The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

 

[IndianaRob]

I have heard that argument countless times. Contrary to that argument....

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah in John 12:12-15. Four days later, He was crucified. So the all within one week.

That the 7 years is still unfulfilled is found in Ezekiel 39. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the destruction of Gog's armies is the 7 year 70th week, which the prince who shall come, shall confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.

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Ezk 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Doug you can’t see that the verse below is the fulfillment of the verse above?

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[WPM]

I never said that Revelation 4:1-2 was the actual rapture. I am not saying that the rapture/resurrection is explicitly found in any verse in Revelation.


Give the specific Revelation chapter and verse that has the rapture/resurrection event explicitly in it. I am not going to get bogged down in examining/disucssing an essay of all your rationale, reasoning, interpretations. Just give me the Revelation chapter and verse that has the rapture/resurrection event explicitly in it.

Did you hit those links I gave?

 

[WPM]

I have heard that argument countless times. Contrary to that argument....

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah in John 12:12-15. Four days later, He was crucified. So the all within one week.

That the 7 years is still unfulfilled is found in Ezekiel 39. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the destruction of Gog's armies is the 7 year 70th week, which the prince who shall come, shall confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.

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Pretribbers cannot show us a single rapture passage that shows a seven year tribulation (or any length of tribulation) following Christ’s return or a third coming following that.

They rather resort to long-fulfilled ancient Old Testament non-rapture prophecies that do not even (1) mention the Church, (2) mention a rapture, (3) mention a period of tribulation, or (4) mention a third coming.

This whole theory is messed up. It is fabricated. It is a distortion of truth. It is heavily unbiblical.

 

[WPM]

David, you are rationalizing.

I am asking for a verse(s) in Revelation that clearly, explicitly, has the rapture/resurrection event in it it.

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world antichrist system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

 

[Davidpt]

Ezk 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Doug you can’t see that the verse below is the fulfillment of the verse above?

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The only way you can be correct here is if you can convincingly prove that God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude prior to when Acts 2:16-17 is meaning.

To me it is undeniably crystal clear in Ezekiel 39 that verse 29 can't come to pass until after God has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude first.

IOW, what you are proposing is making nonsense of the chronology in Ezekiel 39 unless you can convincingly prove that God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude prior to when Acts 2:16-17 is meaning.

In Ezekiel 39 the chronology is this. God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. And because of that it eventually leads to what is recorded in verse 29. And not this instead. First verse 29 is fulfilled, followed by God eventually executing His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.


As can be seen in this block of text, God has been hiding His face from the house of Israel meant here all the way up until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

 

[Douggg]

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world antichrist system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

In Revelation 14, Jesus, having a sickle, will destroy the armies surrounding Jerusalem at His Second Coming.

To destroy the rest of the armies, those armies stacked up in the rest of Israel, an angel, given a sickle for the same purpose, will destroy those armies, and the blood will flow deep for 1600 furlongs - 200 miles, the north-south length of Israel.

Now give me the Revelation chapter and verse that has rapture/resurrection event, clearly and explicitly, in it.

 

[Douggg]

Ezk 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Doug you can’t see that the verse below is the fulfillment of the verse above?

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ezekiel 39:29 does not take place until after Israel has spent 7 months burying the dead of Gog's army in a massive grave site to be called Hamongog. Ezekiel 39:11-12.

That grave site does not exist yet, because Ezekiel 39 is still future.

 

[IndianaRob]

The only way you can be correct here is if you can convincingly prove that God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude prior to when Acts 2:16-17 is meaning.

To me it is undeniably crystal clear in Ezekiel 39 that verse 29 can't come to pass until after God has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude first.

IOW, what you are proposing is making nonsense of the chronology in Ezekiel 39 unless you can convincingly prove that God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude prior to when Acts 2:16-17 is meaning.

In Ezekiel 39 the chronology is this. God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. And because of that it eventually leads to what is recorded in verse 29. And not this instead. First verse 29 is fulfilled, followed by God eventually executing His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.


As can be seen in this block of text, God has been hiding His face from the house of Israel meant here all the way up until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

I believe it was fulfilled at Pentecost because Peter said it was fulfilled at Pentecost. The only way around that would be to say that God poured out his spirit on Pentecost and then at a latter date took his spirit away and then at another later date poured out his spirit again…. I think we would both agree that didn’t happen or never will happen.

Are you familiar with the account of the crucifixtion of Christ in Psalm 18?

If you are familiar with that prophecy then you know absolutely nothing that was prophesied in Psalm 18 is recorded in the crucifixtion account in the gospels.

That being said, the events that happened in Ezekiel 38 and 39 happened between the cross and the ascension of Christ with the caveat that the clean up of 7 months went beyond that time.

Keep in mind that just because none of that was mentioned in the New Testament doesn’t mean it didn’t happen just like nothing from Psalm 22 being mentioned in the gospels doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Basically I’m saying that Psalm 18 gives a partial view of what happened at the cross and Ezekiel 38 and 39 gives a partial view of what happened.

If you’re not familiar (I wasn’t until a couple of years ago) with Psalm 18, here it is.

Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.


Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.


Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.


Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.


Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.


Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.


Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.


Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.


Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.


Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.


Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.


Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.


Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.


Psa 18:17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.

 

[IndianaRob]

Ezekiel 39:29 does not take place until after Israel has spent 7 months burying the dead of Gog's army in a massive grave site to be called Hamongog. Ezekiel 39:11-12.

That grave site does not exist yet, because Ezekiel 39 is still future.

I know you’re not saying Peter lied but he said it was fulfilled, how can you go against something so plainly stated as being fulfilled?

Do you not believe God poured out his spirit on Pentecost?

Do you believe God poured out his spirit on Israel at Pentecost then takes his spirit away and then pours out his spirit on Israel again at a later date.

How do you justify this? I’m just curious, it kind of blows my mind that you take this position.

 

[Douggg]

Pretribbers cannot show us a single rapture passage that shows a seven year tribulation (or any length of tribulation) following Christ’s return or a third coming following that.

They rather resort to long-fulfilled ancient Old Testament non-rapture prophecies that do not even (1) mention the Church, (2) mention a rapture, (3) mention a period of tribulation, or (4) mention a third coming.

This whole theory is messed up. It is fabricated. It is a distortion of truth. It is heavily unbiblical.

You have not proven that the rapture could not - possibly, might, - happen before the 7 year 70th week begins.

 

[Douggg]

I know you’re not saying Peter lied but he said it was fulfilled, how can you go against something so plainly stated as being fulfilled?

Do you not believe God poured out his spirit on Pentecost?

Do you believe God poured out his spirit on Israel at Pentecost then takes his spirit away and then pours out his spirit on Israel again at a later date.

How do you justify this? I’m just curious, it kind of blows my mind that you take this position.

Ezekiel 39:29 is Jesus speaking in the text after having returned to this earth in Ezekiel 39:21, His Second Coming.

During the 7 years following Gog/Magog, the Jews who do not presently believe that Jesus is the Lord their God made manifest by entering this world, to take on the body of a man, will in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10, change - and will believe upon Jesus and the gospel of salvation. And will have God's Spirit poured out on them for the remainder of the 7 years.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Verse 23, Jesus is talking about the house of Israel went into captivity because they took part in Jesus's crucifixion. As a result, for the past 2000 years, the Jews have died at the hands of their enemies.

 

[Davidpt]

You have not proven that the rapture could not - possibly, might, - happen before the 7 year 70th week begins.

Your argument is not valid to @WPM to begin with since he does not take the 70th week to still be future. IOW, you two are not even remotely on the same page here. You need to be arguing with someone who at least agrees that the 70th week is still future.

 

[Davidpt]

I believe it was fulfilled at Pentecost because Peter said it was fulfilled at Pentecost. The only way around that would be to say that God poured out his spirit on Pentecost and then at a latter date took his spirit away and then at another later date poured out his spirit again…. I think we would both agree that didn’t happen or never will happen.

Are you familiar with the account of the crucifixtion of Christ in Psalm 18?

If you are familiar with that prophecy then you know absolutely nothing that was prophesied in Psalm 18 is recorded in the crucifixtion account in the gospels.

That being said, the events that happened in Ezekiel 38 and 39 happened between the cross and the ascension of Christ with the caveat that the clean up of 7 months went beyond that time.

Keep in mind that just because none of that was mentioned in the New Testament doesn’t mean it didn’t happen just like nothing from Psalm 22 being mentioned in the gospels doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Basically I’m saying that Psalm 18 gives a partial view of what happened at the cross and Ezekiel 38 and 39 gives a partial view of what happened.

If you’re not familiar (I wasn’t until a couple of years ago) with Psalm 18, here it is.

Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.


Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.


Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.


Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.


Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.


Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.


Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.


Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.


Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.


Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.


Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.


Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.


Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.


Psa 18:17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.

I'm sorry, I just don't get how you can see the cross anywhere in Psalms 18 when the very first verse is already telling us what this Psalms is in regards to.

Psalms 18:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said,>> I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

David and Saul actually lived during the same era of time. Neither of them lived during the days of Christ.

 

[The Light]

the pre-trib rapture view - the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

I do not agree with this statement, and I believe there will be a pretrib rapture.

Noah is sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood. I believe that means that the 70th week will be started before the Church is raptured. I do not think that the seals will be opened before the Church is in heaven as we can see in Revelation 5.

 

[IndianaRob]

I'm sorry, I just don't get how you can see the cross anywhere in Psalms 18 when the very first verse is already telling us what this Psalms is in regards to.

Psalms 18:1 <<TPsalms 18:1>> I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

David and Saul actually lived during the same era of time. Neither of them lived during the days of Christ.

I'm sorry I just assumed everybody knew much of the things about David were prophetically talking about Jesus. I don't see how we can continue this discussion if you don't think Psalm 18 is about Jesus.

 

[jeffweeder]

In John 14:3, Jesus did not call his coming again - as being a second time, nor being His Second Coming. And the place that Jesus talked about going in John 14:2 is heaven. And the Way for us to be taken to heaven where His Father is - is in John 14:6....

1) Jesus came a first time,
2) told his disciples he was leaving
3) said he would return to receive them to himself.
In other words, he would come a second time.... simple

I am focusing on..... Jesus coming to take us to heaven - where the mansions are - prior to the great tribulation beginning.

Why?
The disciples asked Jesus about the sign of his coming again and he told it would be after great tribulation.
You have been warned in order to prepare.

Matt 24
9 “Then they will hand you over to [endure] tribulation, and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will be offended and repelled [by their association with Me] and will fall away [from the One whom they should trust] and will betray one another [handing over believers to their persecutors] and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will appear and mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, the love of most people will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

 

[Douggg]

Your argument is not valid to @WPM to begin with since he does not take the 70th week to still be future. IOW, you two are not even remotely on the same page here. You need to be arguing with someone who at least agrees that the 70th week is still future.

@WPM started this thread - titling it "the absurdity of Pre-trib logic".

So I think he has the responsibility to prove that the rapture could not - possibly, might, - happen before the 7 year 70th week begins.

I don't disagree with you that @WPM and I are not even remotely on the same page - regarding many other issues, not just the timing of the rapture.

 

[Douggg]

The disciples asked Jesus about the sign of his coming again and he told it would be after great tribulation.
You have been warned in order to prepare.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Not coming "again" in the kjv.

Matt 24
9 “Then they will hand you over to [endure] tribulation, and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Not "tribulation" in the kjv.

 

[WPM]

In Revelation 14, Jesus, having a sickle, will destroy the armies surrounding Jerusalem at His Second Coming.

To destroy the rest of the armies, those armies stacked up in the rest of Israel, an angel, given a sickle for the same purpose, will destroy those armies, and the blood will flow deep for 1600 furlongs - 200 miles, the north-south length of Israel.

Now give me the Revelation chapter and verse that has rapture/resurrection event, clearly and explicitly, in it.

I did. LOL. All you have is your faulty dismissive opinion, which counts for nothing. Scripture overrides that!

I see you avoided one of the cycles I presented.