The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

So, just ignore how Ezekiel 39:29 closely resembles Acts 2:16-18 then. The whole chapter is somehow not related to the time when God already started pouring out His Spirit on the house of Israel. So much for letting scripture interpret scripture. Also, Ezekiel is a highly symbolic book. Why you want to take the whole thing literally is beyond me. And your interpretation of it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture. There's that detail that you don't want to deal with, either. Doug's motto is "What saith Ezekiel 39? Who cares whether the rest of scripture saith what I think Ezekiel 39th saith".

Ezekiel 39 fits in with these other end times time frames and events. Take a look. You will see Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews all throughout.

 

[Douggg]

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

verse 5 - a portion of the Jews have been saved - in Paul's day
verse 6 - saved by graced, not works.
verse 7 - the saved had seen the light. Israel though as a whole had not obtained what it desires - i.e. good standing with God.
verse 8 - Israel in a state of unbelief because they rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah
verse 9 - Israel rejection of Jesus has become a stumbling block - for Israel to have good standing with God
verse 10 - metaphoric description of Israel's situation.
verse 11 - rhetorical question - does Israel stumbling result in falling permanently away from God's eternal covenant made with them?
Paul says, no. But their temporary fall, allowed for eternal salvation of the soul to be offered to the Gentiles.
verse 12 - If Israel's fall be a loss in relationship to God, then how great is the opportunity to the Gentiles to receive the Gospel of Salvation.
verse 13 - Paul stating that he is an apostle of Christ to the Gentiles, who have embraced Christ.
verse 14 - Paul stating being so, it is of his upmost desire to reach out to his fellow Jews, to emulate himself - i.e. a Jew, who became saved in Christ.

 

[The Light]

Isn’t the tribulation at the sounding of the 5th trumpet? What do you think?

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

- Revelation 9:1-11

I think the 5th trumpet is one of the trumpets of Gods wrath. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. When it's over the second coming of Jesus is the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

 

[honeycomb]

I believe that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan. It describes him as an angel and the king of the figurative locusts in the bottomless pit. I believe the locusts figuratively represent fallen angels. Who else do the fallen angels have as their king except for Satan (Revelation 12:9, Revelation 25:41)?

So, I see the opening of the bottomless pit here as being the time when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:7-9). There are a number of parallel visions in the book of Revelation and I believe trumpets 5-7 parallel Revelation 20:7-9.

Revelation 20:7-9 happens after the 1,000-year millennium. This is when the full Godhead will come to live on earth with His saints in eternity. This differs from the "Day of the Lord," which occurred at the 7th trump when Jesus Christ appeared and established His millennial kingdom. The Great White Throne Judgment follows this and then a new heaven and a new earth, which is the New Jerusalem.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

- Revelation 20:7-15

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

- Revelation 21:1-4

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not so! We have tried to, but you are incapable of bringing biblical evidence to the table and discussing it. You have absolutely nothing to present. You seem incapable of exegeting a passage. All you have is your constant slander, lies and avoidance. Because of this, all you have now is to run. The white flag was put up a long time ago.

Lying has become part of your DNA.

You are hopelessly mired in lying, nastiness, and a bad attitude.
Thoughtful posts are no longer anywhere in your constant spews.
...as you demonstrate to us.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your New Testament has been mistranslated to support the Trinitarian doctrine, which was formulated in the 300s and enforced among Christians at the point of a sword. Not a very proud moment for Christians.

The truth is, according to Paul, God made the creation FOR his son and his mission.

Jesus isn't Yahweh. Jesus is Jesus.

Your translation supplied the word "him" where it should have read "it." According to John, "the word" was "in the beginning." All one needs to do is go back to Genesis to verify what John means to say.

Genesis 1:3-5

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”​

Here, we see that the vehicle of creation is the spoken word. God speaks things into existence. According to John, "All things were created by IT (the spoken word), and without IT (the spoken word) was not anything made that was made."

The first thing God created was light and John makes the connection between the creation light and the promise of life, which is the light of all men.

Trinitarians have corrupted John's gospel by introducing the concept of a Godhead where one was not intended by John. Once the Trinitarian dogma is removed, a wonderful declaration of God's eternal plan for salvation and Jesus' preeminence is revealed.


Another translation bent toward the False doctrine of Trinitarianism. John is saying that the word was created FOR him, not BY him.


To comprehend this passage, it's necessary to understand the preceding two paragraphs. John draws a parallel between God bringing light into the world through the spoken word in the form of electromagnetic radiation and how God brought light in the form of wisdom and divine revelation through his Son, who is the Light. It was "He" the light that came unto his own. He became the embodiment of the Light and dwelt among his people. And they beheld his glory (light) as of a one-of-a-kind Son.


It's also a common trait of those who attempt to show others what has happened to our faith over the centuries.

Not "BY" Jesus Christ. FOR Jesus Christ. The idea that God used an agent to create the world is Gnosticism, describing a divine being called the Demiurge, the agent responsible for creating the world. Why did the ancients believe this? They thought that the physical world was inherently evil and since God does not do evil, he can't be responsible for creating the physical world.

The Bible does not teach or infer that the physical world is evil.

Here the term "dia" means "in view of him."

What do u do with the deity of Jesus verses.
Christians believe that Jesus is deity or equal to God, but God is not Jesus.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It makes sense for a deity to raise a man from the dead. But a deity can't die. So it doesn't make sense for a deity to raise himself from the dead.

In Every human death, the spirit does not die.
Same with Jesus.
The body died.
The body is not the person.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I also said that the NASB had the same influence. I see that the passage says "by Him all things were created." But that is NOT what Paul meant. This is obvious to most people who read the entire passage carefully.

Genesis says "let US CREATE man in our image"

 

[rebuilder 454]

I use the NASB because it is the closest to the original Greek.

I prefer to use the NASB for the reasons I gave earlier.

Consider, though, the doctrine of the Trinity is like an electrified fence. Those who create translations, lexicons, dictionaries and commentaries don't want to get too close to it for fear of death (of career.) Many of us know this by experience.


I don't expect you to believe me, but I was hoping that you would think about the passage with me instead of rejecting everything out of hand. Remember, you brought it up. I didn't.

What do you mean by "people like me?" Is your chair comfortable?

King James is almost word for word the original Greek.
(The recieved text interlinear)

 

[rebuilder 454]

I only present it to expose your lies.

Amils here do not talk like you Pretribbers. We are Christians. You guys wallow in this evil rhetoric.

All the time, you are incapable of engaging in fruitful biblical discussions. That is because you have nothing solid to bring to the table.

Sad you can not tell the truth.

 

[rwb]

This is how I understand these things.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When our flesh (natural) body dies we are all given spiritual bodies. Every one of us, both the saved and the unsaved that are still alive in our flesh bodies at Christ's return. Remember, we are talking about bodies here, not souls! *That is not to say we will have become immortal. We will just be changed into a spiritual body that's incorruptible but not necessarily immortal. Only those overcomers who go through the First Resurrection will have immortality (eternal life).

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Two separate events: First, our flesh body is changed into a spiritual body, either at Christ's return or when we die in the flesh, whichever happens first. Second, some of us (overcomers, those not deceived, those who endure until the end) will be granted eternal life/immortality at Christ's return (The First Resurrection) and the rest must wait until after the 1,000-year Millennium, when at the Great White Throne Judgment, they will either be granted eternal life/immortality (The Second Resurrection) or eternal death (the Second Death), which is to perish (along wth Satan in "The Lake of Fire") and be no more, for God is a consuming fire.

Now here, the topic of discussion changes from bodies to souls:
54 So when (#1) this corruptible (body) shall have put on incorruption, and ( #2) this mortal (soul)shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I believe that in this passage Paul gives us assurance of life even after we physically die. Because the life we HAVE in Him is FOREVER. While alive in Christ on earth we are the physical body of spiritually alive believers. And we have this promise that when we are alive in Christ we shall NEVER die. Not even death of our physical, mortal body can separate us from our Lord. That's why Paul writes that when the body of Christ (Christians) dies and returns to the earth, as spiritual body we ascend to heaven just as the spirit of Christ did when His body breathed its last. Just as the spirit or His essence of life went to be with the Father in heaven, so too as the body of Christ, belonging to Him, alive though His Spirit in us ascend a spiritual body to heaven to be with the Lord forever. For not even death shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Romans 8:38-39 (KJV) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

While it is true we are a living spiritual body of believers in heaven after our body breathes its last, we shall not be whole again until the final trumpet sounds, and our mortal physical body is resurrected immortal and incorruptible made alive again through our spirits that return with the Lord when the final trumpet sounds. If we are not a living spiritual body of believers in heaven with the Lord after our mortal, corruptible body has died what part of us returns from heaven with Christ the final day of the Lord? We shall come back with Christ a spiritual body from heaven because flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, neither corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:49-50 (KJV) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

On earth, in Christ outwardly we bear the image of a physical body of believers, after our physical body dies, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly body, just as the angels of God in heaven, who are a spiritual body there. That's why Paul writes not only of physical bodies of all things physically alive on earth, he also writes of celestial bodies that are of the spiritual realm as heavenly bodies there. Because heaven is the abode of God, Who is Spirit and His angels are as He is, and we too shall as be the angels of God in heaven when we have physically died in Christ. Christ speaks of being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, long ago dead, yet saying they are alive with God because He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. That's because the first resurrection is of grace through faith from the moment we believe the Son of God gives us ETERNAL life through His Spirit and that life shall never die.

Matthew 22:28-32 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

As you've said the first event that man MUST partake of before physical death is the "first resurrection" through Christ according to grace through faith. If we have partaken of Christ in life before physical death, then, like Christ, death has lost its power over us because death of our physical body does not mean death for the eternal spiritual body of believers kept alive after physical death through the Spirit of Christ in us. Because we have this promise when we have Christ Spirit in us, He shall never leave us.

Hebrews 13:5 (KJV) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[rwb]

Amen, Douggg. And here too, in the book of Acts, the Lord tells us exactly the same thing in exactly the same order.
"But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

- Acts 2:16-21

Joel's prophecy began to come to pass at Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out upon whosoever believes. That is all men without distinction, but not all men without exception, but all men who believe the Gospel. The signs Joel foretells shall still come to pass just as it is written, but before that final day of the Lord, when He shall come again, whosoever shall be saved must call on the name of the LORD! That is the whole purpose for The Day of the Lord! Because that is when mankind throughout the whole earth shall hear the Gospel proclaimed and all who believe shall be saved. The Day of the Lord the prophets foretell would come, has come! His Day began when He came to earth a man, and His glorious Day foretold will end when the last trumpet sounds that TIME (i.e. The Day of the Lord) shall be no longer. This earth won't be given another one thousand years after the Lord returns.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[rwb]

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

- Acts 2:14-21

Acts 2:16-18 is a prophecy about the latter days. Peter is claiming that this is an example of what Joel predicted would happen, but keep in mind that Joel said it would not happen until “the last days.”

But according to Peter's words these "last days" began at Pentecost, and proof of this is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all who believe. We have been living in the latter days, or these last days from the first advent of Christ come to earth, and these last days shall end, not continue for one thousand plus more years, when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 20:7-9 happens after the 1,000-year millennium. This is when the full Godhead will come to live on earth with His saints in eternity. This differs from the "Day of the Lord," which occurred at the 7th trump when Jesus Christ appeared and established His millennial kingdom. The Great White Throne Judgment follows this and then a new heaven and a new earth, which is the New Jerusalem.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

- Revelation 20:7-15

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

- Revelation 21:1-4

The Great White Throne Judgment Day happens after the seventh trumpet sounds that TIME shall be no longer. How can there be another one thousand years of TIME since time given this earth shall be finished when the seventh trumpet sounds? You are still waiting for the Day of the Lord to come, just as the Old Covenant nation of Israel. Why? It seems you as they have failed to understand the Day of the Lord has come, is present now, and shall end one day when time given this earth to be saved is finished.

 

[honeycomb]

The Great White Throne Judgment Day happens after the seventh trumpet sounds that TIME shall be no longer. How can there be another one thousand years of TIME since time given this earth shall be finished when the seventh trumpet sounds? You are still waiting for the Day of the Lord to come, just as the Old Covenant nation of Israel. Why? It seems you as they have failed to understand the Day of the Lord has come, is present now, and shall end one day when time given this earth to be saved is finished.

Hello…
I haven’t yet read your other posts because I’m a little busy at the moment, but I certainly will later.

I believe that the Millennium refers to the thousand-year period mentioned in Revelation 20:4, and that it begins after the Second Coming of Jesus at the 7th trump. Here’s why—

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:1-4

Petra

 

[rwb]

Hello…
I haven’t yet read your other posts because I’m a little busy at the moment, but I certainly will later.

I believe that the Millennium refers to the thousand-year period mentioned in Revelation 20:4, and that it begins after the Second Coming of Jesus at the 7th trump. Here’s why—

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:1-4

View attachment 48344Petra

The reason given for the binding of Satan is "so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished." Would you NOT agree that since the cross of Christ the deception Satan held over the nations has been lifted? IOW Satan no longer has power to hold Gentiles of faith in Christ in bondage to death, knowing they have been delivered from bondage to sin and death. If the nations (Gentiles) are no longer deceived through fear of death that Satan HAD power to hold over them, does it not stand to reason that the cross of Christ defeating sin and death has already rendered the power of Satan to deceive the nations defeated? Christ gives us assurance that Satan has already been defeated and his binding accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit when we believe the Gospel proclaimed.

A thousand years is not one thousand years, but symbolically speaks of time given this earth for mankind to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. That's why in Rev 20 John writes not only of those disembodied faithful souls in heaven who have "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years", AND also speaks of others who "shall reign with Christ a thousand years." If a thousand years literally meant one thousand years to come, when Satan shall be bound, how could these martyred souls still be alive after they have lived and reigned with Christ during this time?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [Past tense before they were physically martyred]

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [Future tense of those not martyred who shall also reign with Christ during this same period of time]

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

verse 5 - a portion of the Jews have been saved - in Paul's day
verse 6 - saved by graced, not works.
verse 7 - the saved had seen the light. Israel though as a whole had not obtained what it desires - i.e. good standing with God.
verse 8 - Israel in a state of unbelief because they rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah
verse 9 - Israel rejection of Jesus has become a stumbling block - for Israel to have good standing with God
verse 10 - metaphoric description of Israel's situation.
verse 11 - rhetorical question - does Israel stumbling result in falling permanently away from God's eternal covenant made with them?
Paul says, no. But their temporary fall, allowed for eternal salvation of the soul to be offered to the Gentiles.
verse 12 - If Israel's fall be a loss in relationship to God, then how great is the opportunity to the Gentiles to receive the Gospel of Salvation.
verse 13 - Paul stating that he is an apostle of Christ to the Gentiles, who have embraced Christ.
verse 14 - Paul stating being so, it is of his upmost desire to reach out to his fellow Jews, to emulate himself - i.e. a Jew, who became saved in Christ.

Thank you. This is exactly what I wish you and the pretribs would do more often so we can see exactly how you interpret scripture. Just posting a bunch of opinions back and forth without any exegesis of scripture does not make for productive discussion.

So, can you see that the blindness of some of the unbelieving Jews in Paul's day was already being removed back then since Paul talked about saving "some of them" who had been blinded in verse 14? The plan God put in place back then was to bring salvation to the Gentiles, which, in turn, would provoke the Jews to jealousy so that they too would want to accept the gospel and be saved like Paul was. Right? That plan has been ongoing ever since.

So, with this being the case, why do you postpone Israel's salvation until some later time when salvation through faith in Christ has been offered to all of them for the past almost 2,000 years? The blindness of Israelites is never permanent. It happens for the purpose of Gentile believers provoking them to jealousy. Salvation has not been postponed for them at all, so why do you act as if it has?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lying has become part of your DNA.

You are hopelessly mired in lying, nastiness, and a bad attitude.
Thoughtful posts are no longer anywhere in your constant spews.
...as you demonstrate to us.

Yes, you have proven to be a model Christian with your behavior on this forum. LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:7-9 happens after the 1,000-year millennium.

Yes, it does. We all believe that whether we're amil or premil. But, what we disagree on is the timing of the thousand years in relation to the second coming of Christ.

This is when the full Godhead will come to live on earth with His saints in eternity. This differs from the "Day of the Lord," which occurred at the 7th trump when Jesus Christ appeared and established His millennial kingdom.

Can you explain to me clearly how exactly an earthly millennial kingdom can occur after the following occurs?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What does Peter say we should be looking for in according with the promise of His coming? An earthly millennial kingdom or "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amen, Douggg. And here too, in the book of Acts, the Lord tells us exactly the same thing in exactly the same order.
"But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'

- Acts 2:16-21

Do you agree that Acts 2:16-21 (Joel 2:28-32) began being fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and continued to be fulfilled after and will continue to be fulfilled up until the day of the Lord when Christ returns? Because that's the point I'm making which I'm not sure whether or not you or Douggg are getting.