The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

So, why do you use it?

I use the NASB because it is the closest to the original Greek.

I would never use a translation that I believed taught false doctrine.

I prefer to use the NASB for the reasons I gave earlier.

Consider, though, the doctrine of the Trinity is like an electrified fence. Those who create translations, lexicons, dictionaries and commentaries don't want to get too close to it for fear of death (of career.) Many of us know this by experience.

LOL. Of course it's not what he meant. Uh huh. Okay.

I don't expect you to believe me, but I was hoping that you would think about the passage with me instead of rejecting everything out of hand. Remember, you brought it up. I didn't.

And, no, it's only obvious to people like you who don't want to believe that Jesus created all things no matter how many scriptures say so.

What do you mean by "people like me?" Is your chair comfortable?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I use the NASB because it is the closest to the original Greek.

What other false doctrine do you believe is contained within the NASB besides the teaching of the deity of Christ?

I prefer to use the NASB for the reasons I gave earlier.

Don't you think you should try to learn Greek so that you can be sure of what the scriptures teach about Jesus and other things? I truly have no idea why you would trust the NASB at all if you think it teaches false doctrine about Jesus.

Consider, though, the doctrine of the Trinity is like an electrified fence. Those who create translations, lexicons, dictionaries and commentaries don't want to get too close to it for fear of death (of career.) Many of us know this by experience.

I have no idea of what you're talking about here.

I don't expect you to believe me, but I was hoping that you would think about the passage with me instead of rejecting everything out of hand. Remember, you brought it up. I didn't.

Are you under the impression that I've never given the passage any thought before? I certainly have.

What do you mean by "people like me?" Is your chair comfortable?

I meant exactly what I said. People like you who don't want to believe that Jesus created all things no matter how many scriptures say so.

And, yes, my chair is quite comfortable. Thank you for asking.

 

[honeycomb]

Yes, that's okay with me. I will leave those kinds of comments out. I just don't know where you are getting the idea of spiritual, mortal bodies. Please show me where scripture teaches that.

This is how I understand these things.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When our flesh (natural) body dies we are all given spiritual bodies. Every one of us, both the saved and the unsaved that are still alive in our flesh bodies at Christ's return. Remember, we are talking about bodies here, not souls! *That is not to say we will have become immortal. We will just be changed into a spiritual body that's incorruptible but not necessarily immortal. Only those overcomers who go through the First Resurrection will have immortality (eternal life).

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Two separate events: First, our flesh body is changed into a spiritual body, either at Christ's return or when we die in the flesh, whichever happens first. Second, some of us (overcomers, those not deceived, those who endure until the end) will be granted eternal life/immortality at Christ's return (The First Resurrection) and the rest must wait until after the 1,000-year Millennium, when at the Great White Throne Judgment, they will either be granted eternal life/immortality (The Second Resurrection) or eternal death (the Second Death), which is to perish (along wth Satan in "The Lake of Fire") and be no more, for God is a consuming fire.

Now here, the topic of discussion changes from bodies to souls:
54 So when (#1) this corruptible (body) shall have put on incorruption, and ( #2) this mortal (soul)shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[covenantee]

No, the translation should read, "the world came into being "for the sake of" Him." Jesus is the reason why God created the world.

There's obviously not one recognized Greek translator on earth, past or present, who agrees with you.

They are unanimous in their translation of the verse.

I'm confident in their translation capabilities and competencies.

Not yours.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is how I understand these things.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When our flesh (natural) body dies we are all given spiritual bodies.

Where does it say that? Paul indicates that the dead are not resurrected until the last trumpet, not when we die.

So, to me, when Paul says our body "is sown a natural body" and "raised a spiritual body" he's talking about when those whose natural bodies have died being resurrected from the dead and having their bodies changed from natural to spiritual. That does not happen until the last trumpet when Jesus returns. Only a spiritual body is eternal, while a natural body is not.

So, what I see Paul doing there in 1st Corinthians 15 is contrasting the earthy, corruptible, dishonorable, mortal and weak natural body that we have now with the heavenly, incorruptible, glorious, immortal and powerful spiritual body that we will have when we are changed at the last trumpet.

Every one of us, both the saved and the unsaved that are still alive in our flesh bodies at Christ's return. Remember, we are talking about bodies here, not souls! *That is not to say we will have become immortal. We will just be changed into a spiritual body that's incorruptible but not necessarily immortal.

How can an incorruptible body not be immortal? That does not make any sense. Our current bodies are corruptible because we sin. And our current bodies die. Part of the consequences of sin is that people physically die, so an incorruptible body can't die.

Definition of incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Two separate events:

No, there is no indication that those are two separate events whatsoever. Paul was simply saying that our corruptible and mortal bodies must be made incorruptible and immortal and that will happen at the last trumpet.

 

[Douggg]

What do you think you're proving here? Joel 2:28-32 contains a prophecy about "the last days" which ended up having already begun before the day of Pentecost long ago.

You think your interpretation of Ezekiel 39 somehow proves something and yet your interpretation of it contradicts much other scripture. Such as the scriptures which clearly indicate that no mortal people will survive the second coming of Christ. But, you don't care about that.

The great tribulation is Joel2:30-32. Still forthcoming.

Joel 2:
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Jesus's return, His Second Coming is Ezekiel 39:21-29.

The Gog/Magog event 7 years earlier in Ezekiel 39:1-16.

Gog/Magog has not taken place yet, proved by there not being some mass grave site of Gog's army in Israel - yet, Ezekiel 39:11.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

 

[WPM]

The great tribulation is Joel2:30-32. Still forthcoming.

Joel 2:
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Jesus's return, His Second Coming is Ezekiel 39:21-29.

The Gog/Magog event 7 years earlier in Ezekiel 39:1-16.

Gog/Magog has not taken place yet, proved by there not being some mass grave site of Gog's army in Israel - yet, Ezekiel 39:11.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

You really do manipulate Scripture to say what you want.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The great tribulation is Joel2:30-32. Still forthcoming.

Joel 2:
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Jesus's return, His Second Coming is Ezekiel 39:21-29.

The Gog/Magog event 7 years earlier in Ezekiel 39:1-16.

Gog/Magog has not taken place yet, proved by there not being some mass grave site of Gog's army in Israel - yet, Ezekiel 39:11.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

Were you not trying to say that "the latter days" only refers to the future? I show you a passage that says the last days began a long time already (Acts 2:16-18) and you just ignore that as if scripture says nothing about the past or nothing about ongoing things of the past almost 2,000 years.

Tell me, has this somehow not yet occurred:

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel talked about "the latter days" and Peter indicated that the day of Pentecost was part of "the last days". So, why would we try to say that a verse talking about the pouring out of God's Spirit on the house of Israel is not related to the day of Pentecost when exactly that happened?

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.....12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

So, you have a prophecy from Ezekiel 39 saying that God would pour out His Spirit on the house of Israel in the latter days and then we have a NT scripture showing God pouring out His Spirit on the house of Israel in the last days, but these two passages are somehow not related?

 

[honeycomb]

Joel 2:
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Amen, Douggg. And here too, in the book of Acts, the Lord tells us exactly the same thing in exactly the same order.
"But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

- Acts 2:16-21

 

[honeycomb]

The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Isn’t the tribulation at the sounding of the 5th trumpet? What do you think?

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

- Revelation 9:1-11

 

[honeycomb]

Were you not trying to say that "the latter days" only refers to the future? I show you a passage that says the last days began a long time already (Acts 2:16-18) and you just ignore that as if scripture says nothing about the past or nothing about ongoing things of the past almost 2,000 years.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

- Acts 2:14-21

Acts 2:16-18 is a prophecy about the latter days. Peter is claiming that this is an example of what Joel predicted would happen, but keep in mind that Joel said it would not happen until “the last days.”

 

[Douggg]

Tell me, has this somehow not yet occurred:

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God

Not yet occurred because the house of Israel has yet to believe upon Jesus and the gospel of Salvation.

Ezekiel talked about "the latter days" and Peter indicated that the day of Pentecost was part of "the last days". So, why would we try to say that a verse talking about the pouring out of God's Spirit on the house of Israel is not related to the day of Pentecost when exactly that happened?

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.....1

In Acts 2, there were Jews from different nations, who had different languages. Yet were able to understand each other, by God making it possible.

Peter related it to what Joel said about God pouring out His Spirit in the last days. It does not mean that Peter was living the last days when Jesus will return, as we can see in retrospect.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus having returned, His Second Coming, and the house of Israel from then on will know that Jesus is the Lord their God. Something the house of Israel presently does not believe.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

In Ezekiel 39:29, God no longer hides his face from the house of Israel - speaking of the change from the past 2000 years - the blindness that has come upon Israel is currently in. But will change in the middle part of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

However, for most of the first part of the 7 years, the Jews will have made the big mistake of thinking the Antichrist is their King of Israel messiah.

A couple of enlightening verses in John 1 are....

41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

So the Antichrist person to be the Antichrist - he will be anointed the King of Israel messiah. A critical event in eschatology. In Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse (a messianic figure) is given a crown. That crown will be as the King of Israel,

-----------------------------------

So who is going to do the anointing? The false prophet of Revelation 13, who the Jews will initially think he is Elijah.

If you notice in John 1, when the religious Jews spoke to John the Baptist, they ask him if he was Elijah.

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.


Today's Jews (Judaism) are expecting Elijah to come. To be a part of the messianic era startup. And the Jews believe that messiah will be anointed the King of Israel, by a known prophet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

- Acts 2:14-21

Acts 2:16-18 is a prophecy about the latter days. Peter is claiming that this is an example of what Joel predicted would happen, but keep in mind that Joel said it would not happen until “the last days.”

Please read the passage carefully. Peter said regarding Joel 2:28-32 in reference to what was happening on the day of Pentecost, "this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" after which he proceeded to quote Joel 2:28-32. So, he was including the day of Pentecost among the last days. Now, this doesn't mean the entirety of Joel 2:28-32 was fulfilled on that day (it says last days, not last day), but it certainly means it began to be fulfilled on that day. That means the last days had already begun at that point and they continue still today. As Peter indicated elsewhere, the last days will continue until the second coming of Christ:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

So, according to Peter in scripture, the last days extend from at least the day of Pentecost (I would say from the time Jesus was first revealed as the Messiah, but let's not get bogged down in semantics) until the future second coming of Christ. So, the phrase "the last days" is not meant to be understood as a short period of time, but rather to the last time period in history after Christ came the first time. Once He comes there will be no more time.

You might be saying "but the last days scoffers" are only doing that shortly before His second coming, so how can the last days have already begun? Well, people have been scoffing at His second coming for a long time now.

Jude 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Notice here that Jude referenced what Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:3-4 and said "these are the people who divide you", so there were people scoffing about His second coming already in those days, which were part of "the last days" that we're still in now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not yet occurred because the house of Israel has yet to believe upon Jesus and the gospel of Salvation.

It's not talking about the entire house of Israel believing which is not a reasonable thing to believe at all. There were 3,000 Israelite Christian converts on the day of Pentecost alone:

Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Ezekiel 39:29 isn't referring to every person in the house of Israel any more than the following verse is talking about God pouring out His spirit on literally all people:

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

I'm sure you would agree that God hasn't poured out His spirit on literally all people despite what this verse says, so why would you think that Ezekiel 39:29 is talking about God pouring out His Spirit on literally everyone in the nation of Israel?

In Acts 2, there were Jews from different nations, who had different languages. Yet were able to understand each other, by God making it possible.

Yeah. So, the house of Israel all came together in Israel that day.

Paul related it

It was Peter.

to what Joel said about God pouring out His Spirit in last days. It does not mean that Paul was living the last days when Jesus will return, as we can see in retrospect.

It means Peter (well, Paul, too, but Peter was speaking there) was living in part of the last days. I never said that the Spirit being poured out on the day of Pentecost comprised all of the last days. It says the last days, not the last day. But, clearly, the last days had already begun at that point or else Peter applying what was happening that day to the prophecy in Joel 2:28-32 would not make any sense. God began pouring out His Spirit in believers that day and every day since then until today. We are still in the last days today. But, there is no reason to limit Ezekiel 39:29 to a short time before Christ returns when we know the last days already began long ago.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus having returned, His Second Coming, and the house of Israel from then on will know that Jesus is the Lord their God. Something the house of Israel presently do not believe.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

You are making the mistake of thinking that is saying every single person in the house of Israel would believe that, but that is not what it means any more than Acts 2:16 is saying God would pour out His Spirit on literally all people. Do you take Acts 2:16 as literally as you do Ezekiel 39:29? I'm sure you don't. But, why not? Where is the consistency in your method of interpretation? I don't see it. Instead, I see you trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

In Ezekiel 39:29, God no longer hides his face from the house of Israel - speaking the change from the past 2000 years - the blindness that has come upon Israel. But will change in the middle part of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

This comes from a mistaken understanding of Romans 11. You think that all of Israel was blinded and some day the blindness will be removed. That is not at all what Paul taught in Romans 11.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

How do you interpret this passage? Based on other things you have said, I would think that you interpret this passage to be saying that all of Israel were blinded and fell and some day all of Israel will have their blindness removed. Do I have it right?

Yet, what does the passage actually say? Let's take a closer look. First, Paul points out that at that time back then there was "a remnant according to the election of grace" in Israel and he said "the elect hath obtained" what they looked for, "and the rest were blinded". So, when he later talks about Israel being blinded in part, this is what he meant. He meant that there was an elect remnant of saved Israelite believers "and the rest were blinded".

Then what does Paul point out? He indicates that they did not fall, but rather they stumbled. In your doctrine, it seems that you believe they fell and didn't just stumble. But, Paul said "God forbid" to that idea. So, why were they blinded and why did they stumble? Paul told us. It was for the purpose of salvation coming to the Gentiles which, in turn, would provoke the blinded Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. And, notice how Paul indicates that he wanted to help save some of his fellow Israelites who had been blinded. In your doctrine, you put off the removal of their blindness far into the future, but Paul indicated that their blindness could be removed still in his day as he hoped to help saved some of those who were blinded. As he said a little later about them in verse 23: "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.".

So, this process of salvation being offered to Gentiles, who in turn provoke Israelites to jealousy, began long ago and still continues today. Your doctrine has postponed salvation for Israel for almost 2,000 years despite the fact that many of them have been saved over the past 2,000 years. And it's largely a result of taking passages like Romans 11 and Ezekiel 39 out of context.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isn’t the tribulation at the sounding of the 5th trumpet? What do you think?

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

- Revelation 9:1-11

I believe it starts at that time, but I'm not sure if it's for the same reasons you believe it is. I believe that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan. It describes him as an angel and the king of the figurative locusts in the bottomless pit. I believe the locusts figuratively represent fallen angels. Who else do the fallen angels have as their king except for Satan (Revelation 12:9, Revelation 25:41)?

So, I see the opening of the bottomless pit here as being the time when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:7-9). There are a number of parallel visions in the book of Revelation and I believe trumpets 5-7 parallel Revelation 20:7-9.

 

[Douggg]

It was Peter.

I will correct my post.

 

[Douggg]

And it's largely a result of taking passages like Romans 11 and Ezekiel 39 out of context.

As far as Ezekiel 39, we know for sure that it has not happened yet because of Ezekiel 39:11. No burial site yet of Gog's army.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As far as Ezekiel 39, we know for sure that it has not happened yet because of Ezekiel 39:11. No burial site yet of Gog's army.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

So, just ignore how Ezekiel 39:29 closely resembles Acts 2:16-18 then. The whole chapter is somehow not related to the time when God already started pouring out His Spirit on the house of Israel. So much for letting scripture interpret scripture. Also, Ezekiel is a highly symbolic book. Why you want to take the whole thing literally is beyond me. And your interpretation of it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. There's that detail that you don't want to deal with, either. Doug's motto is "What saith Ezekiel 39? Who cares whether the rest of scripture saith what I think Ezekiel 39th saith".

 

[Douggg]

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

How do you interpret this passage? Based on other things you have said, I would think that you interpret this passage to be saying that all of Israel were blinded and fell and some day all of Israel will have their blindness removed. Do I have it right?

Romans 11;25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Individual Jews are saved everyday. But as a whole, most are unsaved. But that will change in the middle of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27 (same as the 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39). The rapture will have already happened, the fullness of the Gentiles.

Revelation 12:10 is referring to the Jews (Israel)

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And Revelation 12:17 is referring to Jews (Israel), who did not flee to the mountains in a timely manner when the abominatin of desolation is setup.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 11;25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Individual Jews are saved everyday. But as a whole, most are unsaved. But that will change in the middle of the forthcoming 7 years of Daniel 9:27 (same as the 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39). The rapture will have already happened, the fullness of the Gentiles.

Revelation 12:10 is referring to the Jews (Israel)

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And Revelation 12:17 is referring to Jews (Israel), who did not flee to the mountains in a timely manner when the abominatin of desolation is setup.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I asked how you interpret Romans 11:5-14. Can you comment on that first before we move on from there, please? Then I will comment on what you said here.