could or could not have Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, Whom He was to take form and dwell in as God Incarnate, the Messiah, and before infusing Her soul at the moment of Her conception, preserve it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus be an immaculate soul? Could or could not these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, not result in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

And you've also completely missed the point of why Jesus came here in the first place.

This thread isn't about the purpose of God becoming man, it's about Whom He became man in, and showing why He didn't so in a human being stained with original sin, for sin is evil (1 Jn. 3:4;8), and no evil can dwell with God (Ps. 5:4). Consider that only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity. Would Mary not have to be so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second only to God, as to conceive God Incarnate, the Messiah, and offer Him to God the Father as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity?

 

[MA2444]

Jesus Himself explicitely states the Mother of God Incarnate is without sin as well, and explains why,

That's sort of the way that I understand it also. But Mary was still born into sin and did have the Adamic nature so a purification process had to take place in order to prepare her. So maybe she had one or more divine encounters of sorts wherein she was purified, and that stuff didnt make it into scripture? Or perhaps it was even started in Mary's line before, with her Mother perhaps?

 

[Soulx3]

That's sort of the way that I understand it also. But Mary was still born into sin and did have the Adamic nature so a purification process had to take place in order to prepare her. So maybe she had one or more divine encounters of sorts wherein she was purified, and that stuff didnt make it into scripture? Or perhaps it was even started in Mary's line before, with her Mother perhaps?

You're on the right track! In advance, God Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception. These factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven. This information is Scripture, but it simply isn't found in the scriptural writings that make up the Bible, whether because we lost the writings, or some other reason.

The reason I say all that is because Jesus spoke about why His Mother is without sin, as well the Ever-Virgin, to Maria Valtorta (He said a lot more about it than just the above). In 1943, Maria took dictation from Jesus and other heavenly persons, as well as received visions of scenes from the Gospel. At Jesus’ request, she wrote everything she saw and heard, filling 122 notebooks totaling 15,000 pages. Maria received most of the revelations before 1947, but they continued until 1953. Her writings were compiled into the following books: The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vols. I–V (a Work on the Life of Jesus), The Notebooks: 1943, The Notebooks: 1944, The Notebooks: 1945-1950, The Lessons of St. Paul to the Romans, The End Times, and The Book of Azariah. After reading these writings I know they come from Jesus from a spiritual, historical, mathematical, astronomical, geographical, agricultural, and cartographical standpoint, thanks to Him, further validated by the professionals in the aforementioned fields who have analyzed and tested the credibility of Maria Valtorta personally and her literary works. Below are just a few:

(i) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

(ii) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

It seems that she has written down observations and facts that really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

(iii) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.

(iv) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.

Maria Valtorta's writings are not solely composed of information not found in, nor supported by, the accounts of those found in the Old and New Testaments. Furthermore, while people do invent false information, no one can deny that there is existing true information about people/places/events that is lacking in the writings that make up the Bible. The apostle John has said that if everything Jesus said and did was written down, the whole world would not have room for all the books that would be written (Jn. 21:25). He was obviously being hyperbolic, but his point is clear.

 

[RedFan]

Because only Mary, not you, me, or anyone else, was chosen to conceive and be the Mother of God Incarnate. How is that not an argument for Her sinlessness?

It IS an argument for her sinlessness! But the Bible's silence on the issue is not. (Any "The Bible doesn't say No, therefore Yes" argument is invalid.)

 

[RedFan]

Furthermore, while people do invent false information, no one can deny that there is existing true information about people/places/events that is lacking in the writings that make up the Bible.

And no one can deny that there is existing FALSE information about people/places/events that is lacking in the writings that make up the Bible.

You really need to get off this "The Bible doesn't say No, therefore YES" kick. You've got some good points to make, and this type of silliness only detracts from your credibility.

 

[Athanasius377]

Most of the ideas about Mary gave their genesis in the Protoevangelium of James. Which I would add, was condemned by a couple of Popes. But you know how that is, . Here is part of the text were Mary remains a virgin even after she gives birth. And by virgin I don't mean not merely abstaining from sexual intercourse. I mean anatomically intact, if you get my drift.

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.

And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things—because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth—a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.



Roberts, Alexander, et al., editors. “The Protevangelium of James.” Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, the Clementina, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First Ages, translated by Alexander Walker, vol. 8, Christian Literature Company, 1886, pp. 365–66.

 

[RedFan]

Most of the ideas about Mary gave their genesis in the Protoevangelium of James. Which I would add, was condemned by a couple of Popes. But you know how that is, . Here is part of the text were Mary remains a virgin even after she gives birth. And by virgin I don't mean not merely abstaining from sexual intercourse. I mean anatomically intact, if you get my drift.

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.

And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things—because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth—a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.



Roberts, Alexander, et al., editors. “The Protevangelium of James.” Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, the Clementina, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First Ages, translated by Alexander Walker, vol. 8, Christian Literature Company, 1886, pp. 365–66.

I see nothing in this passage suggesting that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life. Do you?

 

[Adrift]

I see nothing in this passage suggesting that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life. Do you?

Reading your question, I thought, how does knowing whether Mary remained a virgin (or not) impact your salvation? I am not being mean-spirited. It is just a thought that I had when I read the question. It's like: "Did John the Baptist ever go fishing?" Who cares?

 

[Behold]

It IS an argument for her sinlessness! But the Bible's silence on the issue is not. (Any "The Bible doesn't say No, therefore Yes" argument is invalid.)

"the cult of mary"...... the members, are all programmed to teach that "Mary is Blessed Above all other women"..

Yet the Bible actually teaches that "mary is blessed among women"......not ABOVE THEM.

So, the "cult of Mary" always places their Plastic Statues of Mary, UP HIGH so that they can "worship" their goddess., as that is what she is become to them.

Now....If we look at The Cross and Jesus Dying on it...
Mary was there and so was John.

Jesus said ... "WOMAN, behold they son"........... and notice He didn't say "MOTHER"? or "Mary".

And we can see Him them doing this AGAIN, before the Crucifixion...

Its RIGHT there in a Bible.. (Matthew 12)

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his Mother and Brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”..


So, the "cult of mary" has just continued the Goddess Diana, as their "mary".

As if you study the PAGAN Goddess Diana, (history)...she is known as "the queen of heaven" and a "perpetual VIRGIN".

So, THAT is where this "mary mania', originated, and that is a fact.

 

[O'Darby]

Reading your question, I thought, how does knowing whether Mary remained a virgin (or not) impact your salvation? I am not being mean-spirited. It is just a thought that I had when I read the question. It's like: "Did John the Baptist ever go fishing?" Who cares?

I used to collect Madonnas just because I thought they were peaceful and lovely - a trait I inherited from my grandmother, who wasn't Catholic either. I had one on my desk at my office, along with a Buddha! When you entered my house, you were greeted by a four-foot, full-color Madonna I bought online at the Catholic Store. When my wife arrived from Belarus, she made me get rid of them, so now I have about 100 cat knick-knacks, including a three-foot Egyptian Bastet that greets you at the door. All the Catholic "Mary" stuff is fascinating to me - the apparitions at Fatima and Zeitoun were truly bizarre events by any standard. I don't think the Catholic Mary has anything to do with the historical Mary - she simply provides a Goddess figure that many find appealing to balance the patriarchal nature of the rest of Christianity. The Catholics and to some extent the Orthodox have dug themselves into a Mary hole so deep that they can no longer see over the edge.

What @Soulx3 is trying to do is articulate a rationale as to why the Mary doctrines "make sense" outside the Catholic arena and should be theologically mandatory for everyone, No one is ever going to talk a Catholic out of these core doctrines, and no Catholic is ever going to convince a non-Catholic. I do think it amounts to a big WHO CARES? (except, of course to a Catholic). If a non-Catholic told me she had decided the Immaculate Conception, Assumption and veneration of Mary were now part of her faith, I'd just yawn and say "Cool, I used to collect Madonnas myself."

Whether John the Baptist ever went fishing - now THAT deserves a thread of its own!

 

[Augustin56]

So which English translation says 'Mary was without sin'? It clearly says that about Jesus.

Hebrews 4:15 (NKJV)
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

1 Peter 2:21-22 (NKJV)
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 "Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth";

Jack, the writers of the Bible didn't write in English, nor did they write from a perspectve of someone in the 21st century. They wrote from the perspective of a 1st century person from the Middle East.

And, again, like the others, you are taking snippets of Scripture and making them say what you want it to say rather than what the original authors intended them to say. Sigh...

 

[Behold]

What @Soulx3 is trying to do is articulate a rationale as to why the Mary doctrines "make sense" outside the Catholic arena and should be theologically mandatory for everyone,

Nonsense.

 

[Jack]

Jack, the writers of the Bible didn't write in English, nor did they write from a perspectve of someone in the 21st century. They wrote from the perspective of a 1st century person from the Middle East.

God doesn't know English?

And, again, like the others, you are taking snippets of Scripture and making them say what you want it to say rather than what the original authors intended them to say. Sigh...

That sounds like a JW argument.

 

[marks]

We are asking Her to pray to God for us. We're not praying to Her in the way we, including Her, prays to God. See, @Jack, this is an example that people believe the lie that we pray to Mary.

Asking Mary is in fact praying to Mary. Making petition of Mary.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I do think it amounts to a big WHO CARES?

For me a key point comes in "how we read the Bible". When someone holds to a doctrine which is refuted in Scripture, they have to do something about that refutation. Typically this is address (in my experience) by "It says THIS, but it really means THAT." So that all no longer means all, or that "this is a symbol/metaphor for . . ."

If we get into the habit of allowing this kind of loose interpretation in our minds, that, to me, is a problem.

Much love!

 

[Jack]

Asking Mary is in fact praying to Mary. Making petition of Mary.

Much love!

Good point!