The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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They mean what the Scripture says.
The Scripture says that they were "of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Revelation 7:4
They were Israelites.
Israelites were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from the beginning, and throughout the history, of the nation of Israel.
Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22
They were of a racially "mixed multitude". Exodus 12:38
Exactly what the NT Church is.
They were racially OT expressions and precursors of the NT Church.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Jesus ascended and was hidden by a cloud. He was then presented before the Father. That Happened.
He was given dominion and a kingdom.
Dan 7
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
What other time did he come up before the Father to receive a kingdom that would embrace all people and nations?
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
People from all nations and languages were given the opportunity that they MIGHT serve him- after he ascended.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You are incorrect. First, a deity can't die and since Jesus died for our sins, he is not a deity. Second, a deity is eternal and since Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, he is not a deity. Finally, everything was not created "by" him; everything was created "for" him.
And yes, you continue to lie about me, suggesting this time that I don't like being called out.
If this thread is shut down, remember that you and WPM raised the issue here. Not I.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I believe in the inerrancy of scripture. I question any translation of scripture that is plagued with contradictions and errors, such as the one you quoted. Paul didn't claim that Jesus created the world. How absurd is that? Paul claimed that God created the world FOR him.
And so why do you ignore the issues I raised? They defeat your argument. You cannot deny that Jesus died for your sins or that he was born of the virgin Mary. You can't deny that Jesus is the firstborn among all creation. A deity doesn't die; a deity isn't born, and a deity isn't created.
Deal with the facts.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
To understand Daniel 7, we notice Daniel's use of "kingdom" and "dominion." The term "kingdom" can have several different meanings.
A. Kingdom:
Political: A country, state, or territory ruled by a king or queen, such as the Kingdom of Norway.
Spiritual: The spiritual reign or authority of God, often referred to in religious contexts as the Kingdom of Heaven.
We can all agree that Jesus Christ has been granted a kingdom. At the moment, his kingdom is a spiritual kingdom; Jesus is the king who reigns under the authority of God. That is on the one hand. On the other hand, Jesus is not yet ruling over a country, state or territory; he has yet to take dominion over all the nations of the world.
B. Dominion:
Territory: The land or region that is under the control of a particular ruler or government. Historically, this term was used to describe territories within the British Empire.
I believe that Jesus has not yet been granted dominion over all the nations. While he rules the hearts and minds of his followers, he has yet to rule over the territories of the earth.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Ok. So how about telling us how this proves Pretrib? What is more, where does it teach a tribulation period followed by your 3rd coming?
I have already explained this passage several times on this thread and you have already avoided that several times.
How can you deny the deity of Christ but still insist He is NOT God? How do you define the deity of God?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He is both God and man at the same time. Man can die, but God cannot. He never stopped being God and did not die in His deity. You are sadly mistaken and deceived. Why is it that you can't allow for Him to be God and man at the same time? Scripture very clearly teaches that He was, so why deny it? Sure, it's not an easy thing to understand, but we're talking about God here. He can do anything, including come to earth as a man without giving up His deity.
Again, you are not considering that He is God and man at the same time. Why do you not allow for that possibility? You are thinking very carnally here like a Pharisee. They too had no concept of spiritual and supernatural things.
What have I lied about? I'm going by what you're saying. You specifically said He is not deity and is only a man. I'm saying that's not true. What am I lying about exactly? Nothing. You are lying by saying that I'm lying.
Who said anything about this thread being shut down?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Hello, please tell me how what you're saying lines up with these passages:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
What's really sad is not realizing that if one does not believe Jesus IS God in the flesh, they are without a Savior! They are still dead in trespasses and sins, destined to die twice!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
I don't always get alerts on posts, and I think it's because I leave several browsers open. That's all I can figure out. I have to go back through tons of pages to find if anyone has posted anything.............and you post so much.
So I have never seen you posts. Please copy and paste so I can read it.
This is just a big joke to you. Sad!
Yahweh is identified as the Creator of this World. However, the New Testament repeatedly demonstrates that Jesus Christ is the Creator. The only way that Yahweh could have done these things “alone” or ‘by Himself’ is if Jesus is Yahweh.
The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
Verse 10-14 continues, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ. It reveals the King of Glory in all His marvellous provision, purpose and power. The reading outlines His eternal pre-existence, powerfully revealing Him as the eternal Son of God; “The same was in the beginning with God” (v 2). Whilst, Christ was man of very man, He was also God of very God. Verse 1 succinctly says, “the Word was God.” Therefore, as the second person of the Trinity, He was the eternal Creator of this world.” Verse 10 tells us, “the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are. They butcher the original language. The Greek word dia is actually a primary preposition denoting: "the channel of an act" (Strong's). Jesus was the channel whom the Father worked through. He was the Creator. How do you sleep at night knowing you are going to have to face Jesus some day and account for twisting the Word of God and deceiving people?
The Bible acknowledges Jesus as the Word, the Creator.
Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”
Colossians 1:13-17 says: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
This passage, which is speaking of Jesus, tells us that “all things were created by him, and for him” which would clearly make Him God.
Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”
Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.
These verses show the pre-existence of Christ the Son of God the Creator.
This is the only time in the Bible that this word is found.
The phrase “express image” derives from the lone Greek word charakter which means what it says: “character.” Christ is “the brightness of” God’s “glory” and the “charakter of his person.” Christ is the physical manifestation or representation of the invisible God. He is indeed the “express image” of Almighty God. Jesus is God. God physically is expressed in the person of Christ.
Hebrews 2:9-10 declares: “we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”
Revelation 3:14 declares: “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
The designation “faithful and true” belongs to Christ. We see that in the depiction of the Second Coming in Revelation 19:11: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”
Revelation 4:10-11 declares: “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What do you think you're proving here? Joel 2:28-32 contains a prophecy about "the last days" which ended up having already begun before the day of Pentecost long ago.
Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
So, the last days had already begun when God started pouring out His Spirit on the day of Pentecost long ago. He has been pouring out His Spirit on people ever since. So, with that in mind, how should a verse like this be understood:
Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.
Is this not something that God already was doing beginning on the day of Pentecost long ago? Yes, it is. So, you need to understand that Ezekiel 38-39 is figurative text describing what was going to happen at the first coming of Christ, not the second coming. Sure, it has some text in common with Revelation 19, but it's not surprising that text related to His first coming would be similar to text related to His second coming. In His first coming, He spiritually defeated Satan and his angels on the cross.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Hebrews 2:14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
So, while Jesus destroyed the devil with His death, it didn't mean the devil was literally destroyed. It meant that the power of death was taken away from the devil so that he could no longer keep the world in captivity through their fear of death. Jesus set the captives free.
But, at His second coming, Jesus will literally defeat Satan by having him cast into the lake of fire for eternity. So, you are not seeing that spiritual realities are sometimes described using physical terms in prophetic books like Ezekiel and Revelation.
You think your interpretation of Ezekiel 39 somehow proves something and yet your interpretation of it contradicts much other scripture. Such as the scriptures which clearly indicate that no mortal people will survive the second coming of Christ. But, you don't care about that.
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Luke 21:33-36, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
Please note the color coding.
The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.
The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.
Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.
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