The answer of hell and its origins

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Aunty Jane

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Yes we know the JWs beliefs on the 144,000 some of us disagree.
You can disagree all you like, but you will never be able to say "nobody told me".....

There are only two types of people who will not survive the end of this present system.....

2 Thess 1:3-10, Paul wrote....

"We are obligated always to give thanks to God for you, brothers. This is fitting, because your faith is growing exceedingly and the love of each and every one of you is increasing toward one another. 4 As a result we ourselves take pride in you among the congregations of God because of your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the hardships that you are suffering. 5 This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.

6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."


There it is....those who don't know God because they don't want to.....and those who claim to know him but who do not accept, or act on the truth when they hear it......there will be no excuses accepted....

"The good news of the Kingdom" has been "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations"...so "the end" is not far away. (Matt 24:14)
 

RLT63

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You can disagree all you like, but you will never be able to say "nobody told me".....

There are only two types of people who will not survive the end of this present system.....

2 Thess 1:3-10, Paul wrote....

"We are obligated always to give thanks to God for you, brothers. This is fitting, because your faith is growing exceedingly and the love of each and every one of you is increasing toward one another. 4 As a result we ourselves take pride in you among the congregations of God because of your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the hardships that you are suffering. 5 This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.

6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."


There it is....those who don't know God because they don't want to.....and those who claim to know him but who do not accept, or act on the truth when they hear it......there will be no excuses accepted....

"The good news of the Kingdom" has been "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations"...so "the end" is not far away. (Matt 24:14)
The end has not been far away since the 1800s according to the Watchtower. You are kind of like the gnostics only the JWs have the truth and everyone else will perish. Only you have the true meaning of the scriptures everyone else is wrong. We can’t take the Bible for what it says because Trinitarians have corrupted it. And even out of all the JWs only a few will make it to Heaven. Jesus was an archangel before he came to earth and there is no Hell. It’s all a little much for me.
 

RLT63

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What I am "trying to say" is not going to be found in the translation that you have taken these verses from....it is IMO a very poor translation and the reason why most modern English translations (not based off the KJV) make the differentiation quite clear.
When the KJV uses "elect" instead of "chosen", when this term is used by most Bible translators only in reference to Christ's "joint-heirs"......those chosen by God to rule with his son in heaven....we have an immediate clash of beliefs.

All the verses you quoted from the Hebrew scriptures have the same word "elect" which applied to Israel in a very different way to what it does to Christ's "elect" in the Greek.

Israel were "chosen" to produce God's Messiah under the "old covenant".....this is a very different "election" to those taken into the "new covenant". God chose various individuals for different roles in the outworking of his purpose. "Chosen" does not mean "elected" in the sense that Christ's co-rulers are 'elected' for life in heaven.....its a totally different thing.

Only those from the night when Jesus inaugurated the "new covenant" with his 11 faithful apostles, were the first to receive that 'election' or "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) to rule with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom as "kings and priests". (Rev 20:6)

The Jews as a nation were never faithful to their God, and constantly broke their covenant with him....but he did not break his covenant with them, until he had fulfilled it. After they had his son executed, he "abandoned" that nation (Matt 23:37-39) and chose a new "nation" to serve his interests on earth.....this was "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who had accepted Jesus as Messiah and were willing to press on in a hostile environment to expand Jesus' message to all the nations. (Acts 15:14)

Part of the Abrahamic covenant was the eventual blessing of ALL nations who were saved by faith in that coming "seed of Abraham". (Gen 22:18)

So unless you see that the translation you are using is very misleading, you will not arrive at the truth.
And that sounds like replacement theology
 

Aunty Jane

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The end has not been far away since the 1800s according to the Watchtower. You are kind of like the gnostics only the JWs have the truth and everyone else will perish. Only you have the true meaning of the scriptures everyone else is wrong. We can’t take the Bible for what it says because Trinitarians have corrupted it. And even out of all the JWs only a few will make it to Heaven. Jesus was an archangel before he came to earth and there is no Hell.
That's the thing...."No one knows the day or the hour"....no JW has ever said a 'day or an hour'.....we have suggested some years as a perhaps, but well aware that the end will come in God's time, not ours. If you read the scriptures you will see that God kept the coming of the Kingdom, Immanent, even back then.....no one will have to wait longer than their own lifetime.

As far as "we are the only ones who have the truth"......well there was only one Christianity until humans under the devil's influence carved it up to follow the traditions and teachings of men. The devil did the same to the Jewish religion.....infighting is a sign of the absence of God's spirit.
Paul said ...."Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10 NKJV)
By what stretch of whose imagination does that describe Christendom.....look at the conflicts between the posters here for proof of that....there is no agreement and yet all claim to belong to the "body of Christ"...their division disqualifies them.

JW's are no part of Christendom. We have no beliefs in common with them.

There is a diamond in the pile of broken glass....and unity is the identifier, along with one other very important trait.....
John 13:34-35...
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

That means becoming a neutral bystander in the affairs of this world. In the two world wars of last century, Catholic killed Catholic and Protestant killed Protestant in obedience to their governments.....but not in obedience to the Christ. (Matt 5:43-44)
We are to be "no part" of that world because it is ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19; John 17:14)
The Russia and Ukraine conflict is a classic example of that still happening....the Russian Orthodox church is sanctioning the killing their own brothers in the Ukrainian Orthodox church......whose side is God on???

1 John 4:20-21...
" If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also."

Do you tell your brother that you love him, before or after you shoot him with missiles, just because he happens to live in a nation that your nation is at war with....Can you see what it truly means to be a "Christian"? A true Christian must not take sides or do harm to anyone.

It’s all a little much for me.
Getting rejected by Jesus at the judgment because you didn't want to acknowledge the truth, might be a bit much also.....we can't afford to get this wrong....we only get one shot.

If you understand what indoctrination is, you will understand how hard it is to uproot "strongly entrenched" beliefs.....
2 Cor 10:3-5...
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ".

I personally found Christendom's doctrines easy to reject because I saw right through the whole church system quite early in my life. I saw how hypocritical they were when wars were being fought and the clergy were right there supporting the bloodshed. The scripture quoted above leaves no room for doubt.

When you know what original Christianity was like....you can see that what passes for it today, is nothing like it was in the first century.......2000 years of apostasy and the Christian faith is a divided and bickering mess. We are told to get out of that rabble....(Rev 18:4-5)
 

Aunty Jane

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And that sounds like replacement theology
And that is exactly what the Bible says....
Acts 15:14
"Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name." (NKJV)

This was a new nation to replace Israel...."the Israel of God" (Gal:16)....made up of both Jews and Gentiles....
 

RLT63

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That's the thing...."No one knows the day or the hour"....no JW has ever said a 'day or an hour'.....we have suggested some years as a perhaps, but well aware that the end will come in God's time, not ours. If you read the scriptures you will see that God kept the coming of the Kingdom, Immanent, even back then.....no one will have to wait longer than their own lifetime.

As far as "we are the only ones who have the truth"......well there was only one Christianity until humans under the devil's influence carved it up to follow the traditions and teachings of men. The devil did the same to the Jewish religion.....infighting is a sign of the absence of God's spirit.
Paul said ...."Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10 NKJV)
By what stretch of whose imagination does that describe Christendom.....look at the conflicts between the posters here for proof of that....there is no agreement and yet all claim to belong to the "body of Christ"...their division disqualifies them.

JW's are no part of Christendom. We have no beliefs in common with them.

There is a diamond in the pile of broken glass....and unity is the identifier, along with one other very important trait.....
John 13:34-35...
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

That means becoming a neutral bystander in the affairs of this world. In the two world wars of last century, Catholic killed Catholic and Protestant killed Protestant in obedience to their governments.....but not in obedience to the Christ. (Matt 5:43-44)
We are to be "no part" of that world because it is ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19; John 17:14)
The Russia and Ukraine conflict is a classic example of that still happening....the Russian Orthodox church is sanctioning the killing their own brothers in the Ukrainian Orthodox church......whose side is God on???

1 John 4:20-21...
" If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also."

Do you tell your brother that you love him, before or after you shoot him with missiles, just because he happens to live in a nation that your nation is at war with....Can you see what it truly means to be a "Christian"? A true Christian must not take sides or do harm to anyone.


Getting rejected by Jesus at the judgment because you didn't want to acknowledge the truth, might be a bit much also.....we can't afford to get this wrong....we only get one shot.

If you understand what indoctrination is, you will understand how hard it is to uproot "strongly entrenched" beliefs.....
2 Cor 10:3-5...
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ".

I personally found Christendom's doctrines easy to reject because I saw right through the whole church system quite early in my life. I saw how hypocritical they were when wars were being fought and the clergy were right there supporting the bloodshed. The scripture quoted above leaves no room for doubt.

When you know what original Christianity was like....you can see that what passes for it today, is nothing like it was in the first century.......2000 years of apostasy and the Christian faith is a divided and bickering mess. We are told to get out of that rabble....(Rev 18:4-5)
More pious condemnation of those who don’t agree with you. JWs are a denomination, part of the very infighting that you condemn.
 

robert derrick

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rd, you post and listen very black and white;
Absolutely true with the things of God. It is either the truth of Scripture or not. Opinions about the weather can be gray. The problem is trying to mix opinion with Scripture, and corrupt the truth of God as though it's just about the passing weather.

i did not say that to agree with God torturing, but to say that torturing is very subjective, and you could as easily have addressed the Scriptures that imply that He indeed does—“Have you come to torture us before the appointed time?” or one of the others—
had you really been interested in challenging the point, rather than simply trying to paper it over and be right in your own eyes.
Had you offered a Scriptural point, rather than just personal opinion, I would have addressed it. And here you do try and make one, and ift confirms my argument.

The devils say it is Jesus that is and will be tormenting them. Which is the false accusation of all devils and Lucifer against God, that He purposely withholds good things from His created beings and only wants to humiliate and torment them:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So then you're subjective point is correct. Only those with the Satan's 'subjectiveness' would say God torments His own creatures. Many people of history have said the same, who do not want to believe the God of the Bible is the true God.
 

bbyrd009

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Absolutely true with the things of God. It is either the truth of Scripture or not. Opinions about the weather can be gray
yet i suggest that you cannot state a single absolute truth from Scripture, Robert; go ahead and give it a shot if you like.

We live in the grey areas :)
The devils say it is Jesus that is and will be tormenting them. Which is the false accusation of all devils and Lucifer against God, that He purposely withholds good things from His created beings and only wants to humiliate and torment them:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
here i would say that it seems we are mostly agreeing, but you have decided that you know good from evil…
 
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robert derrick

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yet i suggest that you cannot state a single absolute truth from Scripture, Robert; go ahead and give it a shot if you like.
We can begin with Gen 1:1 and go on from there to John 1:1 and beyond, if you like.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

People manipulate and message Scripture from the white to the gray, in order to teach the black. Such as a created christ.

I know exactly what I am doing every moment of the day, because I know exactly what I am thinking, and casting down any thought from the devil, that is not of God. That is the Scriptural way of ensuring lust has no more place in our pure hearts, nor transgression in our holy lives of Christ.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Christians that don't have this sure entrance, are either babes ignorant of what to do for it, or older Christians that don't want it, and remain always in the double heartedness of Rom 7. And some become teachers telling themselves and others, that they have the no condemnation of Romans 8, while continuing in the grey of Romans 7.

They don't have to do anything to ensure their salvation, but just 'believe it' by faith alone.

We live in the grey areas :)
We all live in gray weather at times, not life in Christ. You speak for your own life of faith, not mine.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


You're the one choosing to walk in both light and darkness, and call it gray fellowship with Jesus Christ. That's your problem, not mine.


here i would say that it seems we are mostly agreeing, but you have decided that you know good from evil…
Of course I do.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Knowing good from evil by believing all Scripture as the truth, is the easy part. Doing only good and no evil is the rubber hitting the road in walking with Christ as He walked on earth.
 
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Aunty Jane

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More pious condemnation of those who don’t agree with you. JWs are a denomination, part of the very infighting that you condemn.
Conviction is not arrogance.....trying to tell people the truth is not unloving....it is what Jesus and his apostles did. The Jewish leaders hated them for exposing their hypocrisy....these in turn disparaged the Christians and made them appear to be a threat to the Jewish nation.

I have no authority to judge anyone, but I do have a command to teach the truth as a witness of Jehovah.
Jesus was a ”faithful and true witness” for his God (Rev 3:14).....so I follow what he taught, not what the churches teach.

JW’s are not part of the infighting....we have removed ourselves entirely from that rabble.....we are not the ones in conflict with each other fighting about what to believe....and yet still claiming to be “the body of Christ”....can you not see how “the body of Christ” in Christendom is horribly dismembered? Could Christ ever be a part of that disunity that has just gotten worse as time has elapsed? (1 Cor 1:10)

Rev 18:4-5 must be obeyed....without delay....
“And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

If you don’t know who or what “Babylon the great” is, you cannot obey that important directive.
 
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RLT63

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Conviction is not arrogance.....trying to tell people the truth is not unloving....it is what Jesus and his apostles did. The Jewish leaders hated them for exposing their hypocrisy....these in turn disparaged the Christians and made them appear to be a threat to the Jewish nation.

I have no authority to judge anyone, but I do have a command to teach the truth as a witness of Jehovah.
Jesus was a”faithful and true witness” for his God.....so I follow what he taught, not what the churches teach.

JW’s are not part of the infighting....we have removed ourselves entirely from that rabble.....we are not the ones in conflict with each other fighting about what to believe....and yet still claiming to be “the body of Christ”....can you not see how “the body of Christ” in Christendom is horribly dismembered? Could Christ ever be a part of that disunity that has just gotten worse as time has elapsed? (1 Cor 1:10)

Rev 18:4-5 must be obeyed....without delay....
“And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

If you don’t know who or what “Babylon the great” is, you cannot obey that important directive.
I know what Babylon the Great and the great whore of Revelation are and I’m not part of them, and I understand your conviction. You do what you believe in. It comes across as condescending sometimes.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I know what Babylon the Great and the great whore of Revelation are and I’m not part of them, and I understand your conviction. You do what you believe in. It comes across as condescending sometimes.
If you can trace your beliefs back to ancient Babylon, then you are indeed part of “the greater Babylon”....the place from which all false religious ideas spread all over the world with the confusing of the language at the tower that Nimrod and his cronies tried to build......these include the worship of more than one god, often grouped in triads......that we have an immortal soul that immediately survives the death of the body to live on in another realm.....and that the wicked will be forever tortured in a fiery hell for all eternity, whilst the good will gain life in heavenly bliss.

None of these beliefs originate from scripture but were grafted in over ambiguous verses to suggest something the Bible never taught.
This is why we need to do our own research...study original language words and understand what Jewish scripture taught a nation that could never seem to get their relationship with God on the right track....

We all have a common enemy....but some of us are sleeping with him, imagining that he is someone we can trust....he has perfected his craft over millenniums......what looks like the truth in his world....isn’t. (1 John 5:19)
 
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bbyrd009

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But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil
17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

see, you maybe arent realizing that that is Paul, and Paul is yanking your chain lol
you are a meat eater, and i would rather never eat meat again, so being as how milk and meat should not be on the same shelf, all i can really say is that i genuinely wish you the best of luck Robert
We can begin with Gen 1:1 and go on from there to John 1:1 and beyond, if you like.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

People manipulate and message Scripture from the white to the gray, in order to teach the black. Such as a created christ.

I know exactly what I am doing every moment of the day, because I know exactly what I am thinking, and casting down any thought from the devil, that is not of God. That is the Scriptural way of ensuring lust has no more place in our pure hearts, nor transgression in our holy lives of Christ.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Christians that don't have this sure entrance, are either babes ignorant of what to do for it, or older Christians that don't want it, and remain always in the double heartedness of Rom 7. And some become teachers telling themselves and others, that they have the no condemnation of Romans 8, while continuing in the grey of Romans 7.

They don't have to do anything to ensure their salvation, but just 'believe it' by faith alone.


We all live in gray weather at times, not life in Christ. You speak for your own life of faith, not mine.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


You're the one choosing to walk in both light and darkness, and call it gray fellowship with Jesus Christ. That's your problem, not mine.



Of course I do.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Knowing good from evil by believing all Scripture as the truth, is the easy part. Doing only good and no evil is the rubber hitting the road in walking with Christ as He walked on earth.
you might seek me out when you have fallen off the cliff, and all those vv have changed on you ok
when your hip goes out of joint iow. literally. Well, i guess that could be a year or two after you fall off the cliff, but whatevs—when you stop knowing everything, and start questioning again
 
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The Learner

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If you can trace your beliefs back to ancient Babylon, then you are indeed part of “the greater Babylon”....the place from which all false religious ideas spread all over the world with the confusing of the language at the tower that Nimrod and his cronies tried to build......these include the worship of more than one god, often grouped in triads......that we have an immortal soul that immediately survives the death of the body to live on in another realm.....and that the wicked will be forever tortured in a fiery hell for all eternity, whilst the good will gain life in heavenly bliss.

None of these beliefs originate from scripture but were grafted in over ambiguous verses to suggest something the Bible never taught.
This is why we need to do our own research...study original language words and understand what Jewish scripture taught a nation that could never seem to get their relationship with God on the right track....

We all have a common enemy....but some of us are sleeping with him, imagining that he is someone we can trust....he has perfected his craft over millenniums......what looks like the truth in his world....isn’t. (1 John 5:19)

Nothing like the foolish copycat thesis raising its ugly heads.








The Babylon Connection? The Babylon Connection?: Woodrow, Ralph: 9780916938178: Amazon.com: Books

 

RLT63

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If you can trace your beliefs back to ancient Babylon, then you are indeed part of “the greater Babylon”....the place from which all false religious ideas spread all over the world with the confusing of the language at the tower that Nimrod and his cronies tried to build......these include the worship of more than one god, often grouped in triads......that we have an immortal soul that immediately survives the death of the body to live on in another realm.....and that the wicked will be forever tortured in a fiery hell for all eternity, whilst the good will gain life in heavenly bliss.

None of these beliefs originate from scripture but were grafted in over ambiguous verses to suggest something the Bible never taught.
This is why we need to do our own research...study original language words and understand what Jewish scripture taught a nation that could never seem to get their relationship with God on the right track....

We all have a common enemy....but some of us are sleeping with him, imagining that he is someone we can trust....he has perfected his craft over millenniums......what looks like the truth in his world....isn’t. (1 John 5:19)
The human soul is that part of a man or woman that is not physical. The soul is central to the personhood of a human being. It is the “true self”—who a person really is. The soul is the center of life, feeling, thought, and action in a human being.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. That is, the soul is not subject to death. The soul never ceases to exist but is everlasting. The soul is spiritual and thus has the quality of immortality. In contrast, the body is physical; the earthly body we now possess is subject to death.

The immortality of the soul is clearly seen in many places in Scripture. For example, in Psalm 23:6 David says, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” In Ecclesiastes 12:7 the Preacher mentions two things that happen at death: “The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” In 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Paul says that believers who have died will be with Christ at the rapture of the church: “We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.” All these passages indicate that the soul is immortal.

In Revelation 6:9, John sees “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.” So, the souls of Christian martyrs are in heaven. As 2 Corinthians 5:8 teaches, to be “absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord” (NKJV).

In Luke 23:43, Jesus promises one of the thieves who is dying beside Him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Obviously, Jesus believed the soul of the repentant thief was going to survive physical death.

Daniel 12:2–3 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.” This passage promises a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. When we die, our bodies return to “dust” (cf. Genesis 3:19). From that dust the body will return to either “everlasting life” or “everlasting contempt.” We must assume the soul will be reunited with the body at that time—otherwise, the bodies would be soulless and therefore inhuman.

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” The same Greek word, translated “eternal,” is used to describe both “punishment” and “life.” Jesus clearly taught that both the wicked and the righteous will exist forever in one of two conditions. Thus, every human being has an immortal, everlasting soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether saved or lost, will exist eternally. The spiritual part of us does not cease to exist when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven or in punishment in hell. The Bible also teaches that our souls will be reunited with our bodies at the resurrection. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12–19).

All souls are immortal, but they are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other creatures, animal, human, or angelic, had a beginning. Our souls came into being at a certain point in history, and they live forever after that. But there was a time when our souls did not exist. Our souls are immortal, and we will live everlastingly. But only our Creator is eternal. Source Got Questions
 
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RLT63

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If you can trace your beliefs back to ancient Babylon, then you are indeed part of “the greater Babylon”....the place from which all false religious ideas spread all over the world with the confusing of the language at the tower that Nimrod and his cronies tried to build......these include the worship of more than one god, often grouped in triads......that we have an immortal soul that immediately survives the death of the body to live on in another realm.....and that the wicked will be forever tortured in a fiery hell for all eternity, whilst the good will gain life in heavenly bliss.

None of these beliefs originate from scripture but were grafted in over ambiguous verses to suggest something the Bible never taught.
This is why we need to do our own research...study original language words and understand what Jewish scripture taught a nation that could never seem to get their relationship with God on the right track....

We all have a common enemy....but some of us are sleeping with him, imagining that he is someone we can trust....he has perfected his craft over millenniums......what looks like the truth in his world....isn’t. (1 John 5:19)

Description​

From the Author​

In my earlier Christian experience, certain literature fell into my hands which claimed paganism had been mixed into Christianity. While the Roman Catholic Church was usually the target, it seemed other churches had also been contaminated by customs and beliefs for which pagan parallels could be found.
"The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop (1807-1862), with its alarming subtitle, "the papal worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife," was THE textbook on which much of this teaching was based. Over the years, this book has impacted the thinking of many people-ranging all the way from those in radical cults to very dedicated Christians who hunger for a move of God and are concerned about anything that might hinder that flow. Its basic premise is that the pagan religion of ancient Babylon has continued to our day, in disguise, as the Roman Catholic Church and is described in the book of Revelation as "Mystery Babylon the Great"-thus, the idea of TWO Babylons, one ancient, and on modern. Because Hislop's book is very detailed, having a multitude of notes and references, I assumed, as did many others, it was factual. We quoted "Hislop" as an authority on paganism, jut like "Webster" might be quoted on word definitions.
As a young evangelist I began to share a sermon on the mixture of paganism into Christianity, and eventually wrote a book based on Hislop-"Babylon Mystery Religion." In time, my book became quite popular, went through many printings, and was translated into Korean, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and several other languages. I came to be regarded by some as an authority on the subject of pagan mixture. Even a noted Roman Catholic writer, Karl Keating, said: "Its best-known proponent is Ralph Woodrow, author of 'Babylon Mystery Religion'."
Many preferred my book over "The Two Babylons" because it was easier to read and follow. Sometimes the two books were confused with each other. Letters in a steady flow were received praising my book. Only occasionally would there be a dissenting voice. ONE WHO DISAGREED was Scott Klemm, a high school history teacher in southern California. Being a Christian, and appreciating other things I had written, he began to show me EVIDENCE THAT HISLOP WAS NOT A RELIABLE HISTORIAN. As a result, I realized that I needed to go back through Hislop's work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out!
As I did this, it became clear-Hislop's "history" was often only mythology. Even though myths may sometimes reflect events that actually happened, an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths can not provide a sound basis for history. Take enough tribes, enough tales, enough time, jump from one time to another, from one country to another, pick and choose similarities-why anything could be "proved"!
The concern about not having anything pagan in our lives can be likened to a ship crossing a vast ocean. This concern has taken us in the right direction, but as we come to a better understanding as to what is actually pagan and what is not, a correction of the course is necessary in our journey. This is not a going back, but a correction of the course as we follow "the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day" (Prov. 4:18).
Although we challenge some of Hislop's claims in THE BABYLON CONNECTION?-this is not intended as an attack against him personally. As far as we know, he was a dedicated Christian, a brother in Christ. Nor is it our goal in writing this book to merely discredit another book. Instead, it is our desire that this effort will help us understand "the way of God more perfectly" (cf. Acts 18:26), find a biblical balance, and glorify Him who said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).






Product description​

The Babylon Connection? shows that the claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection, takes a closer look at the oft-quoted The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop, and provides some much needed clarification on this subject. Was Nimrod a deformed, ugly black man, married to Semiramis, a beautiful white woman with blue eyes and blond hair? Was Semiramis the originator of Soprano singing and priestly celibacy? Was she the mother of Tammuz? Is the cross a symbol of Tammuz? Are round communion wafers sun-symbols? Are candles, black clergy garments, the letters I.H.S., the fish symbol, halos, and church steeples of pagan origin? Does the Pope wear a crown with 666 on it? Was the papal mitre copied from the fishhead of Dagon? Does the Book of Revelation describe the Roman Catholic Church as "Mystery Babylon"? ——From the book The Babylon Connection
 
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RLT63

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Description​

From the Author​

In my earlier Christian experience, certain literature fell into my hands which claimed paganism had been mixed into Christianity. While the Roman Catholic Church was usually the target, it seemed other churches had also been contaminated by customs and beliefs for which pagan parallels could be found.
"The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop (1807-1862), with its alarming subtitle, "the papal worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife," was THE textbook on which much of this teaching was based. Over the years, this book has impacted the thinking of many people-ranging all the way from those in radical cults to very dedicated Christians who hunger for a move of God and are concerned about anything that might hinder that flow. Its basic premise is that the pagan religion of ancient Babylon has continued to our day, in disguise, as the Roman Catholic Church and is described in the book of Revelation as "Mystery Babylon the Great"-thus, the idea of TWO Babylons, one ancient, and on modern. Because Hislop's book is very detailed, having a multitude of notes and references, I assumed, as did many others, it was factual. We quoted "Hislop" as an authority on paganism, jut like "Webster" might be quoted on word definitions.
As a young evangelist I began to share a sermon on the mixture of paganism into Christianity, and eventually wrote a book based on Hislop-"Babylon Mystery Religion." In time, my book became quite popular, went through many printings, and was translated into Korean, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and several other languages. I came to be regarded by some as an authority on the subject of pagan mixture. Even a noted Roman Catholic writer, Karl Keating, said: "Its best-known proponent is Ralph Woodrow, author of 'Babylon Mystery Religion'."
Many preferred my book over "The Two Babylons" because it was easier to read and follow. Sometimes the two books were confused with each other. Letters in a steady flow were received praising my book. Only occasionally would there be a dissenting voice. ONE WHO DISAGREED was Scott Klemm, a high school history teacher in southern California. Being a Christian, and appreciating other things I had written, he began to show me EVIDENCE THAT HISLOP WAS NOT A RELIABLE HISTORIAN. As a result, I realized that I needed to go back through Hislop's work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out!
As I did this, it became clear-Hislop's "history" was often only mythology. Even though myths may sometimes reflect events that actually happened, an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths can not provide a sound basis for history. Take enough tribes, enough tales, enough time, jump from one time to another, from one country to another, pick and choose similarities-why anything could be "proved"!
The concern about not having anything pagan in our lives can be likened to a ship crossing a vast ocean. This concern has taken us in the right direction, but as we come to a better understanding as to what is actually pagan and what is not, a correction of the course is necessary in our journey. This is not a going back, but a correction of the course as we follow "the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day" (Prov. 4:18).
Although we challenge some of Hislop's claims in THE BABYLON CONNECTION?-this is not intended as an attack against him personally. As far as we know, he was a dedicated Christian, a brother in Christ. Nor is it our goal in writing this book to merely discredit another book. Instead, it is our desire that this effort will help us understand "the way of God more perfectly" (cf. Acts 18:26), find a biblical balance, and glorify Him who said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).






Product description​

The Babylon Connection? shows that the claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection, takes a closer look at the oft-quoted The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop, and provides some much needed clarification on this subject. Was Nimrod a deformed, ugly black man, married to Semiramis, a beautiful white woman with blue eyes and blond hair? Was Semiramis the originator of Soprano singing and priestly celibacy? Was she the mother of Tammuz? Is the cross a symbol of Tammuz? Are round communion wafers sun-symbols? Are candles, black clergy garments, the letters I.H.S., the fish symbol, halos, and church steeples of pagan origin? Does the Pope wear a crown with 666 on it? Was the papal mitre copied from the fishhead of Dagon? Does the Book of Revelation describe the Roman Catholic Church as "Mystery Babylon"? ——From the book The Babylon Connection
 
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RLT63

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If you can trace your beliefs back to ancient Babylon, then you are indeed part of “the greater Babylon”....the place from which all false religious ideas spread all over the world with the confusing of the language at the tower that Nimrod and his cronies tried to build......these include the worship of more than one god, often grouped in triads......that we have an immortal soul that immediately survives the death of the body to live on in another realm.....and that the wicked will be forever tortured in a fiery hell for all eternity, whilst the good will gain life in heavenly bliss.

None of these beliefs originate from scripture but were grafted in over ambiguous verses to suggest something the Bible never taught.
This is why we need to do our own research...study original language words and understand what Jewish scripture taught a nation that could never seem to get their relationship with God on the right track....

We all have a common enemy....but some of us are sleeping with him, imagining that he is someone we can trust....he has perfected his craft over millenniums......what looks like the truth in his world....isn’t. (1 John 5:19)
evelation 17:1-2 tells us, “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.’” Revelation 17:5 goes on to say, “And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Who is this “whore of Babylon” and what is “mystery Babylon”?

Revelation 17:3 gives this description: “Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.” The beast mentioned in this verse is the same beast as in Revelation chapter 13:1, “And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.” The beast in Revelation chapter 13 is understood to refer to the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Daniel 9:27). So, the whore of Babylon, whoever it is, is closely affiliated with the end-times Antichrist.

The fact that the whore of Babylon is referred to as a mystery means that we cannot be completely certain as to her identity. The passage does give us some clues, however. Revelation 17:9 explains, “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.” Many commentators link this passage with the Roman Catholic Church because in ancient times, the city of Rome was known as “the city on seven hills” because there are seven prominent hills that surround the city. However, verse 10 goes on to explain that the seven hills represent 7 kings or kingdoms, five of which have fallen, one that is and one that is to come. Therefore, the "whore of Babylon" cannot refer exclusively to Rome. Revelation 17:15 tells us, “Then the angel said to me, ‘The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.’” The whore of Babylon will have great worldwide influence over people and nations. Verses 10-14 describe a series of eight and then ten kings who affiliate with the beast. The whore of Babylon will at one time have control over these kings (Revelation 17:18), but at some point the kings will turn on her and destroy her (Revelation 17:16).

So, can the mystery of the whore of Babylon be solved? Yes, at least partially. The whore of Babylon is an evil world system, controlled by the Antichrist, during the last days before Jesus’ return. The whore of Babylon also has religious connotations – spiritual adultery with the beast being the focus of an ungodly, end-times religious system. Source Got Questions
 
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Aunty Jane

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The human soul is that part of a man or woman that is not physical. The soul is central to the personhood of a human being. It is the “true self”—who a person really is. The soul is the center of life, feeling, thought, and action in a human being.
Please show me any scripture that says that the human “soul” is immortal. The "soul" is the living, breathing creature......man or animal...

Ezekiel 18:4...
“Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.” Souls are not immortal.

Solomon wrote....
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Eccl 3:19-20)

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10...
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward,* because all memory of them is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (Sheol) where you are going.”

I know that no matter what I show you, you will believe as you wish and that is your prerogative.....no point in continuing to rehash....its all been said. We all have to make our own decisions....Jesus will tell us whether we have the truth or have swallowed the lies.
 
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