The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isn’t the tribulation at the sounding of the 5th trumpet? What do you think?

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

- Revelation 9:1-11

Have you considered the possibility that the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other, which means that the fifth seal, fifth trumpet and fifth vial all occur at generally the same time? This is why there are similarities between the fifth seal and fifth trumpet and why one of you thinks it begins at the fifth seal and one thinks it begins at the fifth trumpet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The great tribulation is Joel2:30-32. Still forthcoming.

Joel 2:
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

That isn't only talking about something that is forthcoming. People have been calling on the name of the Lord and being saved for a long time and will do so until "the great and the terrible day of the LORD come", which is when Jesus returns to burn up the earth (2 Peter 3:10-13) and rid the world of sin and death once and for all and then ushers in the "new heavens and a new earth, wherin dwelleth righteousness".

 

[honeycomb]

Yes, it does. We all believe that whether we're amil or premil. But, what we disagree on is the timing of the thousand years in relation to the second coming of Christ.


Can you explain to me clearly how exactly an earthly millennial kingdom can occur after the following occurs?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What does Peter say we should be looking for in according with the promise of His coming? An earthly millennial kingdom or "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"?

The thief-in-the night scenario is the Second Coming of Christ—the 7th trump. The millennium begins after this and the devil gets locked up for a thousand years.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:1-4

 

[honeycomb]

Have you considered the possibility that the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other, which means that the fifth seal, fifth trumpet and fifth vial all occur at generally the same time? This is why there are similarities between the fifth seal and fifth trumpet and why one of you thinks it begins at the fifth seal and one thinks it begins at the fifth trumpet.

Lol…maybe. I’ve heard said that the seals are not in chronological order, so I don’t know.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 11;25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Individual Jews are saved everyday. But as a whole, most are unsaved. But that will change in the middle of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27 (same as the 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39). The rapture will have already happened, the fullness of the Gentiles.

Revelation 12:10 is referring to the Jews (Israel)

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And Revelation 12:17 is referring to Jews (Israel), who did not flee to the mountains in a timely manner when the abominatin of desolation is setup.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Okay, you commented on Romans 11:5-14 and I said I would comment on this post if you did.

What I believe needs to understood about Romans 11:25 is that Paul was referring to the process he had previously described in Romans 11:5-14 as being ongoing from his day all the way "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

So, it started as a remnant of saved Israelite believers in his day while "the rest were blinded" (Romans 11:5-7). Then, God started the process of bringing the opportunity of salvation to the Gentiles which, in turn, would provoke the blinded Israelites to jealousy. Paul described that process here:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Referring to the Israelites who had been blinded, Paul said "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid". So, they only stumbled and did not fall. This means their blindness was temporary. The plan God put in place back then was to bring salvation to the Gentiles so that they would, in turn, provoke the blinded Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved the way the Gentiles were. Paul said he hoped to lead "some" of the blinded Israelites of his day to salvation and I'm sure he did because he was possibly the greatest evangelist of all-time.

So, what I've said here has to be kept in mind when reading Romans 11:25.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So, what Paul was saying here is that some Israelites, but not all, would be blinded like they were in his day "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". Israel was blinded in part in Paul's day and has been ever since and will be "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in". What that means is that the process of God blinding some Israelites and then having the Gentiles provoke them to jealousy that started in Paul's day would be ongoing from that point all the way "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in".

We need to interpret Romans 11:25 in such a way that is consistent with what Paul had said before that which I think a lot of people miss. Surely, Paul would not say he hoped to save "some of them" that had been blinded and later say that the blindness of all of them would be removed. That would be contradictory.

So, I'll leave it at that. If you come to understand Romans 11 properly then the dominoes would fall into place and you would have to change your understanding of the other verses you mentioned like Revelation 12:10 and Revelation 12:17 accordingly.

 

[WPM]

Lying has become part of your DNA.

You are hopelessly mired in lying, nastiness, and a bad attitude.
Thoughtful posts are no longer anywhere in your constant spews.
...as you demonstrate to us.

Once your theological speculations were exposed you resorted to bullying and abuse.

Yes, you have proven to be a model Christian with your behavior on this forum. LOL.

This is who they are and this is all they have.

 

[CadyandZoe]

People like you who don't want to believe that Jesus created all things no matter how many scriptures say so.

The Trinity Doctrine isn't taught in the Bible. It came from the Catholic Church. No scripture would ever say that Jesus created all things, since Jesus is not eternal, self-sustaining, transcendent, etc.

Don't you understand?

 

[CadyandZoe]

There's obviously not one recognized Greek translator on earth, past or present, who agrees with you.

Why does that matter? I am right, they are wrong.

I'm confident in their translation capabilities and competencies.

Okay. Why aren't you confident in your common sense?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do u do with the deity of Jesus verses.

There are no verses that teach that Jesus is a deity. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that Jesus is a man. And John says that anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist. 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7 The only deity is God the Father.

Christians believe that Jesus is deity or equal to God, but God is not Jesus.

Yes, this false teaching entered the church in 325 AD. Regardless of what they claimed, the council's purpose was to satisfy Constantine's desire for a united kingdom in which everyone worshipped according to the same religion. Christianity became a mish-mash of many other religions and Greek Philosophies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In Every human death, the spirit does not die.
Same with Jesus.
The body died.
The body is not the person.

I believe that when a person dies, so does their body, soul, and spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thief-in-the night scenario is the Second Coming of Christ—the 7th trump.

Yes, I agree.

The millennium begins after this and the devil gets locked up for a thousand years.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:1-4

How can the thousand years start at that point when it says this about what happens at the seventh trumpet:

Revelation 11:
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Notice that the seventh trumpet signals different things including "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". When are the dead judged? After the thousand years (and Satan's little season).

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Genesis says "let US CREATE man in our image"

Yes, God was speaking to the animals. Mankind is both the image of animals and the image of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

King James is almost word for word the original Greek.
(The recieved text interlinear)

Sure, but the KJV is written in an older version of English, which is no longer spoken.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol…maybe. I’ve heard said that the seals are not in chronological order, so I don’t know.

No, they are. It would be ludicrous to refer to them as the first, second third, etc. seals if they weren't in chronological order. But, they are parallel to the trumpets and vials.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Genesis says "let US CREATE man in our image"

Yes, God was speaking to the animals. Mankind is both the image of animals and the image of God.

This is one of the most ridiculous interpretations I've ever seen.

CadyandZoe Heretic Translation: "And God said, hey animals, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let man have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. In other words, over all of you that I'm talking to right now. Is that cool with you guys?".

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is one of the most ridiculous interpretations I've ever seen.

CadyandZoe Heretic Translation: "And God said, hey animals, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let man have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. In other words, over all of you that I'm talking to right now. Is that cool with you guys?".

Do you deny that mankind shares attributes, features and qualities with Both the animal kingdom and God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Trinity Doctrine isn't taught in the Bible. It came from the Catholic Church. No scripture would ever say that Jesus created all things, since Jesus is not eternal, self-sustaining, transcendent, etc.

Don't you understand?

I understand that you are blind and deceived and need to repent of your denial of who Jesus Christ is. Scripture explicitly says that Jesus created all things, so, no, it didn't come from the Catholic Church, it comes from scripture. He is God and man at the same time and you reject that. I'm surprised you accept any supernatural or spiritual things. You try to understand His deity and humanity using only human reasoning. Using only human wisdom and reasoning to understand spiritual and supernatural things is foolish and is something "the natural man" does (1 Corinthians 2:9-16) and is not something Christians do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you deny that mankind shares attributes, features and qualities with Both the animal kingdom and God?

LOL. Keep digging that hole deeper. We are not made in the image of animals. Are animals spiritual? No. You are believing foolish things and thinking I'm supposed to take it seriously? Think again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why does that matter? I am right, they are wrong.

Okay. Why aren't you confident in your common sense?

LOL. Common sense doesn't tell anyone that we are made in the image of animals. LOL. It's cute how you imagine that anyone is taking you seriously with your nonsense.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. Keep digging that hole deeper. We are not made in the image of animals. Are animals spiritual? No. You are believing foolish things and thinking I'm supposed to take it seriously? Think again.

I didn't say animals were spiritual did I? Take a class in reading comprehension! I said qualities of both animals and God. It makes more sense that God talking to himself.