The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

You then think when the last trumpet sounds, that in that same split second the great white throne judgment begins and concludes? Why not let context guide you here instead?

That's exactly what I did, so that's a ridiculous question to ask me.

Death obviously still exists after the last trumpet sounds, the fact there are lost people still alive after the last trumpet sounds. And until all of them are dead first and that they then rise from the dead, there can't be the great white throne judgment in the meantime.

LOL. What? The last/seventh trumpet signals several things which happen at that point. If 1 Cor 15:51-52 is any indication, they all happen very quickly. When it sounds believers' bodies are all changed but also it signals that Jesus "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" at that point (Rev 11:18). That will happen very quickly where it will all seem to happen at basically the same time. So, the last/seventh trumpet is indeed when "death will be swallowed up in victory" and will be destroyed. Once we are all changed to have immortal bodies and all the living unsaved are killed, then no one will physically die ever again after that. To think that Paul was not alluding in 1 Cor 15:54 to what he had previously said in 1 Cor 15:26 can only be a result of doctrinal bias.

When Christ comes that will be "the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" (1 Cor 15:22-24). Do you believe that Jesus will come at the end of the age? This is what He said will happen at that end of the age:

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Can you see here that "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" at the end of the age, which is when Jesus will return (Matt 24:3)? He calls it "the kingdom of their Father" because He will have delivered the kingdom that He has been reigning over since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6) to the Father when He comes at the end of the age.

So, IOW, what you are apparently trying to apply universally about death being swallowed up in victory is not being applied universally at all, it is only being applied to those that have gotten victory through Christ. Nothing, as in zero, pertaining to 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is being applied to any of the lost, especially this---Death is swallowed up in victory, and one reason why is this-- But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ(verse 57) . No one could possibly think verse 57 also applies to the lost that get cast into the LOF, right?

No one should think that Paul was not alluding to the last enemy, death, being defeated when he talked about it being swallowed up in victory. Yes, Paul was saying that in relation to believers in 1 Cor 15:54, but does it make any sense to think that if believers would never die again after that point, unbelievers would? When it says at the seventh trumpet it's the time to destroy those wh odestroy the earth, will any unbelievers be excepted from that? No. Why would they be? So, who exactly will die after the day when the last/seventh trumpet sounds?

Quit saying that there is no more death once the last trumpet sounds, since that is being dishonest with the text, the fact the last trumpet obviously sounds before all the lost back on earth are even dead first,

Don't tell me what to do. Again, if 1 Cor 15:51-52 is any indication, then the lost on earth will all be killed quickly. As Paul said in 1 Thess 5:2-3, "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not esape". So, in my view, we will all be changed and the living dead will all be killed before the last/seventh trumpet finishes sounding since that will all take place within a moment or two in my view.

So, I will NOT quit saying that there is no more death once the last trumpet sounds. All you have to try to refute Amil is trying to do it on technicalities like this, which does not make for a convincing argument.

If you really want to refute Amil, then explain to me exactly what mortals will supposedly survive the second coming of Christ and why. Can you do that?

 

[WPM]

We all make mistakes.

The book of Revelation uses symbols to convey its messages, often drawing on imagery from other Biblical prophesies. It's important to remember that these messages are not just symbols, but truths that we can confidently interpret.

Revelation 20:2-3 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

The terms "dragon" and "serpent" are symbolic, representing the being known as "the devil" and "Satan", who will be bound — literally — so he can no longer deceive the nations.

The binding of Satan renders him unable to deceive anyone. Since he is still able to deceive; he has not yet been bound.

Not so, it lifted the deception that was blinding the Gentiles as a whole. That was it. You are imputing something into that that does not exist.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, who do you think you're kidding here? Did I ask you to give evidence to support your belief that the one hour and 42 months represent the same time period? No, I did not. And you know it.

I am asking you if the "one hour" of Revelation 17:12, which you believe symbolically represents the 42 months of Rev 13:5, expires? Yes or no?

It does not expire, it gets ended by Jesus's return. The rule of the beast-king for 42 months is not like a 4 year term of office for the President of the United States.

 

[WPM]

This idea is taught in several places in the Bible. In the book of Revelation, the idea is taught in chapter 14.

Lol. Obviously you do not have anything. You add that on to the Book of Revelation to support your error.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, you are incredibly dishonest. Don't change the subject. You won't even answer a simple question because you know that you were caught in a contradiction and are too prideful to admit it. You indicated that the thousand years has to be literal because it expires. You then said the one hour is symbolic and represents the 42 months of Rev 13:5.

So, using the same logic that you use to determine that the thousand years is literal would mean the "one hour" would have to be literal as well if it expires. So, does it expire or not? Why won't you answer that simple and straightforward question? Your lack of willingness to answer it says it all. You know that the one hour expires since you know that the 42 months that you believe it symbolically represents expires, but you can't admit that this means the logic you use to determine that the thousand years is literal is flawed since you don't even apply that same logic to the "one hour" of Revelation 17:12.

Show your timeline chart of what ends the 42 months.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lol. Obviously you do not have anything. You add that on to the Book of Revelation to support your error.

Read chapter 14. But as I say, the idea is found many places in the Bible including the parables of Jesus and the OT prophets. All you need is one mention in the Bible for it to be true.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so, it lifted the deception that was blinding the Gentiles as a whole. That was it. You are imputing something into that that does not exist.

Exactly. He is trying to make the argument that Satan can somehow be literally bound with a chain, which is ridiculous since Satan is not a physical being. Premils miss that John is portraying a dragon being bound with a physical chain in a physical pit/prison and that symbolically represents the binding of Satan. To think that it's describing Satan as being literally, physically bound is just ludicrous.

The following also refers to Satan being bound.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Would anyone try to suggest that Jesus was talking about literally, physically binding Satan here? No, of course they wouldn't. So, why do they interpret Revelation 20 that way? Only because of doctrinal bias.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so, it lifted the deception that was blinding the Gentiles as a whole. That was it. You are imputing something into that that does not exist.

Did you not understand what I said? Since Satan continues to deceive people, he is not yet bound. 1 + 1 = 2?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Show your timeline chart of what ends the 42 months.

LOL. Why won't you answer my simple question? Can't admit that your logic is flawed? Do you believe the symbolic "one hour" of Revelation 17:12 expires or not? Yes or no?

Your avoidance of answering that question speaks volumes about your dishonesty and pride which prevents you from acknowledging your contradictory and inconsistent approach to interpreting the book of Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It does not expire, it gets ended by Jesus's return. The rule of the beast-king for 42 months is not like a 4 year term of office for the President of the United States.

LOL!!!!!! It does not expire, but gets ended? LOL!!!!! I'm pretty sure if "it gets ended" that means it expires. LOL!!!! Your dishonest and contradictory approach to interpreting the book of Revelation has been exposed.

It's completely contradictory to claim that the thousand years has to be literal because it expires and then claim that the "one hour" of Rev 17:12 that you equate with the 42 months (Rev 13:5) is symbolic even though that time will expire, also. You ridiculously claim "it does not expire" despite the fact that it ends when Jesus returns. In what world is the word "ended" not a synonym of the word "expired", Douggg?

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you really want to refute Amil, then explain to me exactly what mortals will supposedly survive the second coming of Christ and why. Can you do that?

There are two groups of mortal survivors: Jewish survivors who will call upon the name of the Lord at that time and the rest of the nations who will survive the battle of Armageddon.

 

[WPM]

Read chapter 14. But as I say, the idea is found many places in the Bible including the parables of Jesus and the OT prophets. All you need is one mention in the Bible for it to be true.

Oh, so that is now your millennium? Lol.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you not understand what I said? Since Satan continues to deceive people, he is not yet bound. 1 + 1 = 2?

It's not referring to his general ability to deceive, but rather his ability to keep "the power of death" that he used to keep the people of the world as slaves to the fear of death in OT times. Jesus took the power of death away from Him with His death on the cross (Heb 2:14-15). The world was held captive to the fear of death before that when they had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12). That was before Christ came and shed His blood to bring them near and give them the hope of eternal life (Eph 2:13). He had to bind Satan and take the power of death away from him in order for that to happen.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh, so that is now your millennium? Lol.

Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he can't deceive the nations. He is currently deceiving the nations, so he is not bound, and the thousand years have not begun. During the same period that Satan is bound, Jesus will rule over the nations with a rod of iron from Mt. Zion. The following passage briefly depicts this.

Revelation 14:1-3 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Here, John depicts Jesus standing on Mount Zion and with him one hundred and forty-four thousand. These Jews have the name of Jesus and the name of the Father written on their foreheads. And they sing a new song. What does this mean?

Currently, the Jews are symbolically singing the song of Moses and perhaps they also literally sing the song as recorded in Deuteronomy. The NEW song they sing is the song that Jesus will teach them. They will sing both the song of Moses and the song of Jesus. (Revelation 15:3)

During the Millennial Period, people will come to meet with Jesus to learn from him.

Isaiah 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

I could multiply passages, but as I say, I only need to supply one to prove the point.

 

[Douggg]

LOL!!!!!! It does not expire, but gets ended? LOL!!!!! I'm pretty sure if "it gets ended" that means it expires. LOL!!!! Your dishonest and contradictory approach to interpreting the book of Revelation has been exposed.

It's completely contradictory to claim that the thousand years has to be literal because it expires and then claim that the "one hour" of Rev 17:12 that you equate with the 42 months (Rev 13:5) is symbolic even though that time will expire, also. You ridiculously claim "it does not expire" despite the fact that it ends when Jesus returns. In what world is the word "ended" not a synonym of the word "expired", Douggg?

Look at your drivers license. It does not say ended, but expiration.

The beast-king's rule would continue, if not ended by Jesus.

Show your timeline chart of what ends the beast-king's rule of 42 months.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's not referring to his general ability to deceive, but rather his ability to keep "the power of death" that he used to keep the people of the world as slaves to the fear of death in OT times. Jesus took the power of death away from Him with His death on the cross (Heb 2:14-15). The world was held captive to the fear of death before that when they had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-12). That was before Christ came and shed His blood to bring them near and give them the hope of eternal life (Eph 2:13). He had to bind Satan and take the power of death away from him in order for that to happen.

It says that he will not be able to deceive the nations. Everything you just said about what Satan is NOT able to do, he is currently doing.

Edit to add: John specifies the content of his deception later in the chapter.

Revelation 20:7-10 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

John's point is to say that for a thousand years, Israel will be able to live in peace without fear of being attacked by her enemies. Even when Satan is released, his armies will be destroyed by fire.

Israel is not living without fear from her enemies. Therefore Satan is not bound and the Millennium hasn't begun yet.

 

[IndianaRob]

It says that he will not be able to deceive the nations. Everything you just said about what Satan is NOT able to do, he is currently doing.

I agree 100%. Of all the crazy things I’ve heard on forums, to say that Satan is currently bound is absurd.

 

[WPM]

Satan is bound for a thousand years so that he can't deceive the nations. He is currently deceiving the nations, so he is not bound, and the thousand years have not begun. During the same period that Satan is bound, Jesus will rule over the nations with a rod of iron from Mt. Zion. The following passage briefly depicts this.

Revelation 14:1-3 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Here, John depicts Jesus standing on Mount Zion and with him one hundred and forty-four thousand. These Jews have the name of Jesus and the name of the Father written on their foreheads. And they sing a new song. What does this mean?

Currently, the Jews are symbolically singing the song of Moses and perhaps they also literally sing the song as recorded in Deuteronomy. The NEW song they sing is the song that Jesus will teach them. They will sing both the song of Moses and the song of Jesus. (Revelation 15:3)

During the Millennial Period, people will come to meet with Jesus to learn from him.

Isaiah 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

I could multiply passages, but as I say, I only need to supply one to prove the point.

Revelation 14 is before the second coming. Isaiah 2 is speaking about the last days, which occurs before the second coming. Obviously you have nothing.

 

[WPM]

I agree 100%. Of all the crazy things I’ve heard on forums, to say that Satan is currently bound is absurd.

Really? Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[WPM]

It says that he will not be able to deceive the nations. Everything you just said about what Satan is NOT able to do, he is currently doing.

Edit to add: John specifies the content of his deception later in the chapter.

Revelation 20:7-10 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

John's point is to say that for a thousand years, Israel will be able to live in peace without fear of being attacked by her enemies. Even when Satan is released, his armies will be destroyed by fire.

Israel is not living without fear from her enemies. Therefore Satan is not bound and the Millennium hasn't begun yet.

Where in Rev 20 does it say that "for a thousand years, Israel will be able to live in peace without fear of being attacked by her enemies. Even when Satan is released, his armies will be destroyed by fire"? Premils seem to live in. a fantasy land of what they have been taught.