The answer of hell and its origins

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RLT63

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What??? You don't understand hyperbole? He is contrasting the impossible fact that heaven and earth could pass away with the fact that his words are equally impossible to pass away....


And you do understand that Revelation was presented in signs and symbols....not a lot of it can be taken literally, so again "the heaven and earth" here are not literal anymore than they were in Isaiah's day.

The "sea" that is "no more" is the restless sea of wicked humanity.
Isa 17:12-13..
"Listen! There is a commotion of many peoples,
Who are as boisterous as the seas!

There is an uproar of nations,
Whose sound is like the roar of mighty waters!

13 The nations will make a sound like the roar of many waters.
He will rebuke them, and they will flee far away,
Chased like the chaff of the mountains before a wind,
Like a whirling thistle before a storm wind."


Luke 21:25...
"Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation."
This roaring is not the literal ocean....it is the anguish of nations not knowing what to do because of these critical times.

Rev 17:1, 15...
"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me: “Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters. . . . .He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

Babylon the great also "sits on many waters".....Babylon the great is not a literal city, but the people who accept her false worship as their truth. (Rev 18:4-5)

And that is indeed what the current wicked earthly society will experience....they will "go out of existence"..."cease to exist"... but not the planet. Solomon said the earth is here forever, 'generation after generation'..... (Eccl 1:4)

The current "heavens" have to be destroyed.....but this is not the universe......Paul identified who is really ruling this world.....he said "we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places." (Eph 6:12)

The demonic forces who are influencing mankind and who are creating all the tribulation on this earth, will be no more. God will do away with them.
The literal "heavens" have not done anything to require their destruction, and are without defect, so why would God destroy his handiwork just because those rebels derailed his purpose temporarily....?
It makes absolutely no sense to suggest that the literal heavens and earth are going to be replaced.....that is not what what the says.
@Aunty Jane said “What??? You don't understand hyperbole? He is contrasting the impossible fact that heaven and earth could pass away with the fact that his words are equally impossible to pass away....”. First, there is no such thing as an impossible fact. You are denying what the scripture obviously says. Your explanation is ridiculous.
 
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Aunty Jane

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there is no such thing as an impossible fact.
What was the point of Jesus’ statement....?.....he was contrasting two impossibilities.
Heaven and earth will not pass away....and neither will his words.....

Psalm 37 is a favourite of mine....David wrote prophetically...he said...

“Do not be angry and frustrated. Do not fret. That only leads to trouble. Wicked men will be wiped out, but those who rely on the Lord are the ones who will possess the land. . . . . .Evil men will soon disappear; you will stare at the spot where they once were, but they will be gone. But the oppressed will possess the land and enjoy great prosperity. . . . . But evil men will die; the Lord’s enemies will be incinerated—they will go up in smoke. Surely those favored by the Lord will possess the land, but those rejected by him will be wiped out. For the Lord promotes justice, and never abandons his faithful followers.They are permanently secure, but the children of the wicked are wiped out.” (Vs. 8-11, 20, 22, 28 NET)

“The land” here is on this earth. David, like other prophets speaks of a time when the wicked will be removed...”wiped out”... as God had done before, whereas the oppressed will possess that same “land” and prosper due to his blessings. (Like the original Jews did in their Promised Land)

From what I am seeing, one of us is denying what scripture is saying and we each see the other’s responses as “ridiculous”.....stalemate. OK....?

Jesus will tell us all whose beliefs are “ridiculous”...and who has the truth (John 6:65)....we will be the last to know....and confidence is no indicator. Those whom Jesus rejects show their confidence in what they have accepted as their “Christian” Faith, even offering their excuses to the one judging them, yet he’s says to them, “I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness”. (Matt 7:21-23) No one wants to hear that....do they?

We choose our own destiny by our own choices......but the final choice belongs to Jesus.....that’s it.
 
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RLT63

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What was the point of Jesus’ statement....?.....he was contrasting two impossibilities.
Heaven and earth will not pass away....and neither will his words.....

Psalm 37 is a favourite of mine....David wrote prophetically...he said...

“Do not be angry and frustrated. Do not fret. That only leads to trouble. Wicked men will be wiped out, but those who rely on the Lord are the ones who will possess the land. . . . . .Evil men will soon disappear; you will stare at the spot where they once were, but they will be gone. But the oppressed will possess the land and enjoy great prosperity. . . . . But evil men will die; the Lord’s enemies will be incinerated—they will go up in smoke. Surely those favored by the Lord will possess the land, but those rejected by him will be wiped out. For the Lord promotes justice, and never abandons his faithful followers.They are permanently secure, but the children of the wicked are wiped out.” (Vs. 8-11, 20, 22, 28 NET)

“The land” here is on this earth. David, like other prophets speaks of a time when the wicked will be removed...”wiped out”... as God had done before, whereas the oppressed will possess that same “land” and prosper due to his blessings. (Like the original Jews did in their Promised Land)

From what I am seeing, one of us is denying what scripture is saying and we each see the other’s responses as “ridiculous”.....stalemate. OK....?

Jesus will tell us all whose beliefs are “ridiculous”...and who has the truth (John 6:65)....we will be the last to know....and confidence is no indicator. Those whom Jesus rejects show their confidence in what they have accepted as their “Christian” Faith, even offering their excuses to the one judging them, yet he’s says to them, “I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness”. (Matt 7:21-23) No one wants to hear that....so they?

We choose our own destiny by our own choices......but the final choice belongs to Jesus.....that’s it.
Good response. Except Jesus said Heaven and earth will pass away. That doesn’t fit with your theology so you are trying to make it mean something else. It’s very clear, heaven and earth will pass away. Peter confirms it in 2 Peter 3:10-12. John confirmed it in Revelation 21:1. You have to jump through hoops to make it mean something other than what it says. Eschatology is not a salvation issue though. People can disagree about it and still be saved.
 

Aunty Jane

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Good response. Except Jesus said Heaven and earth will pass away.
Metaphorically yes, based on what the rest of the Bible says.
That doesn’t fit with your theology so you are trying to make it mean something else. It’s very clear, heaven and earth will pass away.
Metaphorically...yes. Not literally because the Bible itself confirms that the earth isn’t going anywhere. (Isa 45:18)
Peter confirms it in 2 Peter 3:10-12. John confirmed it in Revelation 21:1. You have to jump through hoops to make it mean something other than what it says.
You are jumping through your own hoops and ignoring all the scripture that proves your interpretation is incorrect.....again, that is your choice.
People can disagree about it and still be saved.
God’s people are united, not divided. Because God’s spirit is directing them, divisions cannot exist. (1 Cor 1:10)
First century Christianity was united and dissension was quickly dealt with so that peaceful unity was restored. The circumcision issue was a good example of that. All agreed with the direction of the governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and other elders.

Acts 15:28-29...
we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper....”
One body relayed one truth to all Christians.

Christianity was to be spread to “the most distant part of the earth” so this unity has to be global not isolated to one nation, or one local community or church.

God invites people of all nations to serve him, because this was what he promised Abraham...that “all nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from him. (Gen 22:18; Acts 10:34-35; 15:14; Gal 3:28)

Who are your brotherhood? Whose teachings do you follow?
 

RLT63

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Metaphorically yes, based on what the rest of the Bible says.

Metaphorically...yes. Not literally because the Bible itself confirms that the earth isn’t going anywhere. (Isa 45:18)

You are jumping through your own hoops and ignoring all the scripture that proves your interpretation is incorrect.....again, that is your choice.

God’s people are united, not divided. Because God’s spirit is directing them, divisions cannot exist. (1 Cor 1:10)
First century Christianity was united and dissension was quickly dealt with so that peaceful unity was restored. The circumcision issue was a good example of that. All agreed with the direction of the governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and other elders.

Acts 15:28-29...
we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper....”
One body relayed one truth to all Christians.

Christianity was to be spread to “the most distant part of the earth” so this unity has to be global not isolated to one nation, or one local community or church.

God invites people of all nations to serve him, because this was what he promised Abraham...that “all nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from him. (Gen 22:18; Acts 10:34-35; 15:14; Gal 3:28)

Who are your brotherhood? Whose teachings do you follow?
“One body relayed one truth to all Christians.” You sound very much like the Catholics. They claim they were that first Church.
 

RLT63

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Metaphorically yes, based on what the rest of the Bible says.

Metaphorically...yes. Not literally because the Bible itself confirms that the earth isn’t going anywhere. (Isa 45:18)

You are jumping through your own hoops and ignoring all the scripture that proves your interpretation is incorrect.....again, that is your choice.

God’s people are united, not divided. Because God’s spirit is directing them, divisions cannot exist. (1 Cor 1:10)
First century Christianity was united and dissension was quickly dealt with so that peaceful unity was restored. The circumcision issue was a good example of that. All agreed with the direction of the governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and other elders.

Acts 15:28-29...
we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper....”
One body relayed one truth to all Christians.

Christianity was to be spread to “the most distant part of the earth” so this unity has to be global not isolated to one nation, or one local community or church.

God invites people of all nations to serve him, because this was what he promised Abraham...that “all nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from him. (Gen 22:18; Acts 10:34-35; 15:14; Gal 3:28)

Who are your brotherhood? Whose teachings do you follow?
Let’s look at what Jesus said.
Mat 24:35 - Heaven and-earth shall pass away, but-my words shall not pass-away.
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Mar 13:31 - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but-my words shall not pass-away.
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Luk 21:33 - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but-my words shall not pass-away. The use of the word but is to contrast, Heaven and Earth shall pass away BUT my words shall not pass away. If what you are claiming is true he would have said “ Just as Heaven and Earth will not pass away neither will my words.” He was contrasting. Heaven and Earth are finite. His words are infinite. I have shown this message is clear throughout scripture.
 

RLT63

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Metaphorically yes, based on what the rest of the Bible says.

Metaphorically...yes. Not literally because the Bible itself confirms that the earth isn’t going anywhere. (Isa 45:18)

You are jumping through your own hoops and ignoring all the scripture that proves your interpretation is incorrect.....again, that is your choice.

God’s people are united, not divided. Because God’s spirit is directing them, divisions cannot exist. (1 Cor 1:10)
First century Christianity was united and dissension was quickly dealt with so that peaceful unity was restored. The circumcision issue was a good example of that. All agreed with the direction of the governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and other elders.

Acts 15:28-29...
we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper....”
One body relayed one truth to all Christians.

Christianity was to be spread to “the most distant part of the earth” so this unity has to be global not isolated to one nation, or one local community or church.

God invites people of all nations to serve him, because this was what he promised Abraham...that “all nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from him. (Gen 22:18; Acts 10:34-35; 15:14; Gal 3:28)

Who are your brotherhood? Whose teachings do you follow?
The Bible consistently warns us that this world will not last forever. “Heaven and earth will pass away,” Jesus said in Matthew 24:35. His statement was in the context of end times’ prophecies and the eternal nature of Jesus’ words: “My words will never pass away.” This means that trusting Jesus is wiser than trusting anything in this world.

Jesus also refers to the passing away of heaven and earth in Matthew 5:18. In Revelation 21:1, John writes of a new heaven and a new earth in the eternal state, having seen that “the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” (cf. Isaiah 65:17 and 2 Peter 3:13). To “pass away” is to disappear or be no more. This refers to the physical heaven and earth—the material world and all it contains—but not to the spirits/souls of the inhabitants of those places. Scripture is clear that people will outlast the current material universe, some in a state of eternal bliss and some in a state of eternal misery, and that the current universe will be replaced by another that will never know the contamination of sin.

The method of this world’s destruction is revealed in 2 Peter 3:10–12: “The day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire. . . . That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.” In Noah’s day, the world was destroyed with water, but God promised to send no more global floods (Genesis 9:11). In the Day of the Lord, the universe will be destroyed by fire.

The prophet Isaiah foretold the passing away of heaven and earth, too. “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree” (Isaiah 34:4). The Lord assures His people that, even as the heaven and earth are passing away, His salvation is secure: “The heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail” (Isaiah 51:6).

Knowing that heaven and earth will pass away gives us perspective in life. This world is not our home. “We are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13). Jesus tells us to have the proper priorities: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth. . . . But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven” (Matthew 6:19–20). And Peter, after reminding us of the temporary nature of this world, says, “Dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him” (2 Peter 3:14). (source Got Questions)
 
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RLT63

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Metaphorically yes, based on what the rest of the Bible says.

Metaphorically...yes. Not literally because the Bible itself confirms that the earth isn’t going anywhere. (Isa 45:18)

You are jumping through your own hoops and ignoring all the scripture that proves your interpretation is incorrect.....again, that is your choice.

God’s people are united, not divided. Because God’s spirit is directing them, divisions cannot exist. (1 Cor 1:10)
First century Christianity was united and dissension was quickly dealt with so that peaceful unity was restored. The circumcision issue was a good example of that. All agreed with the direction of the governing body in Jerusalem, made up of the apostles and other elders.

Acts 15:28-29...
we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, 26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper....”
One body relayed one truth to all Christians.

Christianity was to be spread to “the most distant part of the earth” so this unity has to be global not isolated to one nation, or one local community or church.

God invites people of all nations to serve him, because this was what he promised Abraham...that “all nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from him. (Gen 22:18; Acts 10:34-35; 15:14; Gal 3:28)

Who are your brotherhood? Whose teachings do you follow?
@Aunty Jane is this true? As far as the info about Russell ?Jehovah’s Witnesses views on Armageddon and Second Death, Part 1
 
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Aunty Jane

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The Bible consistently warns us that this world will not last forever. “Heaven and earth will pass away,” Jesus said in Matthew 24:35. His statement was in the context of end times’ prophecies and the eternal nature of Jesus’ words: “My words will never pass away.” This means that trusting Jesus is wiser than trusting anything in this world.

Jesus also refers to the passing away of heaven and earth in Matthew 5:18. In Revelation 21:1, John writes of a new heaven and a new earth in the eternal state, having seen that “the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” (cf. Isaiah 65:17 and 2 Peter 3:13). To “pass away” is to disappear or be no more. This refers to the physical heaven and earth—the material world and all it contains—but not to the spirits/souls of the inhabitants of those places. Scripture is clear that people will outlast the current material universe, some in a state of eternal bliss and some in a state of eternal misery, and that the current universe will be replaced by another that will never know the contamination of sin.
I think you are overlooking something important here.....the heavens and the earth referred to by these verses is not the physical earth or the literal heavens.
The "world" is the "kosmos".....so how is this word used in other scripture...?

1 John 2:15-17...
"Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."
What is "the world" here? Is it the world of mankind, or the literal planet?

Then there is John 3:16...
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

And James 4:4....
"Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God."

John 1:29...
"The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

What are you seeing in those verses...?
This is not a reference to the planet...it is the world of mankind.....some of whom God detests, and some of whom he loves.

"The earth" is what "the meek shall inherit".....a cleansed one, like Noah did. To even suggest that the whole universe needs replacing is nonsense.....there is not a single mention of that in scripture.....its talking about wicked humans and the ones who rule them. This is what will be destroyed.

The method of this world’s destruction is revealed in 2 Peter 3:10–12: “The day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire. . . . That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.” In Noah’s day, the world was destroyed with water, but God promised to send no more global floods (Genesis 9:11). In the Day of the Lord, the universe will be destroyed by fire.
No! Not the universe....just the wicked on this one planet......destroying the whole universe for the sins of humans on planet earth makes no sense.
The prophet Isaiah foretold the passing away of heaven and earth, too. “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree” (Isaiah 34:4). The Lord assures His people that, even as the heaven and earth are passing away, His salvation is secure: “The heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail” (Isaiah 51:6).
The "heavens" are the human ruling entities under the command of their god (2 Cor 4:3-4)....this is what will be destroyed when God reestablishes his rulership over the earth. We lost God's rulership in Eden, and Jesus came to get it back for us.

Daniel interpreted the Babylonian King's prophetic vision, after seeing a succession of world powers from Babylon all the way down to our day, Daniel said....Daniel 2:44....
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever".
This is what we are to expect...the removal of the devil's inspired rulership being replaced with God's rulership on a cleansed earth.
Knowing that heaven and earth will pass away gives us perspective in life. This world is not our home. “We are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13). Jesus tells us to have the proper priorities: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth. . . . But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven” (Matthew 6:19–20). And Peter, after reminding us of the temporary nature of this world, says, “Dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him” (2 Peter 3:14). (source Got Questions)
This world was always intended to be our home.....why do you think God put us here in the first place?
The devil ruined God's purpose for humanity temporarily but what God starts, he finishes....(Isa 55:11)
 

Aunty Jane

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@Aunty Jane is this true? As far as the info about Russell ?
Again?....we have been here before....if you want to know what JW's believe then go to the source.....those who want to believe everything some random person on the internet wants to post is at liberty to believe whatever they wish. Opposers especially those with an agenda, never tell the truth. And even if they do, it is a half truth that is skewed deliberately to alter perceptions. The tactics are old...the devil has no new tricks....he can rely on humans to fall for the same deceptions over and over again....

Ask you questions and I will answer them honestly....but please remember that we do not stay with old understanding, nor do we idolize men and put them on pedestals. We have no "founders"...we have shepherds who know their place....we believe that these represent the "faithful and wise servant" and that they understand that they don't own the sheep, nor do they have authority to bully them or to mistreat them.....they will answer to Jesus for what they teach and for how they guide those under their care. We are told to obey them, but these know that they have double accountability. (Hebrews 13:17) God's people have always had appointed shepherds....
 

RLT63

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Again?....we have been here before....if you want to know what JW's believe then go to the source.....those who want to believe everything some random person on the internet wants to post is at liberty to believe whatever they wish. Opposers especially those with an agenda, never tell the truth. And even if they do, it is a half truth that is skewed deliberately to alter perceptions. The tactics are old...the devil has no new tricks....he can rely on humans to fall for the same deceptions over and over again....

Ask you questions and I will answer them honestly....but please remember that we do not stay with old understanding, nor do we idolize men and put them on pedestals. We have no "founders"...we have shepherds who know their place....we believe that these represent the "faithful and wise servant" and that they understand that they don't own the sheep, nor do they have authority to bully them or to mistreat them.....they will answer to Jesus for what they teach and for how they guide those under their care. We are told to obey them, but these know that they have double accountability. (Hebrews 13:17) God's people have always had appointed shepherds....
Again?....we have been here before....if you want to know what JW's believe then go to the source.....those who want to believe everything some random person on the internet wants to post is at liberty to believe whatever they wish. Opposers especially those with an agenda, never tell the truth. And even if they do, it is a half truth that is skewed deliberately to alter perceptions. The tactics are old...the devil has no new tricks....he can rely on humans to fall for the same deceptions over and over again....

Ask you questions and I will answer them honestly....but please remember that we do not stay with old understanding, nor do we idolize men and put them on pedestals. We have no "founders"...we have shepherds who know their place....we believe that these represent the "faithful and wise servant" and that they understand that they don't own the sheep, nor do they have authority to bully them or to mistreat them.....they will answer to Jesus for what they teach and for how they guide those under their care. We are told to obey them, but these know that they have double accountability. (Hebrews 13:17) God's people have always had appointed shepherds....
The JW website looks like it was Russell but when you read it it says JWs had no founder but Jesus
 
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RLT63

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Again?....we have been here before....if you want to know what JW's believe then go to the source.....those who want to believe everything some random person on the internet wants to post is at liberty to believe whatever they wish. Opposers especially those with an agenda, never tell the truth. And even if they do, it is a half truth that is skewed deliberately to alter perceptions. The tactics are old...the devil has no new tricks....he can rely on humans to fall for the same deceptions Before we begin this discussion, we should first like to clear up a common misconception, one which has been fostered no less by the Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves, it involves who the founder of the organization was and what teachings or materials the organization uses in their study and interpretation of the scriptures.

“Contrary to what is generally propagated by both orthodoxy and the JW’s themselves, Pastor Russell was not the founder of this religious group. He was never associated with them, nor did he ever claim the name. Pastor Russell died in 1916, while the "Jehovah's Witnesses" did not come into existence until 1931. Linking Pastor Russell with "Jehovah's Witnesses" leaves the decidedly mistaken view that their teachings and beliefs are alike. Such is not the case.

Pastor Russell founded what has been called "The Bible Student's Association." This movement had its beginning in the 1860's in Allegheny, Pa. when some earnest Christians formed a Bible class for advanced Bible study to meet the then rising wave of infidelity. In 1879, Zion's Watch Tower Society was formed, later knows asThe Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

This Society however WAS NOT the central authority for the Bible Students, for all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Society only served to coordinate the activities of the various congregations.

After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916 the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed completely. The teachings of the six volumes of "Studies in The Scriptures", which Pastor Russell wrote on in regards to the bible, were discarded. Those congregations who were in harmony with the New Society relinquished their congregational or self-rule. Thus, the New Societybecame the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty.

Basic doctrines of the Society seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell, and before long Judge Rutherford, (the new head of the society) whom the Pastor had dismissed from his staff prior to his death, seized legal control of the Society, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors and established dictatorial control, subsequently declaring that those associated with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were from hence forth to be referred to as"Jehovah's Witnesses" on this earth. Here is where the name emerged -- certainly not in Pastor Russell's time.

The new society sued for the right to the nameWatch Tower Bible and Tract Societyand since the Lord had taught that brethren should not sue brethren, those who exited the society refused to contest the matter, and so today the JW’s retain the right to this name.

Every so often you will note that I may quote some material from the old reprints, the old Watch Towers, for example R2557 or something akin, however bear in mind that these old Towers are NOT the ones which the Society presently uses, these old Towers as well as the Studies in the Scriptures series were long since discarded by the Society, although they may still keep a few copies around in their libraries for historical reference only.

After Pastor Russell's death, The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society began to rise as a hierarchy over the once independent congregations. Many refused to surrender their Christian liberty and here started the work of separation. As early as 1917this exodus from the Society began, by 1918 one-fourth of all the original Bible Students had left Rutherford and his dictatorial policies preferring rather to respect the truth as it was presented in the teachings of the late Pastor Russell today these are known as “Associated Bible Students” or just “Bible Students” if you will.

Between 1925 and 1931 Judge Rutherford embarked on a campaign to purge Russell’s followers from the new society and so by the time the new organization had adopted the name Jehovah’s Witnesses over three fourths of those formerly associated with the Bible Students movement in Pastor Russell’s day who remained faithful to his teachings had completely separated themselves from Rutherford and the new society known as the JW’s.

The picture is clear to the unbiased mind, the historical data revels beyond a doubt that Bible Students founded by Pastor Russell and Jehovah’s Witnesses founded by Judge Rutherford are two separate movements all together, it is only on account of ignorance and personal prejudice that some continue to dispute this. Even yet there is one point that tends to be confusing and contradictory,

Why do some JW’s continue to refer to Pastor Russell as their founder?

Certainly, it is not because they agree with his basic teachings. In fact, they so vigorously disagree with his basic teachings that
they have time and time again categorized us Bible Students as the evil servant classwho will in the final judgment be eventually annihilated eternally.

This alone should be enough to convince our critics that we are not associated with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

What is the sin of Pastor Russell and his Bible Students movement that makes them so evil in their eyes?

What is the abominable sin that they have committed that merits eternal destruction?

The answer is simply that Bible Students still hold on to the Biblical teachings of Pastor Russell! That means that, therefore they reject Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doctrines. To the JW’s the basic teachings of Bible Students are gross error, worthy of eternal judgment
.

Thus, doesn’t it seem a bit absurd for the JW’s to claim Pastor Russell as their founder, when they believe that he taught errors.

So why do they claim him anyway?

For one reason and one simple reason alone is this claim made
, “historic depth”. As a Christian church, the JW’s are neophytes. Since the JW’s only began in 1931, they need historic credibility. Imagine in the 1930s, ’40s or ’50s, saying, “Our Christian group only began in 1931.” To claim Pastor Russell as their founder, however would project them back into the 1800s as a Christian group. (After all, a number of Christian churches had their beginnings in the 1800s.) As evidence of their sensitivity to historic depth, they do aone-upon all religious groups by claiming that Able, Adam’s son wasthe first Jehovah’s Witness. This is really reaching for historic depth! But pretense of historic depth means nothing.

The historic facts are clear, Pastor Russell founded the Bible Students in the 1870s, and Judge Rutherford founded the JW’s in 1931.

Just to illustrate the point, Lutherans and Roman Catholics share a common lineage simply because Lutherans broke away from the Papacy, but nevertheless they are two separate churches. Lutherans believe in Martin Luther’s teachings and the Catholics believe in the teachings of the popes. Merely because the lineage of the Lutherans’ goes back to the popes does not mean the popes are the founders of Lutherans’, no more than merely because the JW’s lineage goes back to Pastor Russell means that he was their founder.

There are however a few similarities of belief between Bible Students and JW’s, but this is not uncommon, Baptist and Presbyterians share common beliefs, so too do Methodist and Adventist. To say that Bible Students and JW’s are the same merely because of their obvious similarities is inaccurate. Just as Baptist and Presbyterians believe in eternal torment as the wages of sin, Bible Students and JW’s (as well as Seventh Day Adventist) believe that the wages of sin is eternal annihilation, but this similarity does not make them the same group nor more than the similarity between the Baptist and Presbyterians made them the same group.

In any case, it is well to observe that Bible Students feel most JW’s are noble-minded people and are just as likely as other people to enjoy the blessings of God’s eternity, we only wished they shared such kindly feelings toward us!

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The Learner

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Jesus tells his four disciples in Matthew 24 that they will witness the abomination of desolation. Why would have lied to them about that?
Currious about the Math, this is my guess

Jesus died around 33 AD
Assuming Jesus said that in 33 AD
It happened in 70 AD
70-33 = 37 years difference
Assuming the disciples were 13 years old, then in 70 AD they would be around 50, very possible.
 
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The Learner

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@RLT63 your desperation is evident.....and you are free to believe all of that if you wish.....but please understand that there is no “rapture” ever mentioned in the Bible. That is a word invented by Christendom.

During Christ’s “presence” all of his elect were to be resurrected....those who died last were not to be resurrected before all of the first ones chosen, who had been “sleeping” in their graves since the first century. They were not resurrected before Christ was installed as King, foreseen by Daniel some 500 years before Christ came into the world as Messiah. (Daniel 7:13-14)

David prophesied that Messiah (his Lord) was to sit at God’s right hand “until” his enemies were made to be “a stool for his feet”. (Psalm 110:1-2) His rulership was to begin “in the midst of his enemies”. So instead of seeing Christ coming on the clouds to destroy his enemies, it shows that he will be “present” way before that, overseeing the work that he gave his disciples to do. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)

And according to people’s response to their preaching, he will be observing who are behaving as “sheep” and who, like “goats”, would be treating his disciples in the same way as the Pharisees and those influenced by them, treated them in the first century.....in the same way that people treated Noah and scorned his message. (Matt 24:37-39)
Judaism and Christendom are mirror images of one another....both corrupted by the same entity. Both masquerading as the true religion, but hopelessly divided in their apostasy. Both connected to Jesus in the same way.
History is repeating, and no one seems to notice.

God has everything very carefully planned, including the timing of all events. So, why did it take thousands of years for Christ to come to earth as a human after Adam threw all his children under the bus? Why has it taken almost 2,000 years for Christ to return? Do you know?

Look at history and see that time is actually our greatest enemy....given enough time, our common enemy, who has been operative since our beginning, can ever so gradually turn truth into lies, and lies into truth.....but for God’s true worshippers, time will not alter his truth. That is why we have a Bible....the truth that time cannot alter....unless people want it to....or can be convinced that there is no alteration.
Deception is deception....isn’t it? Do the deceived know that they are until it’s too late?

Is the “Christianity” that people accept and practice today, the same as the one Christ began? We first have to ask, “which one”. Whose word do you take for how to determine whose got it right? How much time has the devil had to play with? Who gets to find the diamond in the pile of broken glass? Only those to whom God chooses to reveal his truth. (John 6:44; 65)
We will all find that out very soon as we watch the world falling apart at the seams....and understand why God has allowed us all to experience the greatest object lesson we will ever be taught.
Dear Aunt, the concept of the Rapture is here in bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 3:10 - Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 
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The Learner

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Daniel’s prophecies about the abomination of desolation
A little history, I think.

2 Maccabees Chapter 14
a Three years later,* Judas and his companions learned that Demetrius, son of Seleucus, had sailed into the port of Tripolis with a powerful army and a fleet,
2
and that he had occupied the country, after doing away with Antiochus and his guardian Lysias.

3
A certain Alcimus, a former high priest,* who had willfully incurred defilement before the time of the revolt, realized that there was no way for him to be safe and regain access to the holy altar.
4
So he went to King Demetrius around the one hundred and fifty-first year and presented him with a gold crown and a palm branch, as well as some of the customary olive branches from the temple. On that day he kept quiet.b
5
But he found an opportunity to further his mad scheme when he was invited to the council by Demetrius and questioned about the dispositions and intentions of the Jews. He replied:
6
“Those Jews called Hasideans, led by Judas Maccabeus,* are warmongers, who stir up sedition and keep the kingdom from enjoying peace.c
7
For this reason, now that I am deprived of my ancestral dignity, that is to say, the high priesthood, I have come here,
8
first, out of my genuine concern for the king’s interests, and second, out of consideration for my own compatriots, since our entire nation is suffering no little affliction from the rash conduct of the people just mentioned.
9
When you have informed yourself in detail on these matters, O king, provide for our country and its hard-pressed people with the same gracious consideration that you show toward all.
10
As long as Judas is around, it is impossible for the government to enjoy peace.”
11
When he had said this, the other Friends who were hostile to Judas quickly added fuel to Demetrius’ indignation.

Dealings with Nicanor.
12
d The king immediately chose Nicanor, who had been in command of the elephants, and appointed him governor of Judea. He sent him off
13
with orders to put Judas to death, to disperse his followers, and to set up Alcimus as high priest of the great temple.
14
The Gentiles from Judea, who had fled before Judas, flocked to Nicanor, thinking that the misfortunes and calamities of the Jews would mean prosperity for themselves.

15
e When the Jews heard of Nicanor’s coming, and that the Gentiles were rallying to him, they sprinkled themselves with earth and prayed to him who established his people forever, and who always comes to the aid of his heritage by manifesting himself.
16
At their leader’s command, they set out at once from there and came upon the enemy at the village of Adasa.
17
Judas’ brother Simon had engaged Nicanor, but he suffered a slight setback because of the sudden appearance of the enemy.

18
However, when Nicanor heard of the valor of Judas and his companions, and the great courage with which they fought for their country, he shrank from deciding the issue by bloodshed.
19
So he sent Posidonius, Theodotus and Mattathias to exchange pledges of friendship.
20
After a long discussion of the terms, each leader communicated them to his troops; and when general agreement was expressed, they assented to the treaty.
21
A day was set on which the leaders would meet by themselves. From each side a chariot came forward, and thrones were set in place.
22
Judas had posted armed men in readiness at strategic points for fear that the enemy might suddenly commit some treachery. But the conference was held in the proper way.

23
Nicanor stayed on in Jerusalem, where he did nothing out of place. He disbanded the throngs of people who gathered around him;
24
and he always kept Judas in his company, for he felt affection* for the man.
25
He urged him to marry and have children; so Judas married and settled into an ordinary life.

Nicanor’s Threat Against Judas.
26
When Alcimus saw their mutual goodwill, he took the treaty that had been made, went to Demetrius, and said that Nicanor was plotting against the government, for he had appointed Judas, that conspirator against the kingdom, as his successor.
27
Stirred up by the villain’s slander, the king became enraged. He wrote to Nicanor, stating that he was displeased with the treaty, and ordering him to send Maccabeus at once as a prisoner to Antioch.
28
When this message reached Nicanor he was dismayed and troubled at the thought of annulling his agreement with a man who had done no wrong.
29
However, there was no way of opposing the king, so he watched for an opportunity to carry out this order by a stratagem.
30
But Maccabeus, noticing that Nicanor was more harsh in his dealings with him, and acting with unaccustomed rudeness when they met, concluded that this harshness was not a good sign. So he gathered together not a few of his men, and went into hiding from Nicanor.

31
f When Nicanor realized that he had been cleverly outwitted by the man, he went to the great and holy temple, at a time when the priests were offering the customary sacrifices, and ordered them to surrender Judas.
32
As they declared under oath that they did not know where the man they sought was,
33
he stretched out his right arm toward the temple and swore this oath: “If you do not hand Judas over to me as prisoner, I will level this shrine of God to the ground; I will tear down the altar, and erect here a splendid temple to Dionysus.”

34
With these words he went away. The priests stretched out their hands toward heaven, calling upon the unfailing defender of our nation in these words:
35
“Lord of all, though you are in need of nothing, you were pleased to have a temple for your dwelling place among us.
36
Therefore, Holy One, Lord of all holiness, preserve forever undefiled this house, which has been so recently purified.”g

Martyrdom of Razis.*
37
A certain Razis, one of the elders of Jerusalem, was denounced to Nicanor as a patriot. A man highly regarded, he was called a father of the Jews because of his goodwill toward them.
38
In the days before the revolt, he had been convicted of being a Jew, and had risked body and soul in his ardent zeal for Judaism.
39
Nicanor, to show his disdain for the Jews, sent more than five hundred soldiers to arrest him.
40
He thought that by arresting that man he would deal the Jews a hard blow.

41
But when the troops, on the point of capturing the tower, were forcing the outer gate and calling for fire to set the door ablaze, Razis, now caught on all sides, turned his sword against himself,
42
preferring to die nobly* rather than fall into the hands of vile men and suffer outrages unworthy of his noble birth.
43
In the excitement of the struggle he failed to strike exactly. So while the troops rushed in through the doors, he gallantly ran up to the top of the wall and courageously threw himself down into the crowd.
44
But as they quickly drew back and left an opening, he fell into the middle of the empty space.
45
Still breathing, and inflamed with anger, he got up and ran through the crowd, with blood gushing from his frightful wounds. Then, standing on a steep rock,
46
as he lost the last of his blood, he tore out his entrails and flung them with both hands into the crowd, calling upon the Lord of life and of spirit to give these back to him again. Such was the manner of his death.h

* [14:1] Three years later: actually, Demetrius (I Soter), son of Seleucus (IV), landed at Tripolis in the year 151 of the Seleucid era (1 Mc 14:4), i.e., 162/161 B.C.; cf. 1 Mc 7:1–7.

* [14:3] Alcimus, a former high priest: he was apparently appointed high priest by Antiochus V after Menelaus was executed, and then deposed for collaborating with the Seleucids.

* [14:6] Hasideans, led by Judas Maccabeus: according to 1 Mc 2:42 and 7:12–17, the Hasideans were a party separate from the Maccabees.

* [14:24] Affection: compare 1 Mc 7:26–32, where there is no hint of this cordial relationship between Nicanor and Judas.

* [14:37–46] The story of Razis belongs to the “martyrology” class of literature; it is similar to the stories in 6:18–7:42.

* [14:42] Die nobly: Razis’s willingness to die nobly rather than to fall into enemy hands had a precedent in Saul (1 Sm 31:4). Razis took his life because he was convinced that God would restore his body in the resurrection of the dead (see 7:11, 22–23; 14:46).

a. [14:1–11] 1 Mc 7:1–7.

b. [14:4] 1 Mc 7:5–7, 25.

c. [14:6] 1 Mc 2:42; 7:12–17.

d. [14:12–13] 2 Mc 8:9; 1 Mc 3:38; 7:26–27.

e. [14:15–19] 1 Mc 7:26–32.

f. [14:31–36] 1 Mc 7:30–38.

g. [14:36] 2 Mc 15:34.

h. [14:46] 2 Mc 7:9–11.
 

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2 Maccabees​

Chapter 4​

The Simon mentioned above as the informer about the funds against his own country slandered Onias as the one who incited Heliodorus and instigated the whole miserable affair.
2
He dared to brand as a schemer against the government the man who was the benefactor of the city, the protector of his compatriots, and a zealous defender of the laws.
3
When Simon’s hostility reached such a pitch that murders were being committed by one of his henchmen,
4
Onias saw that the opposition was serious and that Apollonius, son of Menestheus, the governor of Coelesyria and Phoenicia, was abetting Simon’s wickedness.
5
So he had recourse to the king, not as an accuser of his compatriots, but as one looking to the general and particular good of all the people.
6
He saw that without royal attention it would be impossible to have a peaceful government, and that Simon would not desist from his folly.

Jason as High Priest.
7
But Seleucus died,* and when Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes succeeded him on the throne, Onias’ brother Jason obtained the high priesthood by corrupt means:a
8
in an interview, he promised the king three hundred and sixty talents of silver, as well as eighty talents from another source of income.
9
Besides this he would undertake to pay a hundred and fifty more, if he was given authority to establish a gymnasium and a youth center* for it and to enroll Jerusalemites as citizens of Antioch.

10
When Jason received the king’s approval and came into office, he immediately initiated his compatriots into the Greek way of life.
11
He set aside the royal concessions granted to the Jews through the mediation of John, father of Eupolemus* (that Eupolemus who would later go on an embassy to the Romans to establish friendship and alliance with them); he set aside the lawful practices and introduced customs contrary to the law.b
12
c With perverse delight he established a gymnasium* at the very foot of the citadel, where he induced the noblest young men to wear the Greek hat.
13
The craze for Hellenism and the adoption of foreign customs reached such a pitch, through the outrageous wickedness of Jason, the renegade and would-be high priest,
14
that the priests no longer cared about the service of the altar. Disdaining the temple and neglecting the sacrifices, they hastened, at the signal for the games, to take part in the unlawful exercises at the arena.
15
What their ancestors had regarded as honors they despised; what the Greeks esteemed as glory they prized highly.
16
For this reason they found themselves in serious trouble: the very people whose manner of life they emulated, and whom they desired to imitate in everything, became their enemies and oppressors.
17
It is no light matter to flout the laws of God, as subsequent events will show.

18
When the quinquennial games were held at Tyre in the presence of the king,
19
the vile Jason sent representatives of the Antiochians of Jerusalem, to bring three hundred silver drachmas for the sacrifice to Hercules. But the bearers themselves decided that the money should not be spent on a sacrifice, as that was not right, but should be used for some other purpose.
20
So the contribution meant for the sacrifice to Hercules by the sender, was in fact applied to the construction of triremes* by those who brought it.

21
When Apollonius, son of Menestheus, was sent to Egypt for the coronation of King Philometor,* Antiochus learned from him that the king was opposed to his policies. He took measures for his own security; so after going to Joppa, he proceeded to Jerusalem.
22
There he was received with great pomp by Jason and the people of the city, who escorted him with torchlights and acclamations; following this, he led his army into Phoenicia.

Menelaus as High Priest.
23
Three years later Jason sent Menelaus,* brother of the aforementioned Simon, to deliver the money to the king, and to complete negotiations on urgent matters.
24
But after his introduction to the king, he flattered him with such an air of authority that he secured the high priesthood for himself, outbidding Jason by three hundred talents of silver.
25
He returned with the royal commission, but with nothing that made him worthy of the high priesthood; he had the temper of a cruel tyrant and the rage of a wild beast.
26
So Jason, who had cheated his own brother and now saw himself cheated by another man, was driven out as a fugitive to the country of the Ammonites.
27
But Menelaus, who obtained the office, paid nothing of the money he had promised to the king,
28
in spite of the demand of Sostratus, the commandant of the citadel, whose duty it was to collect the taxes. For this reason, both were summoned before the king.
29
Menelaus left his brother Lysimachus as his deputy in the high priesthood, while Sostratus left Crates, commander of the Cypriots.d

Murder of Onias.
30
While these things were taking place, the people of Tarsus and Mallus* rose in revolt, because their cities had been given as a gift to Antiochis, the king’s concubine.
31
So the king hastened off to settle the affair, leaving Andronicus, one of his nobles, as his deputy.
32
Menelaus, for his part, thinking this a good opportunity, stole some gold vessels from the temple and presented them to Andronicus; he had already sold other vessels in Tyre and in the neighboring cities.
33
When Onias had clear evidence, he accused Menelaus publicly, after withdrawing to the inviolable sanctuary at Daphne, near Antioch.
34
Thereupon Menelaus approached Andronicus privately and urged him to seize Onias. So Andronicus went to Onias, treacherously reassuring him by offering his right hand in oath, and persuaded him, in spite of his suspicions, to leave the sanctuary. Then, with no regard for justice, he immediately put him to death.

35
As a result, not only the Jews, but many people of other nations as well, were indignant and angry over the unjust murder of the man.
36
When the king returned from the region of Cilicia, the Jews of the city,* together with the Greeks who detested the crime, went to see him about the murder of Onias.
37
Antiochus was deeply grieved and full of pity; he wept as he recalled the prudence and noble conduct of the deceased.
38
Inflamed with anger, he immediately stripped Andronicus of his purple robe, tore off his garments, and had him led through the whole city to the very place where he had committed the outrage against Onias; and there he put the murderer to death. Thus the Lord rendered him the punishment he deserved.
...
 

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2 Maccabees Chapter 6
Abolition of Judaism.
1
a Not long after this the king sent an Athenian senator* to force the Jews to abandon the laws of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God,
2
also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus,* and the one on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Host to Strangers, as the local inhabitants were wont to be.b
3
This was a harsh and utterly intolerable evil.
4
The Gentiles filled the temple with debauchery and revelry; they amused themselves with prostitutes and had intercourse with women even in the sacred courts. They also brought forbidden things into the temple,c
5
so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws.

6
No one could keep the sabbath or celebrate the traditional feasts, nor even admit to being a Jew.
7
Moreover, at the monthly celebration of the king’s birthday the Jews, from bitter necessity, had to partake of the sacrifices, and when the festival of Dionysus* was celebrated, they were compelled to march in his procession, wearing wreaths of ivy.d

8
Following upon a vote of the citizens of Ptolemais, a decree was issued ordering the neighboring Greek cities to adopt the same measures, obliging the Jews to partake of the sacrifices
9
and putting to death those who would not consent to adopt the customs of the Greeks. It was obvious, therefore, that disaster had come upon them.
10
Thus, two women who were arrested for having circumcised their children were publicly paraded about the city with their babies hanging at their breasts and then thrown down from the top of the city wall.e
11
Others, who had assembled in nearby caves to observe the seventh day in secret, were betrayed to Philip and all burned to death. In their respect for the holiness of that day, they refrained from defending themselves.f

God’s Purpose.
12
g Now I urge those who read this book not to be disheartened by these misfortunes, but to consider that these punishments were meant not for the ruin but for the correction of our nation.
13
It is, in fact, a sign of great kindness to punish the impious promptly instead of letting them go for long.
14
h Thus, in dealing with other nations, the Sovereign Lord patiently waits until they reach the full measure of their sins before punishing them; but with us he has decided to deal differently,
15
in order that he may not have to punish us later, when our sins have reached their fullness.
16
Therefore he never withdraws his mercy from us. Although he disciplines us with misfortunes, he does not abandon his own people.
17
Let these words suffice for recalling this truth. Without further ado we must go on with our story.

Martyrdom of Eleazar.
18
* Eleazar, one of the foremost scribes, a man advanced in age and of noble appearance, was being forced to open his mouth to eat pork.i
19
But preferring a glorious death to a life of defilement, he went forward of his own accord to the instrument of torture,
20
spitting out the meat as they should do who have the courage to reject food unlawful to taste even for love of life.

21
Those in charge of that unlawful sacrifice took the man aside, because of their long acquaintance with him, and privately urged him to bring his own provisions that he could legitimately eat, and only to pretend to eat the sacrificial meat prescribed by the king.
22
Thus he would escape death, and be treated kindly because of his old friendship with them.
23
But he made up his mind in a noble manner, worthy of his years, the dignity of his advanced age, the merited distinction of his gray hair, and of the admirable life he had lived from childhood. Above all loyal to the holy laws given by God, he swiftly declared, “Send me to Hades!”

24
“At our age it would be unbecoming to make such a pretense; many of the young would think the ninety-year-old Eleazar had gone over to an alien religion.
25
If I dissemble to gain a brief moment of life, they would be led astray by me, while I would bring defilement and dishonor on my old age.
26
Even if, for the time being, I avoid human punishment, I shall never, whether alive or dead, escape the hand of the Almighty.
27
Therefore, by bravely giving up life now, I will prove myself worthy of my old age,
28
and I will leave to the young a noble example of how to die willingly and nobly for the revered and holy laws.”

He spoke thus, and went immediately to the instrument of torture.
29
Those who shortly before had been kindly disposed, now became hostile toward him because what he had said seemed to them utter madness.j
30
When he was about to die under the blows, he groaned, saying: “The Lord in his holy knowledge knows full well that, although I could have escaped death, I am not only enduring terrible pain in my body from this scourging, but also suffering it with joy in my soul because of my devotion to him.”
31
This is how he died, leaving in his death a model of nobility and an unforgettable example of virtue not only for the young but for the whole nation.

* [6:1] Athenian senator: or, Geron the Athenian, since geron can also be a proper name.

* [6:2] Olympian Zeus: equated with the Syrian Baal Shamen (“the lord of the heavens”), a term which the Jews mockingly rendered as shiqqus shomem, “desolating abomination” (Dn 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; 1 Mc 1:54).

* [6:7] Dionysus: also called Bacchus, the god of the grape harvest and of wine; ivy was one of his symbols.

* [6:18–7:42] The stories of Eleazar and of the mother and her seven sons, among the earliest models of “martyrology,” were understandably popular. Written to encourage God’s people in times of persecution, they add gruesome details to the record of tortures, and place long speeches in the mouths of the martyrs.

a. [6:1] 1 Mc 1:41–63.

b. [6:2] 1 Mc 1:46, 54; Dn 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.

c. [6:4] Ez 23:36–49; Dn 11:31; Am 2:7.

d. [6:7] 1 Mc 1:58–59.

e. [6:10] 1 Mc 1:60–61.

f. [6:11] 1 Mc 2:32–38.

g. [6:12–16] 2 Mc 5:17; 7:16–19, 32–38.

h. [6:14] Wis 11:9–10; 12:2, 22.

i. [6:18] Lv 11:6–8.

j. [6:29] Wis 3:1–4; 5:4.
 

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1 Maccabees Chapter 6
a As King Antiochus passed through the eastern provinces, he heard that in Persia there was a city, Elam,* famous for its wealth in silver and gold,
2
and that its temple was very rich, containing gold helmets, breastplates, and weapons left there by the first king of the Greeks, Alexander, son of Philip, king of Macedon.
3
He went therefore and tried to capture and loot the city. But he could not do so, because his plan became known to the people of the city
4
who rose up in battle against him. So he fled and in great dismay withdrew from there to return to Babylon.

5
While he was in Persia, a messenger brought him news that the armies that had gone into the land of Judah had been routed;
6
that Lysias had gone at first with a strong army and been driven back; that the people of Judah had grown strong by reason of the arms, wealth, and abundant spoils taken from the armies they had cut down;
7
that they had pulled down the abomination which he had built upon the altar in Jerusalem; and that they had surrounded with high walls both the sanctuary, as it had been before, and his city of Beth-zur.b

8
When the king heard this news, he was astonished and very much shaken. Sick with grief because his designs had failed, he took to his bed.
9
There he remained many days, assailed by waves of grief, for he thought he was going to die.
10
So he called in all his Friends and said to them: “Sleep has departed from my eyes, and my heart sinks from anxiety.
11
I said to myself: ‘Into what tribulation have I come, and in what floods of sorrow am I now! Yet I was kindly and beloved in my rule.’
12
But I now recall the evils I did in Jerusalem, when I carried away all the vessels of silver and gold that were in it, and for no cause gave orders that the inhabitants of Judah be destroyed.
13
I know that this is why these evils have overtaken me; and now I am dying, in bitter grief, in a foreign land.”

14
Then he summoned Philip, one of his Friends, and put him in charge of his whole kingdom.
15
He gave him his diadem, his robe, and his signet ring, so that he might guide the king’s son Antiochus and bring him up to be king.
16
So King Antiochus died there in the one hundred and forty-ninth year.*
17
When Lysias learned that the king was dead, he set up the king’s son Antiochus,* whom he had reared as a child, to be king in his place; and he gave him the title Eupator.c

Siege of the Citadel.
18
Those in the citadel were hemming Israel in around the sanctuary, continually trying to harm them and to strengthen the Gentiles.d
19
And so Judas planned to destroy them, and assembled the people to besiege them.
20
So in the one hundred and fiftieth year* they assembled and besieged the citadel, for which purpose he constructed platforms and siege engines.
21
But some of the besieged escaped, and some renegade Israelites joined them.
22
They went to the king and said: “How long will you fail to do justice and to avenge our kindred?
23
We agreed to serve your father and to follow his orders and obey his edicts.
24
And for this our own people have become our enemies; they have put to death as many of us as they could find and have seized our inheritances.
25
They have acted aggressively not only against us, but throughout their whole territory.
26
Look! Today they have besieged the citadel in Jerusalem in order to capture it, and they have fortified the sanctuary and Beth-zur.
27
Unless you act quickly to prevent them, they will do even worse things than these, and you will not be able to stop them.”

28
e When the king heard this he was enraged, and he called together all his Friends, the officers of his army, and the commanders of the cavalry.
29
Mercenary forces also came to him from other kingdoms and from the islands of the seas.
30
His army numbered a hundred thousand footsoldiers, twenty thousand cavalry, and thirty-two elephants trained for war.
31
They passed through Idumea and camped before Beth-zur. For many days they attacked it; they constructed siege engines, but the besieged made a sortie and burned these, and they fought bravely.

Battle of Beth-zechariah.
32
Then Judas marched away from the citadel and moved his camp to Beth-zechariah,* opposite the king’s camp.
33
The king, rising before dawn, moved his force hastily along the road to Beth-zechariah; and the troops prepared for battle and sounded the trumpet.
34
They made the elephants drunk on the juice of grapes and mulberries to get them ready to fight.
35
The beasts were distributed along the phalanxes, each elephant having assigned to it a thousand men in coats of mail, with bronze helmets on their heads, and five hundred picked cavalry.
36
These accompanied the beast wherever it was; wherever it moved, they moved too and never left it.
37
Each elephant was outfitted with a strong wooden tower, fastened to it by a harness; each tower held three soldiers who fought from it, besides the Indian driver.
38
The remaining cavalry were stationed on one or the other of the two flanks of the army, to harass the enemy and to be protected by the phalanxes.
39
When the sun shone on the gold and bronze shields, the mountains gleamed with their brightness and blazed like flaming torches.
40
Part of the king’s army spread out along the heights, while some were on low ground, and they marched forward steadily in good order.
41
All who heard the noise of their numbers, the tramp of their marching, and the clanging of the arms, trembled; for the army was very great and strong.

42
Judas with his army advanced to fight, and six hundred men of the king’s army fell.
43
Eleazar, called Avaran, saw one of the beasts covered with royal armor and bigger than any of the others, and so he thought the king was on it.f
44
He gave up his life to save his people and win an everlasting name for himself.
45
He dashed courageously up to it in the middle of the phalanx, killing men right and left, so that they parted before him.
46
He ran under the elephant, stabbed it and killed it. The beast fell to the ground on top of him, and he died there.
47
But when Judas’ troops saw the strength of the royal army and the ardor of its forces, they retreated from them.

The Siege of Jerusalem.
48
Some of the king’s army went up to Jerusalem to attack them, and the king established camps in Judea and at Mount Zion.
49
He made peace with the people of Beth-zur, and they evacuated the city, because they had no food there to enable them to withstand a siege, for that was a sabbath year in the land.* g
50
The king took Beth-zur and stationed a garrison there to hold it.
51
For many days he besieged the sanctuary, setting up platforms and siege engines, fire-throwers, catapults and mechanical bows for shooting arrows and projectiles.
52
The defenders countered by setting up siege engines of their own, and kept up the fight a long time.
53
But there were no provisions in the storerooms, because it was the seventh year, and the reserves had been eaten up by those who had been rescued from the Gentiles and brought to Judea.
54
Few men remained in the sanctuary because the famine was too much for them; the rest scattered, each to his own home.

Peace Treaty.
55
h Lysias heard that Philip, whom King Antiochus, before his death, had appointed to train his son Antiochus to be king,
56
had returned from Persia and Media with the army that accompanied the king, and that he was seeking to take over the government.
57
So he hastily decided to withdraw. He said to the king, the leaders of the army, and the soldiers: “We are growing weaker every day, our provisions are scanty, the place we are besieging is strong, and it is our duty to take care of the affairs of the kingdom.i
58
Therefore let us now come to terms with these people and make peace with them and all their nation.
59
Let us grant them freedom to live according to their own laws as formerly; it was on account of their laws, which we abolished, that they became enraged and did all these things.”

60
The proposal pleased the king and the leaders; he sent peace terms to the Jews, and they accepted.
61
So the king and the leaders swore an oath to them, and on these terms the Jews evacuated the fortification.
62
But when the king entered Mount Zion and saw how the place was fortified, he broke the oath he had sworn and gave orders to tear down the encircling wall.
63
Then he departed in haste and returned to Antioch, where he found Philip in control of the city. He fought against him and took the city by force.

* [6:1] Elam: in fact, the mountainous region north of the Persian Gulf, rather than a city. The city may have been Persepolis. This section continues the story from 3:37 and pertains to events preceding those in 4:37–39.

* [6:16] The one hundred and forty-ninth year: September 22, 164, to October 9, 163 B.C. A Babylonian list of the Seleucid kings indicates that Antiochus died in November or early December of 164, about the same time as the rededication of the Temple.

* [6:17] The king’s son Antiochus: Antiochus V Eupator (“of a good father”), then about nine years old. He was in Antioch, still in the charge of Lysias, who proceeded to govern and wage wars in his name. Both were put to death two years later, when Demetrius, brother of Antiochus IV, arrived to claim the kingship; cf. 7:1–3.

* [6:20] The one hundred and fiftieth year: October, 163, to September, 162 B.C.

* [6:32] Beth-zechariah: south of Jerusalem, and six miles north of Beth-zur.

* [6:49] A sabbath year in the land: when sowing and reaping were prohibited (Ex 23:10–11; Lv 25:2–7). The year without a harvest (autumn of 164 to autumn of 163) was followed by a food shortage.

a. [6:1–13] 2 Mc 1:13–17; 9:1–29; Dn 11:40–45.

b. [6:7] 1 Mc 1:54; 4:41–61.

c. [6:17] 2 Mc 10:10–11.

d. [6:18] 1 Mc 1:33–36.

e. [6:28–54] 2 Mc 13:1–26.

f. [6:43] 2 Mc 13:15.

g. [6:49] Lv 25:1–7.

h. [6:55–63] 2 Mc 13:23–26.

i. [6:57] 2 Mc 11:13–15.
 

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1 Maccabees Chapter 1
From Alexander to Antiochus.

1a After Alexander the Macedonian, Philip’s son, who came from the land of Kittim,* had defeated Darius, king of the Persians and Medes, he became king in his place, having first ruled in Greece.
2He fought many battles, captured fortresses, and put the kings of the earth to death.
3He advanced to the ends of the earth, gathering plunder from many nations; the earth fell silent before him, and his heart became proud and arrogant.
4He collected a very strong army and won dominion over provinces, nations, and rulers, and they paid him tribute.



5But after all this he took to his bed, realizing that he was going to die.
6So he summoned his noblest officers, who had been brought up with him from his youth, and divided his kingdom among them while he was still alive.
7Alexander had reigned twelve years* when he died.



8So his officers took over his kingdom, each in his own territory,
9and after his death they all put on diadems,* and so did their sons after them for many years, multiplying evils on the earth.



10There sprang from these a sinful offshoot, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus, once a hostage at Rome. He became king in the one hundred and thirty-seventh year* of the kingdom of the Greeks.


Lawless Jews.

11b In those days there appeared in Israel transgressors of the law who seduced many, saying: “Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles all around us; since we separated from them, many evils have come upon us.”
12The proposal was agreeable;
13some from among the people promptly went to the king, and he authorized them to introduce the ordinances of the Gentiles.
14Thereupon they built a gymnasium* in Jerusalem according to the Gentile custom.
15They disguised their circumcision and abandoned the holy covenant; they allied themselves with the Gentiles and sold themselves to wrongdoing.


Antiochus in Egypt.

16c When his kingdom seemed secure, Antiochus undertook to become king of the land of Egypt and to rule over both kingdoms.
17He invaded Egypt with a strong force, with chariots, elephants* and cavalry, and with a large fleet,
18to make war on Ptolemy,* king of Egypt. Ptolemy was frightened at his presence and fled, and many were wounded and fell dead.
19The fortified cities in the land of Egypt were captured, and Antiochus plundered the land of Egypt.


Robbery of the Temple.

20d After Antiochus had defeated Egypt in the one hundred and forty-third year,* he returned and went up against Israel and against Jerusalem with a strong force.
21He insolently entered the sanctuary* and took away the golden altar, the lampstand for the light with all its utensils,
22the offering table, the cups and bowls, the golden censers, and the curtain. The cornices and the golden ornament on the facade of the temple—he stripped it all off.
23And he took away the silver and gold and the precious vessels; he also took all the hidden treasures he could find.
24Taking all this, he went back to his own country. He shed much blood and spoke with great arrogance.




25And there was great mourning throughout all Israel,




26and the rulers and the elders groaned.


Young women and men languished,

and the beauty of the women faded.



27Every bridegroom took up lamentation,


while the bride sitting in her chamber mourned,



28And the land quaked on account of its inhabitants,


and all the house of Jacob was clothed with shame.

Attack and Occupation.

29e Two years later, the king sent the Mysian commander* to the cities of Judah, and he came to Jerusalem with a strong force.
30He spoke to them deceitfully in peaceful terms, and they believed him. Then he attacked the city suddenly, in a great onslaught, and destroyed many of the people in Israel.
31He plundered the city and set fire to it, demolished its houses and its surrounding walls.
32And they took captive the women and children, and seized the animals.
33Then they built up the City of David with a high, strong wall and strong towers, and it became their citadel.*
34There they installed a sinful race, transgressors of the law, who fortified themselves inside it.
35They stored up weapons and provisions, depositing there the plunder they had collected from Jerusalem, and they became a great snare.




36The citadel became an ambush against the sanctuary,


and a wicked adversary to Israel at all times.



37They shed innocent blood around the sanctuary;


they defiled the sanctuary.



38Because of them the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled away,


she became the abode of strangers.

She became a stranger to her own offspring,

and her children forsook her.



39f Her sanctuary became desolate as a wilderness;


her feasts were turned into mourning,

Her sabbaths to shame,

her honor to contempt.



40As her glory had been, so great was her dishonor:


her exaltation was turned into mourning.

Religious Persecution.

41g Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people,
42and abandon their particular customs. All the Gentiles conformed to the command of the king,
43and many Israelites delighted in his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath.