Where does it mention 2030 in the parable of the fig tree?
Ezekiel 38:2 does not mention Russia! There is no historic, genetic or archaeological proof of that. That is another Pretrib invention that you have swallowed.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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Ezekiel 38:2 does not mention Russia! There is no historic, genetic or archaeological proof of that. That is another Pretrib invention that you have swallowed.
I am not going down all these side tracks you are creating.
I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).
You have not come up with any proof why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).
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Separately, you wrote that the "catching up", i.e. rapture , is in several places in Revelation, but have yet to identify the verses of the rapture/resurrection event in Revelation.
Not so.
Maybe not in Ezekiel but the Messiah is in Daniel 9. But it is talking about His first advent. Neither of these passages mention or relate to a rapture, a period of tribulation, or a third coming. Your teachers have misled you. You force that upon the text because you bought into the Pretrib lie.
Wow! You are the one making outlandish claims. The burden of proof is in with you to prove what you claim. I understand why you are so uncomfortable, because you are clearly unable to substantiate your claims.
I tried to get you away from your imaginary OT rapture passages, but you refused. I'm going to try again for the sake of the reader watching on. I will repeat my request:
I will try and take one passage at a time so that you do not dart off on a bunny trail, as Pretribbers typically do when their theory is forbidden by the sacred text.
II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They get conveniently awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.
There are no wicked left to enter into some alleged Premillennialism future millennium. This is no temporal “destruction.” Those who are unredeemed receive their eternal reward at Christ’s return.
Christ appears at His Second Advent “in flaming fire” with the purpose of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” There is hence absolutely no provision made for unbelievers surviving this all-consummating event. The destruction of the total wicked comes from the actual appearance of Christ at the time of the second coming. Expressly, it is “the presence of the Lord” and “the glory of his power” that causes the destruction of the wicked at the end. It is clearly not a thousand years after the Lord’s appearing as the Premillennialist would try and argue. Neither is there any exceptions, no allowance is made for natural Israel or for the so-called ‘sheep nations’, as Premillennialists try to do.
Al Martin contends: “If the ungodly are judged at His return and if the saint enters into his full and final rest at His return, I submit to you that the breath of scriptural teaching is that the return of Christ, the glorification of the saints of God and the judgment of the ungodly ushers in eternity.”
So, you have nothing in Ezekiel 39, Daniel 9 or Revelation that mentions a literal rapture of the Church, followed by a literal seven year tribulation period, followed by a literal third coming of Christ? Wow! Does this not concern you? After all, these are your main texts.
Check these posts i posted a few days ago that outline my view.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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Are you color blind? Seriously! It is not difficult to follow the blue highlights that show the rapture/resurrection immediately followed by the judgment.
You have not given me a real literal rapture in Revelation. Revelation 4:1-2 is not the rapture/resurrection of the Church. It is a false invented type. That is because you do not have anything to support a Pretrib rapture. Revelation 4:1-2 is describing John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years to receive the unveiling.
Now I presented detailed posts that support the climactic return of Christ, including the rescue of all God's elect and the destruction of all the wicked. Please address them!
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I'll take a stab at it though I realize it will be like talking to a brickwall in your case.
In the Bible heaven doesn't always literally mean heaven where God and angels dwell unseen. Sometimes it simply means the sky above. Let's start with the following verse in Revelation 19.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Per my translation this part is in italics 'which were'. Which could mean we can ignore that part and simply understand it like such---And the armies in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The question is, what is meant by heaven here. Let's look at another verse in this same chapter.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Would anyone argue that the heaven meant here, where all the fowls are flying in the midst of, that this is meaning the heaven where God and angels dwell unseen? IOW, meaning the same heaven Christ is currently dwelling in? Or would the better bet be that the heaven meant here is simply meaning the sky above connected with our atmosphere?
With that in mind since heaven doesn't have to everytime literally mean heaven where God dwells, how then can these armies that are in heaven be explained? Is the only way to explain them is that they were initially literally in heaven where Christ is dwelling? Or could these armies be explained per the following instead?
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Obviously, these in verse 17 are being caught up after the following has already occurred first--Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Verse 17 mentions clouds. Probably literal clouds are not meant, but that is beside the point. Clouds would be something connected with our sky and atmosphere, not something involving heaven where Christ is currently dwelling. It seems to me then, that when the dead in Christ have risen and those remaining alive are caught up and they meet together in the sky above, they are transformed into the armies we see in Revelation 19 and that they continue descending because there is still the beast and its's armies below to contend with.
IOW, Christ and His armies that are formed in the sky above as Jesus is descending to the earth do not turn into cowards instead, thus make a u-turn and return to heaven, these keep descending until they are face to face with their enemies below. A side note. This would indicate that there is a battle between immortals and mortals taking place, because, obviously, Christ and His armies would be immortal at this point while the beast's armies would still be mortal, thus a battle between immortals and mortals unless one wants to propose something ludicrous, that Christ's armies in Revelation 19 are not immortal at this point.
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Possibly because Christ didn’t die till “after 69 weeks” and not before it or during it in Daniel.
As Ellicott says: After threescore and two weeks.—These words can only mean that in the seventieth week the Anointed one shall be cut off.
David, you are rationalizing.
I am asking for a verse(s) in Revelation that clearly, explicitly, has the rapture/resurrection event in it it.
I never said that Revelation 4:1-2 was the actual rapture. I am not saying that the rapture/resurrection is explicitly found in any verse in Revelation.
Give the specific Revelation chapter and verse that has the rapture/resurrection event explicitly in it. I am not going to get bogged down in examining/disucssing an essay of all your rationale, reasoning, interpretations. Just give me the Revelation chapter and verse that has the rapture/resurrection event explicitly in it.
I have heard that argument countless times. Contrary to that argument....
Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah in John 12:12-15. Four days later, He was crucified. So the all within one week.
That the 7 years is still unfulfilled is found in Ezekiel 39. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the destruction of Gog's armies is the 7 year 70th week, which the prince who shall come, shall confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.
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