The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. Common sense doesn't tell anyone that we are made in the image of animals.

Yes it does. Humans are members of a large group of animals known as mammals. Didn't you graduate from high school? We share attributes and characteristics with the animals. We ALSO share characteristics with God, such as the ability to make moral judgments.

 

[covenantee]

Why does that matter? I am right, they are wrong.

How many of them have you persuaded?

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Every recognized Bible translator on earth

Need a hint?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn't say animals were spiritual did I? Take a class in reading comprehension! I said qualities of both animals and God. It makes more sense that God talking to himself.

You are talking nonsense and you're trying to tell me to take a class? Take a class in spiritual discernment because you currently have none! Made in the image of animals? LOL!!! No.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes it does. Humans are members of a large group of animals known as mammals. Didn't you graduate from high school? We share attributes and characteristics with the animals. We ALSO share characteristics with God, such as the ability to make moral judgments.

Humans are not animals. Instead we are....get this...humans. Animals don't have souls and spirits like we do. You are so deceived that it just boggles my mind. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[CadyandZoe]

I understand that you are blind and deceived and need to repent of your denial of who Jesus Christ is.

There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is deity. In fact, it proves the opposite. Claiming that I am deceived is not a valid criticism.

Scripture explicitly says that Jesus created all things.

Your translation is obviously incorrect.

so, no, it didn't come from the Catholic Church, it comes from scripture.

You are wrong about that. The Trinity Doctrine was invented in 325AD.

He is God and man at the same time and you reject that.

I don't reject that Jesus is God and man simultaneously. Paul teaches that Jesus is the image of God. John teaches that Jesus is the exegesis of God.

I'm surprised you accept any supernatural or spiritual things.

I'm not surprised you can't help making up stuff about what I believe.

You try to understand His deity and humanity using only human reasoning.

You also use human reasoning.

Using only human wisdom and reasoning to understand spiritual and supernatural things is foolish and is something "the natural man" does (1 Corinthians 2:9-16) and is not something Christians do.

I am using the Bible to understand the nature of God and Jesus Christ. You are not. You are defending a religious creed, which did not come from the Bible but a council under orders from a Roman King.

 

[covenantee]

Okay. Why aren't you confident in your common sense?

My common sense doesn't encompass Greek translation.

Neither does yours.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My common sense doesn't encompass Greek translation.

Neither does yours.

I question whether you are using any common sense at all. Why do you believe in contradiction?

 

[covenantee]

I question whether you are using any common sense at all. Why do you believe in contradiction?

Why do you believe in bilge and bunk?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is deity. In fact, it proves the opposite. Claiming that I am deceived is not a valid criticism.

There are many scriptures in the Bible which say this. You are deceived.

Your translation is obviously incorrect.

LOL. I showed you that the NASB that you use says the same thing. So, I guess you think your own translation is obviously incorrect, too?

You are wrong about that. The Trinity Doctrine was invented in 325AD.

You are deceived. It was never invented but is eternal since God, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit is eternal. Your denial of this is heretical. Your interpretation of Genesis 1:26 is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of any one verse that I've ever seen in my entire life. So, congratulations on that.

I don't reject that Jesus is God and man simultaneously. Paul teaches that Jesus is the image of God. John teaches that Jesus is the exegesis of God.

How can you deny His deity and say He is God? What is your definition of the word "deity"?

I'm not surprised you can't help making up stuff about what I believe.

Am I making it up that you believe we are made in the image of animals? Am I making it up that you deny the deity of Jesus Christ as you've said several times at this point?

You also use human reasoning.

Wrong. Human reasoning can't comprehend Jesus being God and man at the same time.

I am using the Bible to understand the nature of God and Jesus Christ. You are not. You are defending a religious creed, which did not come from the Bible but a council under orders from a Roman King.

LOL. Keep making things up if that makes you happy. You are using a Bible, the NASB translation, that you say contradicts your own belief about Jesus. That is foolishness. Why would you use a translation like that? I sure wouldn't use a translation that I thought contradicted a major Bible doctrine.

 

[WPM]

The Trinity Doctrine isn't taught in the Bible. It came from the Catholic Church. No scripture would ever say that Jesus created all things, since Jesus is not eternal, self-sustaining, transcendent, etc.

Don't you understand?

Op Note

I showed you and you tried to explain it away - without success.

I am officially asking to take your heresy and derailment away from this discussion. If you refuse i am going to report you. I will not give any more warnings.

 

[Douggg]

So, with this being the case, why do you postpone Israel's salvation until some later time when salvation through faith in Christ has been offered to all of them for the past almost 2,000 years? The blindness of Israelites is never permanent. It happens for the purpose of Gentile believers provoking them to jealousy. Salvation has not been postponed for them at all, so why do you act as if it has?

Revelation 12 is about Israel in the 7 year 70th week.

verses 1-5 A historic look at the woman, to identify her as Israel. And Satan's desire to destroy her.
verse 6 She is fed the word of God by the two witnesses for the first 1260 days of the 7 years, as they testify of Jesus.
verse 7-9 A war in the second heaven, which Satan and his angels are then cast down to earth.
verse 10 Israel turns to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation. Due to the testimony of the two witnesses.
verse 11 As a result of coming to Christ, Israel overcomes Satan's desire to destroy her.
verse 12 Them in heaven rejoice, because the end of Satan's hold over the nations is at hand. His time is short.
verse 13 Satan, in his wrath will persecute Israel
verse 14 Them of Israel, who heed Christ's words to flee into the mountain wilderness, as soon as the abomination of desolation is setup, is protected from Satan's persecution for a time, times, half time. The second half of the 7 years.
verse 15-16 Satan attempts to destroy Israel in the wilderness, by sending armies after her, but those are destroyed by supernatural means, such as earthquakes, causing mountain slides.
verse 17 Them of Israel, who did not flee right away into the mountain wilderness become vulnerable to the persecution of Satan for the time, times, half time. To be rescued in Zechariah 14, when Jesus returns, His Second Coming.

 

[honeycomb]

The Great White Throne Judgment Day happens after the seventh trumpet sounds that TIME shall be no longer. How can there be another one thousand years of TIME since time given this earth shall be finished when the seventh trumpet sounds? You are still waiting for the Day of the Lord to come, just as the Old Covenant nation of Israel. Why? It seems you as they have failed to understand the Day of the Lord has come, is present now, and shall end one day when time given this earth to be saved is finished.

Here’s my take…

Time never ends. It’s eternal. After the 7th trump, time doesn’t stop; it goes on forEVER. Those who have come to the earth and lived are not dead; the martyrs and saints underneath the altar are not dead—they’re in heaven. They were killed for standing up for the truth of God’s Word. They died for their testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

- Revelation 6:9-11

The end times are here, and it is a spiritual battle we are fighting (the 5th seal). It is a battle of beliefs and concepts and ideas. It is about political correctness where right is wrong and wrong is right. The Antichrist will come proclaiming he is God, promising peace, and he will deceive many with his miracles and wonders, and many will worship him. This is the great apostasy. Woe!

"And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "And pray that your flight may not be in winter. "For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

- Mark 13:10-19 (NKJV)


PEtRA

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you believe in bilge and bunk?

I understand your need to insult me because it isn't comfortable for someone to challenge your assumptions. You lash out instead of thinking this through with me.

Deity is defined in terms and attributes such as eternality, self-sufficiency, transcendence, omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, and infinity. Jesus has none of those attributes. So he is not deity. There can be only one self-existent being. Jesus is not self-existent.

He was born, and he died for our sins.

Deity is immutable, which means that deity never changes. Jesus grew physically and he grew in wisdom. In other words, he changed over time. So Jesus is not deity.

Deity is self-sufficient, which means that deity has no needs. Deity does not depend on anything or anyone for his existence. Jesus had needs. He got hungry, tired, socialized, and asked for help. Since Jesus had needs, he is not deity.

Deity is omniscient, which means deity knows everything. Jesus doesn't know the day or hour of his return, so he doesn't know everything. Therefore he is not deity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There are many scriptures in the Bible which say this. You are deceived.

See my post where I explain why Jesus is not the deity.

LOL. I showed you that the NASB that you use says the same thing.

So what. I told you before you told me. Try to catch up.

You are deceived. It was never invented but is eternal since God, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit is eternal.

Incorrect. A creed is not inerrant and inspired.

Your denial of this is heretical.

I know this. Heresy denies orthodoxy, and orthodoxy is a religion with an army. Thank God I live in a country where our right to freedom of religion and conscience is protected.

Your interpretation of Genesis 1:26 is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of any one verse that I've ever seen in my entire life.

So you say.

How can you deny His deity and say He is God? What is your definition of the word "deity"?

I already told you my definition of deity. I repeated it to @covenantee here. The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is the deity; it teaches that Jesus is the exact representation of his nature, the image of God, the exegesis of God.

Wrong. Human reasoning can't comprehend Jesus being God and man at the same time.

Believing that Jesus is God and man at the same time requires gullibility, not wisdom or spiritual apprehension. Jesus can't have the attributes of deity and not have the attributes of deity at the same time.

You are using a Bible, the NASB translation, that you say contradicts your own belief about Jesus. That is foolishness.

I didn't say that the NASB was my sole Bible study aid.

Why would you use a translation like that? I sure wouldn't use a translation that I thought contradicted a major Bible doctrine.

You are using one right now.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Op Note

I showed you and you tried to explain it away - without success.

I am officially asking to take your heresy and derailment away from this discussion. If you refuse i am going to report you. I will not give any more warnings.

Okay. But you realize that you brought it up. Not I.

 

[covenantee]

I understand your need to insult me because it isn't comfortable for someone to challenge your assumptions. You lash out instead of thinking this through with me.

Deity is defined in terms and attributes such as eternality, self-sufficiency, transcendence, omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, and infinity. Jesus has none of those attributes. So he is not deity. There can be only one self-existent being. Jesus is not self-existent.

He was born, and he died for our sins.

Deity is immutable, which means that deity never changes. Jesus grew physically and he grew in wisdom. In other words, he changed over time. So Jesus is not deity.

Deity is self-sufficient, which means that deity has no needs. Deity does not depend on anything or anyone for his existence. Jesus had needs. He got hungry, tired, socialized, and asked for help. Since Jesus had needs, he is not deity.

Deity is omniscient, which means deity knows everything. Jesus doesn't know the day or hour of his return, so he doesn't know everything. Therefore he is not deity.

You've been soundly debilged and debunked by SI and WPM. Live with it.

Your claim of 325 AD origin is also tripe:

The Didache c. 100 AD, directs Christians to "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

Ignatius of Antioch c. 110 AD, exhorts obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 12 is about Israel in the 7 year 70th week.

verses 1-5 A historic look at the woman, to identify her as Israel. And Satan's desire to destroy her.
verse 6 She is fed the word of God by the two witnesses for the first 1260 days of the 7 years, as they testify of Jesus.
verse 7-9 A war in the second heaven, which Satan and his angels are then cast down to earth.
verse 10 Israel turns to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation. Due to the testimony of the two witnesses.
verse 11 As a result of coming to Christ, Israel overcomes Satan's desire to destroy her.
verse 12 Them in heaven rejoice, because the end of Satan's hold over the nations is at hand. His time is short.
verse 13 Satan, in his wrath will persecute Israel
verse 14 Them of Israel, who heed Christ's words to flee into the mountain wilderness, as soon as the abomination of desolation is setup, is protected from Satan's persecution for a time, times, half time. The second half of the 7 years.
verse 15-16 Satan attempts to destroy Israel in the wilderness, by sending armies after her, but those are destroyed by supernatural means, such as earthquakes, causing mountain slides.
verse 17 Them of Israel, who did not flee right away into the mountain wilderness become vulnerable to the persecution of Satan for the time, times, half time. To be rescue in Zechariah 14, when Jesus returns, His Second Coming.

Apparently, your idea of a discussion is to completely ignore what the other person says without addressing it at all and then talking about something else besides what the other person said. What a waste of time. I'm not interested in a one way discussion.

 

[Douggg]

Apparently, your idea of a discussion is to completely ignore what the other person says without addressing it at all and then talking about something else besides what the other person said. What a waste of time. I'm not interested in a one way discussion.

Eschatology is a study of the end times. You asked when will all Israel be saved, and I replied with a verse by verse breakdown of Revelation 12 of when all Israel will be saved - in Revelation 12:10, in the middle part of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

 

[WPM]

I was prewrath which is really post trib as the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. But I kept seeing two raptures all over scripture. When I saw this I was sure and then everything fell into place.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.


It is the Jews that will still be here. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will remove the blindness from part of Israel.


One group the Church can escape the hour of testing that will come on all the world. The Jews will be in the hour of testing as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

The things He describes as all these things...........................
Luke 21
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When Jesus said we can escape all these things, He was talking about the things He had talked about. However, there is a group that will see all these things. This following verse is the proof that you are mistaken.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

So how can someone see these things come to pass if the things that come to pass are heaven and earth passing away?

As I said, ALL the things that we can escape are the things that Jesus listed which includes the great tribulation.

This is common sense. Simple logic.

So how can someone see these things come to pass if the things that come to pass are heaven and earth passing away?

As I said, ALL the things that we can escape are the things that Jesus listed which includes the great tribulation.


It will take at least 1 year as the Day of the Lord is one-year long. The things you want to do in 24 hours takes at least a year to do. It starts with this, the first trumpet of the wrath of God. The sudden destruction comes when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath.

Revelation 8
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.



The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

The very day.............the Day of the Lord............the earth will be burning. And the very day........the Day of the Lord sudden destruction will come. These events happen in the one year Day of the Lord..........The day of His wrath...........the day of vengeance and the YEAR OF RECOMPENSES.

Give some thought to what I am saying. How can we see all these things come to pass if those things are the destruction of heaven and earth? That would not be possible.

Thanks for putting an exhaustive case together. This is the best Pretrib effort so far.

My response:

It does not say the wicked will see the removal of corrupt creation. You are mixing passages up to produce that. The reality is: men will see the signs of the times unfolding but will be taken by surprise with the final wrath.

 

[honeycomb]

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

So how can someone see these things come to pass if the things that come to pass are heaven and earth passing away?

These seven things (seals) mentioned in Luke 21, Mark 13 and Matthew 24 certainly will come to pass in this generation. We can see some of these events happening today.

…. and then the heaven and earth will pass away. This happens after these seven things, which are the seven seals.