The 'blessed virgin Mary'

[robert derrick]

Dystopia
n noun an imaginary place or society in which everything is bad.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
It doesn't describe the marriage of Mary and Joseph but it does describe your false understanding of the Catholic Church.

It describes a false teaching of such a marriage that never existed.

It also describes the devilish things that occur, when people are forbidden to marry and have good healthy sex in their marriage beds.

The strong delusion of strong traditions outside of Scripture, made by dystopianly 'Sacred' leaders.

 

[Addy]

Addy, we are not talking about a normal marriage. This was unique. Mary was the only woman to conceive and give birth to God, She was prophesied back in Gen3:15.

In God’s plan of salvation he picked out certain people to have a special role.

I absolutely get that Mungo.... I understand that her role was unique.... I also believe that an angel appeared to Joseph... and explained that he was to go ahead and marry Mary ( lol ).... However... I do not understand the NEED for the Catholic church to take this to mean she was a perpetual virgin.... NO one seems to be LISTENING.... WHO stayed in the room 24/7??? Who can prove that they did not consummate their marriage??? NO one... NOBODY.... It's all a made up fable.

On the issue of priests and nuns making the vow of Chastity... I can digest that.. I can see the reasons for it.... but Mary's perpetual virginity is just a man made myth.

Anyways... I guess this was my stand against Catholicism day.... I've had a death in the family so it's been a rough one...

But... I left cookies and cake for theefaith... .so I think he still loves me.

 

[Mungo]

And here we go. Dive into the Greek, in order to redefine the word 'is'.

Until still means until. Until that point of time. There was no change until...then the change comes. 'Until' is never written, until there is a change.

Such people reject plain Scripture and refuse to acknowledge the truth, in order to continue to believe a lie: strong delusion.

Cultish ideologies must reject Scripture, change the normal meaning of things, and deny reality.

No, an action doesn't necessarily change at the "until" point.
until
preposition & conjunction up to (the point in time or the event.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
It is a time marker.
Something happens, or does not happen from time point "A" until time point "B"

What happens after time point "B" we either:
1. simply do not know
2. infer from something else in the text
3. assume from the general context

Assuming the action of interest must change leads to all sorts of absurdities.

 

[Mungo]

It describes a false teaching of such a marriage that never existed.

It also describes the devilish things that occur, when people are forbidden to marry and have good healthy sex in their marriage beds.

The strong delusion of strong traditions outside of Scripture, made by dystopianly 'Sacred' leaders.

Again you have a false understandings that leads to you telling lies about the Catholic Church.

 

[robert derrick]

No, an action doesn't necessarily change at the "until" point.
until
preposition & conjunction up to (the point in time or the event.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
It is a time marker.
Something happens, or does not happen from time point "A" until time point "B"

What happens after time point "B" we either:
1. simply do not know
2. infer from something else in the text
3. assume from the general context

Assuming the action of interest must change leads to all sorts of absurdities.

Assuming the action of interest must change leads to all sorts of absurdities.

Change words and reality.

Strong delusion.

Absurdly so.

 

[robert derrick]

Again you have a false understandings that leads to you telling lies about the Catholic Church.

We don't need lies. Your 'truths' are enough to warn us away.

 

[Mungo]

Change words and reality.

Strong delusion.

Translation: I have no answer to that so I will just make a stupid comment.

 

[Mungo]

We don't need lies. Your 'truths' are enough to warn us away.

That from a man that doesn't know the truth and doesn't want to.

 

[Addy]

Well... I guess I'll be going now... LOL

These topics always turn into a nasty thing.

 

[Mungo]

Well... I guess I'll be going now... LOL

These topics always turn into a nasty thing.

God bless you Addy.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Their marriage was arranged by God.

Well if you're going to get technical...everyone's marriage that is spoken of in the Bible was arranged by God for the purpose of fulfilling what was prophesied.

 

[farouk]

Well if you're going to get technical...everyone's marriage that is spoken of in the Bible was arranged by God for the purpose of fulfilling what was prophesied.

@Heart2Soul As we look at the genealogy for example in Matthew 1, it's wondrous to see the strong sense of Divine purpose it it. (Even though of course Joseph was not the natural father of the Lord Jesus.)

 

[Mungo]

Well if you're going to get technical...everyone's marriage that is spoken of in the Bible was arranged by God for the purpose of fulfilling what was prophesied.

So Mary and Jose[h's marriage was nothing special.
Here is a quote from another web site that expresses it well.

They were not like any other couple; the were the parents of God Incarnate! The wife in this couple was a living, sacred Tabernacle of the Lord, the Ark of the New Covenant, chosen and sanctified to bear the God man. How could St. Joseph even think of having sex with the sacred Ark of the New Covenant? He would have to have been a rash and sacrilegious man to presume to penetrate and impregnate with his own seed the sacred womb which had borne God! And considering Uzzah's terrible fate when he touched the original Ark (II Samuel 6:6-7), Joseph would not have gotten very far had he tried. Yet Scripture portrays him as a reverent man; hardly the type to try something like that.

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God (Mary's womb) should not be profaned.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

 

[Heart2Soul]

So Mary and Jose[h's marriage was nothing special.
Here is a quote from another web site that expresses it well.

They were not like any other couple; the were the parents of God Incarnate! The wife in this couple was a living, sacred Tabernacle of the Lord, the Ark of the New Covenant, chosen and sanctified to bear the God man. How could St. Joseph even think of having sex with the sacred Ark of the New Covenant? He would have to have been a rash and sacrilegious man to presume to penetrate and impregnate with his own seed the sacred womb which had borne God! And considering Uzzah's terrible fate when he touched the original Ark (II Samuel 6:6-7), Joseph would not have gotten very far had he tried. Yet Scripture portrays him as a reverent man; hardly the type to try something like that.

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God (Mary's womb) should not be profaned.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

Look I understand that you have been taught to reverence Mary because of her role as the chosen vessel to give birth to Jesus.
I have no problem with your belief...I just don't agree with some of the doctrines of your belief.
After Jesus came on the scene there is very little reference made about Joseph or Mary after Jesus was crucified...
The whole focus in scripture was about Jesus....so imho that's what is most important.
I believe Mary was a virgin when she became pregnant with Jesus.
I don't believe she remained celibate after He was born...and I certainly do not deny Jesus as the only begotten Son of God nor His divinity in the womb.

 

[Illuminator]

I don't care if Kermit the Frog himself thinks Mary was a "perpetual" virgin... none of this can be proven... it's all summation... and another snare of the Catholic Church.
There is absolutely no reason.. or basis to assume that Mary would not simply RESUME and consumate her marriage to Joseph after Jesus was born.

The Catholic church has given herself false authority.... and made false claims... false sacraments... false promises and it's all heresy to the most severe degree.

My little thoughts for a Sunday.... and NO... I'm not bored. @theefaith

If the reformers believed in the PVM and you assert they are all wrong, then where does that leave everything else the reformers taught?
No Protestant on the planet denied the PVM before the 18th century and I am still waiting for evidence to the contrary.

 

[theefaith]

For anyone who has wisdom....the story of Joseph and Mary...

There are three passages of Scripture that pertain specifically to the time of Joseph and Mary’s betrothal, the consummation of their marriage, and the birth of Jesus: Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-56; Luke 2:1-7. Each passage reveals something about their relationship as well as the cultural mores of that time.

In Bible times, Jewish marriage customs regarding a couple’s engagement were far different and much more stringent than those we are familiar with today, especially in the West. Marriages were arranged by the parents of the bride and groom and often without even consulting the couple to be married. A contract was prepared in which the groom’s parents paid a bride price. Such a contract was immediately deemed binding, with the couple considered married even though the actual ceremony and consummation of the marriage would not occur for as long as a year afterwards. The time between was a sort of testing of fidelity with the couple having little, if any, contact with each other.

It was during this betrothal period that the angel Gabriel visited Mary and told her of her impending pregnancy. It’s no small wonder that Mary was so inquisitive of the angel; she was still a virgin and would know no man sexually for several months, maybe as long as a year or more (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34).

Joseph soon became aware of Mary’s pregnancy, and this no doubt was cause for consternation on his part: “Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly” (Matthew 1:19). Jewish custom allowed that they be considered as husband and wife, though the marriage had not yet been consummated. The point is being made that Joseph and Mary had experienced no sexual contact with each other, as verse 18 “before they came together” points out. So, Joseph was in a quandary. Jewish law provided that his betrothed, because of her unfaithfulness, could be placed before the elders for judgment and stoned to death. But he was thinking to just put her away quietly without public knowledge. Betrothals or marriage engagements in those ancient times were binding and could only be terminated by an official divorce decree.

It was then that the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream (Matthew 1:20-25) and explained to him that all this was bringing about the fulfillment of prophecy that a virgin would bear a child who was to be the Savior (Isaiah 7:14), and “he [Joseph] did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.”

Luke 2:1-7 also confirms the idea that Joseph and Mary, though betrothed, were considered as husband and wife by Jewish customs even though the actual marriage ceremony had not been fully effectuated. So, Joseph and Mary were actually legally married before the birth of Jesus though their marriage was not consummated physically until after His birth.

where does it say that it was consummated?

mary is a perpetual Virgin and no sex according to the Bible Lk 1:34


Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)

 

[Heart2Soul]

where does it say that it was consummated?

mary is a perpetual Virgin and no sex according to the Bible Lk 1:34


Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)

Where does it say they didn't consummate their marriage?

 

[Illuminator]

I don't believe she remained celibate after He was born...

By 16th and 17th century standards, you would be deemed a heretic by all of Protestantism. The theological flip-flop didn't occur until the mid 18th century due to the false philosophies of the Enlightenment Era, which had influence on liberal modernist Protestants. Small pockets of this kind of thinking gradually spread like a virus. Denial of the PVM is a man made tradition, and a recent one at that.
"Mary a sinner" and "Mary had other children" are doctrines of demons because they both diminish the uniqueness of the Incarnation. The sense of the sacred is absent. Was the Ark of the Covenant was just a box for storing sandals? The foreshadowing of the Ark of the New Covenant tells us something about the sense of the sacred. That's why anti-Mary Christians dismiss or ignore the OT. What God makes holy stays holy.

 

[theefaith]

Where does it say they didn't consummate their marriage?

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

 

[theefaith]

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).