The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

You've been soundly debilged and debunked by SI and WPM. Live with it.

You are welcome to your opinion.

Your claim of 325 AD origin is also tripe:

The Didache c. 100 AD, directs Christians to "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

This is found in the Bible also.

Ignatius of Antioch c. 110 AD, exhorts obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".

I would make the same exhortation.

This is as much as I can say about the subject in this thread.

 

[rwb]

Time never ends. It’s eternal. After the 7th trump, time doesn’t stop; it goes on forEVER.

The Apostle John disagrees with you.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

John writes time is no longer when the seventh and final angel shall sound that the mystery of God should be finished. So, what TIME is John speaking of that is no longer when the final trumpet sounds if it is not time given this earth that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ might be saved?

Even if time should be eternal, all time certainly is not! Because the angel sware by the name of God that things that are, and the earth itself with all its inhabitants shall not be when the last trumpet sounds. I've shown you verses that tell us the mystery hidden in times past, but now revealed is that Gentiles would not only be saved, but that Gentiles would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God, and once the Kingdom of God or "mystery of God should be finished" this time given the universal Church on earth that John writes "a thousand years", shall be finished. There will not be more time given for any man to be saved. And God will not save an unbeliever just because they are ethnically Jews. Why would God make special provisions for ethnic Jews at the end of time after allowing multitudes to die without hope for salvation because they died in unbelief?

Those who have come to the earth and lived are not dead; the martyrs and saints underneath the altar are not dead—they’re in heaven. They were killed for standing up for the truth of God’s Word. They died for their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Where does Scripture say those of the past who were martyred for Christ or died believing in Him would be resurrected physically and come to the earth? Also, John writes that the martyred souls of Rev 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before being martyred for their faith. As you've said, these were killed for faith in Christ they displayed before their death. How can this time written "a thousand years" be future since John writes it is past time for these martyrs for Christ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are no verses that teach that Jesus is a deity. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that Jesus is a man. And John says that anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist. 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7 The only deity is God the Father.

Yes, this false teaching entered the church in 325 AD. Regardless of what they claimed, the council's purpose was to satisfy Constantine's desire for a united kingdom in which everyone worshipped according to the same religion. Christianity became a mish-mash of many other religions and Greek Philosophies.

In Hebrews Jehovah the father says of Jesus, "thy throne o God is forever and ever."
What do you do with that.?
I use the texts receptus Greek interlinear.
Far superior to the men of history you are basing your belief in.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I believe that when a person dies, so does their body, soul, and spirit.

That is not Bible based.
Far, far from it

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sure, but the KJV is written in an older version of English, which is no longer spoken.

The Greek is the Greek
Again, the KJV is almost word for word the Greek text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Eschatology is a study of the end times.

According to scripture "the last days" and "the last time" already began long ago at the time of the first coming of Christ (Acts 2:16-21, 1 John 2:18).

You asked when will all Israel be saved, and I replied with a verse by verse breakdown of Revelation 12 of when all Israel will be saved - in Revelation 12:10, in the middle part of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

This is what I said:

So, with this being the case, why do you postpone Israel's salvation until some later time when salvation through faith in Christ has been offered to all of them for the past almost 2,000 years? The blindness of Israelites is never permanent. It happens for the purpose of Gentile believers provoking them to jealousy. Salvation has not been postponed for them at all, so why do you act as if it has?

How did your response address this? To talk about all Israel being saved in the future is to ignore all the Israelites who have been saved for the past almost 2,000 years. Why would you think that Paul was only talking about the future there?

Also, Paul indicated that the way all Israel is saved is by way of a covenant made by God regarding Him taking away their sins. What other covenant can that be besides the new covenant?

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The new covenant that provides for the forgiveness of sins (taking away of sins) was established by the blood of Christ long ago already.

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

With this in mind, how can Romans 11:26-27 be talking about anything besides people being saved under the new covenant, which is not just a future reality? Please address this.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In Hebrews Jehovah the father says of Jesus, "thy throne o God is forever and ever."
What do you do with that.?
I use the texts receptus Greek interlinear.
Far superior to the men of history you are basing your belief in.

The ancients referred to human kings as "gods." For example, refer to John 10:34-36, in which Jesus quotes Psalm 82 to prove that being human was no obstacle to being the Messiah.

John 10:34-36

Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?​

Paul also makes the same point in his epistle to the Hebrews in the verse you quoted. The Jews were offended because Jesus, having come in the flesh, claimed to be the Messiah, which the Jews believed would be a "theophany" of some kind and not a man.

 

[The Light]

I don't see that at all. And neither did Paul, as evidenced by the fact that he only referenced one rapture (1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 2:1-3).

Paul referenced two raptures. On rapture the Lord Himself comes. It occurs at the trump of God or voice of God. The dead in Christ rise first. Then the Lord returns for the alive that remained.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The other rapture the dead and alive are changed at the twinkling of an eye. It happens at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is a reason Paul said........but of the times and seasons instead of the time and season.

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Romans 11 gets misinterpreted by many who do not take the time to look at it closely. Dispensationalists like you act as if all of Israel was blinded in Paul's day and then one day in the future blindness will be removed from some of them with the rest being killed in the tribulation. That is not at all what Paul taught in Romans 11. Let's examine what Paul taught there closely.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Can you see here that there was a remnant of elect Israelite believers who were not blinded? That's what Israel being blinded in part means. The elect remnant were not blinded, but rather "the rest were blinded".

So, that clears up what Israel being blinded in part means. Now, when is the blindness removed? Not until some future time as you believe? Again, that is not what Paul taught.

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Here, Paul says that the unbelieving, blinded Israelites stumbled, but did not fall. In your doctrine, they fell and did not stumble. Paul said he hoped to help save some of those who were blinded and I'm certain that he did just that. So, even in his day the blindness of some Israelites who had been blinded was removed. To postpone that until some future time takes Romans 11 completely out of context. Starting in Paul's day until now any Israelite who has been blinded in order to be provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles so that "they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23).

I'll just leave it at that for now so you can comment on this even though there's much more I can say about Romans 11 as well.

I think you are making a good point, however, Israel for the most part rejected the Messiah. They are blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That puts the blindness removal to a future time.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Additionally, the salvation of the Gentiles was to provoke the Jews to jealously. That also has to be a future event.

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

The Jews will see that the harvest is over. They are not saved. That is what provokes them to jealously.

Jeremiah 8
The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

When the Gentiles are raptured the summer harvest is over. Then God will turn His attention to the Jews. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits of the twelve tribes. They are first fruits of the fall harvest.

Where does scripture teach anything about anyone escaping "the hour of testing that will come on all the world" by way of a rapture?

Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

You are not reading that carefully. You can not include "these things" that Jesus referenced in Luke 21:31 as the things that we should pray to escape! He said we would see those things and when we do we would know His return is near. When believers see those things coming to pass, then they will know His coming is near and "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand".

When they see these things BEGIN to come to pass His coming is near.

As I said, there is one group that can escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass and stand before the Son of Man

There is another group that will see all these things come to pass.

There are two folds. They will be joined into one fold

John 10
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Gentiles hear His voice and will be the first fold. Then blindness will be removed from part of Israel and they that keep the commandments of God will have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You are not being careful in your study of scripture here. You are not looking at context. You are only skimming the surface. Please take a closer look at the text.

I'm looking closely. I see that blindness cannot be removed from part of Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

You're not getting it! Please read what I'm saying more carefully. It's not the things that He mentions AFTER verse 31 that we would see come to pass before His return, it's the things He mentions BEFORE verse 31 that we would see coming to pass which would indicate that His coming is near. You are the one not giving thought to what I'm saying, not the other way around.

There are two groups as the fig tree has two harvests. There are two folds. Jacob had two brides. There are two raptures. One will be like the days of Noah and one will be like the days of Lot. One at the trump of God and one at the last trump. One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Greek is the Greek
Again, the KJV is almost word for word the Greek text.

I know. What I meant to say is that KJV English uses words that have the opposite meaning today than they had in the 1600's and the syntax is unfamiliar to our ears.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is not Bible based.
Far, far from it

Be careful; the concept of an eternal soul came from Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

 

[The Light]

Thanks for putting an exhaustive case together. This is the best Pretrib effort so far.

My response:

It does not say the wicked will see the removal of corrupt creation. You are mixing passages up to produce that.

I'm not following what you are saying.

The reality is: men will see the signs of the times unfolding but will be taken by surprise with the final wrath.

The final wrath is the one-year Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. But that day will not take believers unaware. They will know EXACTLY when the day of the Lord and the second rapture occurs as they are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for putting an exhaustive case together. This is the best Pretrib effort so far.

My response:

It does not say the wicked will see the removal of corrupt creation. You are mixing passages up to produce that. The reality is: men will see the signs of the times unfolding but will be taken by surprise with the final wrath.

As I indicated to him, "these things" referenced in Luke 21:31 are not the same as "these things" referenced in Luke 21:36, but he is not understanding that.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

So, when Jesus said "when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand", He was talking about the things He had just previously mentioned like "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth".

Whatever those signs are and whatever that "distress of nations" on the earth is exactly, Jesus said believers would see those things and would then know that His coming and the kingdom of God was at hand. He didn't say they would know His coming would then only be a few years away or anything like that. He said "at hand". That means when those things come to pass, He is bringing the kingdom of God on that day. So, "these things" cannot be the things that Jesus said to pray that we would be worthy to escape because He said we would see "these things" come to pass first before He comes. And, when we do see those things come to pass, we will know His coming and the kingdom of God are at hand. To pray to escape these things that He said believers would see come to pass obviously makes no sense.

So, that leads to the question of what then were "these things" that Jesus said we should pray to escape?

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, again, it's not "these things" that Jesus said we would see come to pass that we should pray to escape because that would be contradictory. Instead, it's heaven and earth passing away that we should pray to escape. That will catch unbelievers completely off guard just as Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Jesus will be coming like a thief in the night and no one knows the day or hour, but we can be ready for it so that we escape His wrath which "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". We should pray that we are instead caught up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes in order to escape the "sudden destruction" from which His enemies "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

I know that you already know all of this, but I just wanted to share with you a way that we can explain "these things" that believers will see come to pass in contrast with "these things" that we should pray to be worthy to escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul referenced two raptures. On rapture the Lord Himself comes. It occurs at the trump of God or voice of God. The dead in Christ rise first. Then the Lord returns for the alive that remained.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The other rapture the dead and alive are changed at the twinkling of an eye. It happens at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is a reason Paul said........but of the times and seasons instead of the time and season.

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

That is not two raptures, they both will happen when the one rapture occurs. Both passages reference the dead in Christ being resurrected. The dead in Christ will not be resurrected at two different times. Paul gave the order of resurrections here and did not mention two different resurrections of the dead in Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

You need to agree with Paul that there will only be one resurrection of the dead in Christ in the future, not two, and it will happen at Christ's second coming.

I think you are making a good point, however, Israel for the most part rejected the Messiah. They are blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That puts the blindness removal to a future time.

You say I made a good point (thanks) and then you proceeded to dismiss it (Huh?).

Please reason with me here. I showed you this:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

You understand that Paul said there was an elect remnant of saved Israelite believers in his day, right (Romans 11:5). And he said "the rest were blinded" in verse 7. So, in verse 11 Paul is referring to the rest who were blinded and he indicated that they stumbled, but did not fall. With me so far? And then in verse 14 he talked about his hope to help "save some of them". I think it's highly likely that he did help save some of them, wouldn't you agree? Which would mean their blindness was removed. You are trying to say Israel's blindness won't be removed until a future time when Paul himself indicated that it was removed for "some of them" even back then. Agree?

So, what I'm saying is that the blindness of some of them has been removed ever since then as well. And that will continue to happen "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in".

Additionally, the salvation of the Gentiles was to provoke the Jews to jealously. That also has to be a future event.

But, Paul said that was happening already in his day! As he indicated in Romans 11:11-14? Why are you not taking that into account?

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

The Jews will see that the harvest is over. They are not saved. That is what provokes them to jealously.

Why are you acting as if they are all not saved? You are completely missing the context of that passage. Did you see there that Paul said he hoped to help "save some of them" back then? The Gentiles did provoke some of them to jealousy back then and they repented and put their faith in Christ and were then no longer blinded.

Looking at Romans 11 from only a futurist perspective results in taking it completely out of context. Paul was talking about things that were already happening back then and would continue to happen "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in".

Jeremiah 8
The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

When the Gentiles are raptured the summer harvest is over. Then God will turn His attention to the Jews.

You think God didn't already turn His attention to the Jews by sending His Son to die for their sins? I don't understand your perspective at all.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

How can you say God has not yet turned His attention to the Jews when unto them "first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."? Jesus said "It is finished". What more can He do for them than what He has already done? Nothing. To act as if God hasn't already turned His attention to the Jews requires you to ignore a lot of scripture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know. What I meant to say is that KJV English uses words that have the opposite meaning today than they had in the 1600's and the syntax is unfamiliar to our ears.

Not concerning doctrine.
It reads very well.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Be careful; the concept of an eternal soul came from Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

Show me the doctrine using scripture.
It is vivid that we are 3 part, and the spirit is eternal
It is you invoking philosophy as a qualifier

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not following what you are saying.

I mean no offense when I say this, but that's a funny thing for you to say to any of us Amils. You believe in multiple comings of Christ, multiple raptures, multiple resurrections, and so on. You have no idea how hard it is to follow what you say.

The final wrath is the one-year Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. But that day will not take believers unaware. They will know EXACTLY when the day of the Lord and the second rapture occurs as they are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

No, I'm not following what you are saying. How can "sudden destruction" last for one year?

Definition of the word sudden: occurring or done quickly and unexpectedly or without warning.

Sudden destruction cannot last for one year. One year of destruction does not happen quickly. Christ will destroy His enemies suddenly/quickly when He comes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The ancients referred to human kings as "gods." For example, refer to John 10:34-36, in which Jesus quotes Psalm 82 to prove that being human was no obstacle to being the Messiah.

John 10:34-36

Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?​

Paul also makes the same point in his epistle to the Hebrews in the verse you quoted. The Jews were offended because Jesus, having come in the flesh, claimed to be the Messiah, which the Jews believed would be a "theophany" of some kind and not a man.

You misrepresented God's word

Ironically. By doing what you did, that same Greek word is used for the Father Jehovah

You are calling Jehovah "a god"

Again using philosophy to qualify what you are asserting

 

[honeycomb]

The Apostle John disagrees with you.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

John writes time is no longer when the seventh and final angel shall sound that the mystery of God should be finished. So, what TIME is John speaking of that is no longer when the final trumpet sounds if it is not time given this earth that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ might be saved?

Even if time should be eternal, all time certainly is not! Because the angel sware by the name of God that things that are, and the earth itself with all its inhabitants shall not be when the last trumpet sounds. I've shown you verses that tell us the mystery hidden in times past, but now revealed is that Gentiles would not only be saved, but that Gentiles would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God, and once the Kingdom of God or "mystery of God should be finished" this time given the universal Church on earth that John writes "a thousand years", shall be finished. There will not be more time given for any man to be saved. And God will not save an unbeliever just because they are ethnically Jews. Why would God make special provisions for ethnic Jews at the end of time after allowing multitudes to die without hope for salvation because they died in unbelief?


Where does Scripture say those of the past who were martyred for Christ or died believing in Him would be resurrected physically and come to the earth? Also, John writes that the martyred souls of Rev 20:4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before being martyred for their faith. As you've said, these were killed for faith in Christ they displayed before their death. How can this time written "a thousand years" be future since John writes it is past time for these martyrs for Christ?

Hi. …
John (God, actually) is saying no time left in this age (dispensation). After the millennium and the great white throne judgment, the New Jerusalem and eternity await, and this time will be forever and ever and ever!

 

[rebuilder 454]

…Hi. John (God, actually) is saying no time left in this age (dispensation). and after the millennium and the great white throne judgment, the New Jerusalem and eternity await, and this time will be forever and ever and ever!

Yes.
It says no more sun or moon.
Those are the "time keepers".
There will still be " moment by moment"
Which designates past present and future, but without the current " timekeepers"

 

[Douggg]

Also, Paul indicated that the way all Israel is saved is by way of a covenant made by God regarding Him taking away their sins. What other covenant can that be besides the new covenant?

It is right here in Revelation 12:10 of when all Israel, i.e. Israel the nation as a whole.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

With this in mind, how can Romans 11:26-27 be talking about anything besides people being saved under the new covenant, which is not just a future reality? Please address this.

Of course there is only one way to be saved. And for the past 2000 years, every day there have been individual Jews saved by believing in Jesus.

But Romans 11:25, is talking about Israel, the nation, as a whole. Israel as a whole, i.e. all of the Jews will turn to Christ in Revelation 12:10, in the middle of the forthcoming 7 year 70th week - after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in - i.e. after the rapture.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Do you think currently Israel over there is a Christian nation ? I say "no".