The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

All of Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 is about the millennium. Ezekiel’s temple is the temple in the millennial kingdom.

What?

1. Do you believe in a rebuilt Jewish temple in a future millennium?
2. Do you advocate the return of animal sacrifices as sin offerings in the future in a future millennium?
3. Do you hold to the restoration of the old covenant priesthood in a future millennium?

 

[WPM]

All of Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 is about the millennium. Ezekiel’s temple is the temple in the millennial kingdom.

Where is a millennium mentioned in Isaiah?

 

[The Light]

Again, you totally avoided every single point I made in my last post. That is what you do. That is what you must do because you have nothing to counteract the truth.

LOL. You avoided the points that I made.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 14 is before the second coming. Isaiah 2 is speaking about the last days, which occurs before the second coming. Obviously you have nothing.

Revelation 14 shows Jesus standing on Mt. Zion. His presence in Jerusalem is evidence that the second coming has taken place.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 14 shows Jesus standing on Mt. Zion. His presence in Jerusalem is evidence that the second coming has taken place.

Oh. You think this is the millennium. We agree then. We are in that intra-advent period. Welcome to the truth camp.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where in Rev 20 does it say that "for a thousand years, Israel will be able to live in peace without fear of being attacked by her enemies. Even when Satan is released, his armies will be destroyed by fire"? Premils seem to live in. a fantasy land of what they have been taught.

It's simple logic. If you stand on the street corner and watch the lights turn colors, you can deduce, fairly quickly the meaning of the colors. When the lights turn red the cars stop. When the lights turn green the cars move forward. And when the lights turn yellow, the cars speed up.

In the same way, we know and understand the purpose of Satan's imprisonment based on a comparison between what he does while free and what he does while imprisoned. What does Satan do immediately upon being released? He deceives the nations into attacking the saints.

From the Jewish perspective, the gospel includes God's covenant faithfulness, including his promise to gather them back to the land and protect them from their enemies. Early Jewish converts to Christianity understood this. Luke included this aspect of the good news in his gospel. Jesus will lead the 144k in peace and prosperity for a thousand years.

Read Luke chapter 1, verses 67-79.

 

[WPM]

It's simple logic. If you stand on the street corner and watch the lights turn colors, you can deduce, fairly quickly the meaning of the colors. When the lights turn red the cars stop. When the lights turn green the cars move forward. And when the lights turn yellow, the cars speed up.

In the same way, we know and understand the purpose of Satan's imprisonment based on a comparison between what he does while free and what he does while imprisoned. What does Satan do immediately upon being released? He deceives the nations into attacking the saints.

From the Jewish perspective, the gospel includes God's covenant faithfulness, including his promise to gather them back to the land and protect them from their enemies. Early Jewish converts to Christianity understood this. Luke included this aspect of the good news in his gospel. Jesus will lead the 144k in peace and prosperity for a thousand years.

Read Luke chapter 1, verses 67-79.

Where is Israel mentioned in Revelation 20? Answer this. Stop avoiding!

 

[CadyandZoe]

The nations of the world that were once blinded before the cross have now have been opened up to the light and truth of the Gospel - and there is nothing Satan can do to stop it.

Although Jesus is the light of the world and Christian converts benefit from his enlightenment, Jesus designated the Holy Spirit as the chief cause of enlightenment worldwide. Jesus calls him "the Spirit of truth." Even so, Satan's kingdom of darkness remains and Satan is still the prince of the power of the air. And Apostles such as Peter warn against a Devil that is free to roam and devour. 1 Peter 5:8

Whilst Satan still carries the power to deceive individuals, he has lost the ability to keep the Gentiles (ethnos) as a collective whole blinded.

Maybe. But that is beside the point John is making in Revelation 20. He speaks about a time when Satan will not be able to deceive the nations so as to bring them against Israel.

Satan is not bound, he still roams around like a lion. Since he does, he is not bound.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so, it lifted the deception that was blinding the Gentiles as a whole. That was it. You are imputing something into that that does not exist.

On the contrary, that is what Amillennialism did.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where is Israel mentioned in Revelation 20? Answer this. Stop avoiding!

My Bible is about 2 inches thick. It contains more than Revelation 20. I'm sure your Bible contains more than one chapter. Try asking a real question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Look at your drivers license. It does not say ended, but expiration.

The beast-king's rule would continue, if not ended by Jesus.

Show your timeline chart of what ends the beast-king's rule of 42 months.

LOL. Ridiculous. You got caught in a contradiction and now you're trying to backpedal. Unbelievable. You are constantly trying to make scripture say what you want it to say. You can't be taken seriously.

 

[Keraz]

Do you believe in a rebuilt Jewish temple in a future millennium?

Yes; a new Temple dedicated to God. As Paul says in 2 Thess 2:4.

Do you advocate the return of animal sacrifices as sin offerings in the future in a future millennium?

Many Prophesies tell us there will be, once again sacrifices and offerings, God does not change.

Do you hold to the restoration of the old covenant priesthood in a future millennium?

Rev 5:10 is clear: We Christians will be His Priests. Isaiah 66:21

Where is a millennium mentioned in Isaiah?

Isaiah 2:2-4 and Isaiah 65:18-25

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where is Israel mentioned in Revelation 20? Answer this. Stop avoiding!

Getting straightforward answers from some of these people is like pulling teeth. They can't answer simple questions. That says it all.

 

[IndianaRob]

What?

1. Do you believe in a rebuilt Jewish temple in a future millennium?
2. Do you advocate the return of animal sacrifices as sin offerings in the future in a future millennium?
3. Do you hold to the restoration of the old covenant priesthood in a future millennium?

No I don’t believe any of that garbage. Ezekiel’s temple is using earthly things to describe heavenly things.

The temple in Ezekiel is the temple in heavenly Jerusalem…. “living waters” flow out of Ezekiel’s temple, living waters flow out of Jesus.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

The temple in heavenly Jerusalem is Jesus.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

[IndianaRob]

Where is a millennium mentioned in Isaiah?

I’m tied up right now I probably won’t post again until tomorrow.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes; a new Temple dedicated to God. As Paul says in 2 Thess 2:4.

Nonsense. Such a temple would never be called "the temple of God" in scripture. Paul would not call it "the temple of God" unless God Himself would call it His temple. You are sadly mistaken.

Many Prophesies tell us there will be, once again sacrifices and offerings, God does not change.

Nonsense! This is a complete insult to the "once for all" sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross which made the old covenant sacrifices and offerings obsolete (Hebrews 8-10)! Surely, what He made obsolete will not be reinstated. Is Hebrews 8-10 in your Bible? You are sadly mistaken.

Rev 5:10 is clear: We Christians will be His Priests. Isaiah 66:21

It says we have been MADE priests already just like Revelation 1:6 says.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.

If we already are priests, as this verse indicates, then it means it's saying we are reigning and will continue to reign on the earth.

As Peter said, we ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).

You are sadly mistaken.

Isaiah 2:2-4 and Isaiah 65:18-25

What are you saying about this? Isaiah 2:2-4 is about "the last days" which have been ongoing since the first coming of Christ. Peter alluded to the day of Pentecost as occurring as part of the last days (Acts 2:16-21 per Joel 2:28-32) and the last days lead up to the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4).

As for Isaiah 65:18-25, how deceptive you are! Leaving off Isaiah 65:17 which shows that Isaiah 65:18-25 is about the new heavens and new earth and not about an imaginary earthly kingdom following Christ's return.

You are sadly mistaken.

 

[WPM]

My Bible is about 2 inches thick. It contains more than Revelation 20. I'm sure your Bible contains more than one chapter. Try asking a real question.

So, where is a future thousand years mentioned anywhere else in this Book after the second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really? Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.



The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

He foolishly thought Satan being bound long ago was absurd because he is too lazy to study scripture beyond the surface. But, scripture is clear that Jesus bound Satan long ago. It specifically teaches that Jesus bound the strong man, representing Satan, and spoiled his house! Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) and He did not fail! That is what made the way for salvation to come to the Gentiles who previously had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-13). Jesus took the power of death away from Satan and set free many who had previously been held captive to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15).

Premils do not understand that there is no new doctrine introduced in the book of Revelation that isn't taught elsewhere in scripture. That includes the binding of Satan.

 

[WPM]

Yes; a new Temple dedicated to God. As Paul says in 2 Thess 2:4.

Many Prophesies tell us there will be, once again sacrifices and offerings, God does not change.

Rev 5:10 is clear: We Christians will be His Priests. Isaiah 66:21

Isaiah 2:2-4 and Isaiah 65:18-25

Isa 2 is the last days. Isa 65 is the NHNE. You are an expert at twisting the Word and applying it to this imaginary period.

The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialists. They wrongly and strongly promote the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in their future millennial temple (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They also advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

This is despite the fact that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, and can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest instruction or allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. This will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premillennialism invention! Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It teaches: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

 

[WPM]

Although Jesus is the light of the world and Christian converts benefit from his enlightenment, Jesus designated the Holy Spirit as the chief cause of enlightenment worldwide. Jesus calls him "the Spirit of truth." Even so, Satan's kingdom of darkness remains and Satan is still the prince of the power of the air. And Apostles such as Peter warn against a Devil that is free to roam and devour. 1 Peter 5:8


Maybe. But that is beside the point John is making in Revelation 20. He speaks about a time when Satan will not be able to deceive the nations so as to bring them against Israel.

Satan is not bound, he still roams around like a lion. Since he does, he is not bound.

Isaiah 9:1-2 predicted the Messiah and the massive effective of the spread of the Gospel to the nations: “the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Luke 2:27-32: “And he (Simeon) came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46-48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 26:17: "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Romans 15:8-12 records: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.