The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

I am not getting side tracked with those sort of questions.

I am looking for proof from you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

LOL. I am not side-tracking. I am actually outlining you're supposed beliefs. This is an important element of it.

 

[Douggg]

I will be happy to outline the Scriptures. But I asked you where your real Pretrib rapture was in Revelation? After all, to be prefigured there must obviously be a real Pretrib rapture to typify. Or, are you admitting that this is extra-biblical error, like many of us believe?

I am not trying to prove that the pre-trib (pre-70th week, as pretrribbers defined pre-trib) is in Revelation.

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

 

[WPM]

I am not trying to prove that the pre-trib (pre-70th week, as pretrribbers defined pre-trib) is in Revelation.

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

Real easy. Each parallel in Revelation agrees with repeated second coming passages throughout Scripture that show His return to be the end. I am happy to present any of these. They confirm that there is no 7 years trib (or protracted trib) after His return. All that awaits the wicked is sudden and wholesale destruction.

I will try and take one passage at a time so that you do not dart off on a bunny trail, as Pretribbers typically do when their theory is forbidden by the sacred text.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They get conveniently awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

There are no wicked left to enter into some alleged Premillennialism future millennium. This is no temporal “destruction.” Those who are unredeemed receive their eternal reward at Christ’s return.

Christ appears at His Second Advent “in flaming fire” with the purpose of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” There is hence absolutely no provision made for unbelievers surviving this all-consummating event. The destruction of the total wicked comes from the actual appearance of Christ at the time of the second coming. Expressly, it is “the presence of the Lord” and “the glory of his power” that causes the destruction of the wicked at the end. It is clearly not a thousand years after the Lord’s appearing as the Premillennialist would try and argue. Neither is there any exceptions, no allowance is made for natural Israel or for the so-called ‘sheep nations’, as Premillennialists try to do.

Al Martin contends: “If the ungodly are judged at His return and if the saint enters into his full and final rest at His return, I submit to you that the breath of scriptural teaching is that the return of Christ, the glorification of the saints of God and the judgment of the ungodly ushers in eternity.”

 

[Douggg]

LOL. I am not say tracking. I am actually outlining you're supposed beliefs. This is an important element of it.

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

You are trying to turn that around and are asking me to prove the pre-trib rapture view is correct.

I am not pre-trib rapture view. I have my own view, which I titled the anytime rapture view - anytime between right now and when the Antichrist goes into the temple and commits the transgression of desolation act.

the pre-trib rapture view - the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.
the anytime rapture view - the rapture may happen before the 70th week begins. But must happen before the ToD act.

I am saying that the rapture could happen before the 70th week begins - but not necessarily.

 

[WPM]

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view).

You are trying to turn that around and are asking me to prove the pre-trib rapture view is correct.

I am not pre-trib rapture view. I have my own view, which I titled the anytime rapture view - anytime between right now and when the Antichrist goes into the temple and commits the transgression of desolation act.

the pre-trib rapture view - the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.
the anytime rapture view - the rapture may happen before the 70th week begins. But must happen before the ToD act.

I am saying that the rapture could happen before the 70th week begins - but not necessarily.

This is all words. No substance.

Where in Daniel 9 does it even mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming?

Nowhere!

 

[Douggg]

Real easy. Each parallel in Revelation agrees with repeated second coming passages throughout Scripture that show His return to be the end. I am happy to present any of these. They confirm that there is no 7 years trib (or protracted trib) after His return. All that awaits the wicked is sudden and wholesale destruction.

Ezekiel 39 proves that there is 7 years following Gog/Magog, that those 7 years end with Jesus's Second Coming. I agree that the 7 years is not all tribulation.

The pre-tribbers error in calling the entire 7 years as tribulation. But what they are actually referring to is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The issue is not when Jesus's Second Coming is, but when the rapture takes place. I am not asking you when Jesus's Second Coming is.

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view). The point I am making is that the rapture may happen pre-70th week. There is nothing in scripture from preventing it.

 

[WPM]

Ezekiel 39 proves that there is 7 years following Gog/Magog, that those 7 years end with Jesus's Second Coming. I agree that the 7 years is not all tribulation.

The pre-tribbers error in calling the entire 7 years as tribulation. But what they are actually referring to is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The issue is not when Jesus's Second Coming is, but when the rapture takes place. I am not asking you when Jesus's Second Coming is.

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view). The point I am making is that the rapture may happen pre-70th week. There is nothing in scripture from preventing it.

As is typical when engaging with Pretribs, you divert off the text at hand. Please address it.

 

[WPM]

Ezekiel 39 proves that there is 7 years following Gog/Magog, that those 7 years end with Jesus's Second Coming. I agree that the 7 years is not all tribulation.

The pre-tribbers error in calling the entire 7 years as tribulation. But what they are actually referring to is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The issue is not when Jesus's Second Coming is, but when the rapture takes place. I am not asking you when Jesus's Second Coming is.

I am asking you why the rapture cannot happen pre-70th week (i.e pretrib as pre-tribbers define their view). The point I am making is that the rapture may happen pre-70th week. There is nothing in scripture from preventing it.

What are you talking about? So what is Gog/Magog? When does that happen? Where in Ezekiel 39 does it even mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming?

 

[Douggg]

What are you talking about? So what is Gog/Magog? When does that happen? Where in Ezekiel 39 does it even mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming?

Ezekiel 39 provides the time line framework for the 7 year 70th week.

Gog/Magog - Ezekiel 39:1-16
7 years following - Ezekiel 39:9
Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus's Second Coming - Ezekiel 39:21-29

Pre-trib rapture view is the rapture happens before the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

 

[WPM]

Ezekiel 39 provides the time line framework for the 7 year 70th week.

Gog/Magog - Ezekiel 39:1-16
7 years following - Ezekiel 39:9
Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus's Second Coming - Ezekiel 39:21-29

Pre-trib rapture view is the rapture happens before the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

Please quote and highlight all the elements you claim as supporting your belief. You simply claiming it means nothing.

 

[WPM]

Ezekiel 39 provides the time line framework for the 7 year 70th week.

Gog/Magog - Ezekiel 39:1-16
7 years following - Ezekiel 39:9
Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus's Second Coming - Ezekiel 39:21-29

Pre-trib rapture view is the rapture happens before the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

Where in Daniel 9 does it even mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming?

 

[WPM]

Ezekiel 39 provides the time line framework for the 7 year 70th week.

Gog/Magog - Ezekiel 39:1-16
7 years following - Ezekiel 39:9
Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus's Second Coming - Ezekiel 39:21-29

Pre-trib rapture view is the rapture happens before the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

So, who is Gog/Magog? What is that war? Who is involved? When does that happen?

 

[Douggg]

Please quote and highlight all the elements you claim as supporting your belief.

Armageddon:

Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[WPM]

Armageddon:

Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Where in Ezekiel 39 does it even mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming?

 

[WPM]

Armageddon:

Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Where is "Armageddon" mentioned in these two chapters? Are we supposed to just accept what you tell us just because you say so?

 

[Douggg]

So, who is Gog/Magog? What is that war? Who is involved? When does that happen?

Russia, Iran, Turkey, Libya, Ethiopia, Ezekiel 38:2-6.

Sometime before the end of 2030.

 

[WPM]

Russia, Iran, Turkey, Libya, Ethiopia, Ezekiel 38:2-6.

Sometime before the end of 2030.

Where do you get 2030 from? Where does it mention Russia in there?

 

[Douggg]

Where in Ezekiel 39 does it even mention a rapture of the church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming?

It does not have to say in Ezekiel 39. The 7 year 70th week is there, proved so by Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and 7 years that precede it in Ezekiel 39:9.

The pre-trib rapture view is that the rapture takes place before the 7 year 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Where do you get 2030 from? Where does it mention Russia in there?

From the parable of the fig tree.

Russia - Ezekiel 38:2

 

[WPM]

It does not have to say in Ezekiel 39. The 7 year 70th week is there, proved so by Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and 7 years that precede it in Ezekiel 39:9.

The pre-trib rapture view is that the rapture takes place before the 7 year 70th week.

Oh, right? So you admit, there is nowhere in Ezekiel 39 or Daniel 9 that mentions the Church, a rapture of the Church, a tribulation period, and a 3rd coming?