The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21:33-36, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Please noite the color coding.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.

Agree.

Jesus said we should pray to be accounted worthy to escape what God's enemies will not escape, which Paul references here:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

And then, of course, Peter provided details in 2 Peter 3:10-12 about what would cause the "sudden" destruction from which "they shall not escape" by saying it would be by fire coming down on the entire earth.

Jesus, Paul and Peter all indicated that the destruction from which we should pray to escape will happen on the day Jesus returns and it will happen suddenly and unexpectedly. Jesus said no one knows the day or hour and He compared it to coming unexpectedly like a thief in the night (Matt 24:42-44, Luke 12:37-40, Rev 16:15) just as both Paul and Peter did. There is nothing sudden nor unexpected about the destruction that will come upon the arrival of the day of the Lord from the pretrib point of view. One pretrib probably realized that and instead of just acknowledging the truth we have been showing, he resorted to calling it emotional destruction instead of physical destruction. The willingness of many pretribs to manipulate scripture to say what they want it to say is sad and disturbing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The term deity connotes several aspects of God that distinguish him from his creation: eternality, infinity, immutability, self-sufficiency, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and transcendence.

Jesus, as a man, lacks the divine qualities that distinguish God from his creation. He walked the earth, ate bread, cried, didn't know the times or seasons, grew from childhood to adulthood, needed his mother's care, needed his father's protection, traveled from city to city, and died for our sins. These are human attributes and limitations.

But Jesus is not like other men. He is sinless, and he is God's image in a way that no other human being can be. He is the exact representation of God's character and his will. No other human being will be God incarnate as Jesus is.

That is a lack of understanding the kinsman redeemer of Ruth.
Rev 5 says " no MAN was found in heaven are on her that could open the seals."
I don't know if you realize it or not ,but only the one who was fully God and fully man could redeem us.
In other words ,if it was not God on the cross, then the whole Plan of Salvation is off.
The entire deal depended on God being on that cross.
If you tamper with that ,you tamper with salvation.
The only thing separating Christianity from some man-made religion is the fact that God was on the cross and God raised himself from the dead.
There's no other man that you could have put on that cross that could come back from the dead.
That is why he is not only the first resurrection, but the first fruits of the first resurrection.
he is the first

even though others were raised from the dead it was God that raised them from the dead.
Salvation is a person and it's not a Doctrine or a formula. Salvation is in fact the God man Jesus
HE is salvation.

 

[WPM]

Onto your error, as several here are.

Again we note your nastiness,and biblical vacancy.
Is this across the board for amils?
Maybe point us to some that address believers respectfully and thoughtfully?

Your duplicity is hanging out of you. See the post above of your bile. You do not know what "respectfully and thoughtfully" looks like. If you did then you would apologize and address the overwhelming evidence that exposes Pretrib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The term deity connotes several aspects of God that distinguish him from his creation: eternality, infinity, immutability, self-sufficiency, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and transcendence.

Jesus, as a man, lacks the divine qualities that distinguish God from his creation. He walked the earth, ate bread, cried, didn't know the times or seasons, grew from childhood to adulthood, needed his mother's care, needed his father's protection, traveled from city to city, and died for our sins. These are human attributes and limitations.

But Jesus is not like other men. He is sinless, and he is God's image in a way that no other human being can be. He is the exact representation of God's character and his will. No other human being will be God incarnate as Jesus is.

That is almost word for word watchtower.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Awwww
Did da widdle pushback by believers hurt your widdle feewings?
They all were pushing back against your nasty deal friend.
Don't get all hurt when the medicine is thrown back at your fragile self.

Show us when we ever called pretribbers "Satan", "evil spirits" or anything like that. Or when we ever suggested you were oppressed or possessed by evil spirits? To try to equate your evil insults with ours is a joke. Everyone here can see how utterly evil and hateful your insults are. Our insults are primarily aimed at the pretrib doctrine itself, except for calling anyone here who denies the deity of Jesus a heretic. We don't need to apologize for that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is almost word for word watchtower.

So, let's ask him then.

@CadyandZoe Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

 

[CadyandZoe]

He is both God and man at the same time.

Nonetheless, He can not be a deity and a man simultaneously.

Man can die, but God cannot.

Correct.

He never stopped being God and did not die in His deity.

He never stopped being the image of God. (Colossians 1:15) Even while he was the firstborn of all creation. He was never deity. He was a human, born to a mother with all the physical limitations of other human beings. He was created by God to be "him" in his creation.

You are sadly mistaken and deceived. Why is it that you can't allow for Him to be God and man at the same time?

Because the claim that Jesus is both deity and man at the same time violates the law of non-contradiction. That claim has a basis in Greek philosophy not the Bible. And it is the basis of other Catholic false teaching such as the "real presence." They have this goofy claim that Jesus' body is located in a piece of bread and that his blood is located in a glass of wine.

Scripture very clearly teaches that He was, so why deny it?

No. Scripture does not claim that Jesus is both deity and man simultaneously.

Sure, it's not easy to understand.

It's impossible to understand. Belief in Jesus Christ is not gullibility.

He can do anything, including come to earth as a man, without giving up His deity.

To be accurate, according to the Bible, God created a man who perfectly embodies his character and his will. But Jesus has a will of his own, as exemplified by his prayer in the garden, "Abba Father, everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Mark 24:36

Again, you are not considering that He is God and man at the same time.

False teaching.

Why do you not allow for that possibility?

Contradiction.

You are thinking very carnally here like a Pharisee.

False.

Who said anything about this thread being shut down?

Don't you know?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your duplicity is hanging out of you. See the post above of your bile. You do not know what "respectfully and thoughtfully" looks like. If you did then you would apologize and address the overwhelming evidence that exposes Pretrib.

You are just too Nasty to have a normal back and forth with.
It is not going to happen.
You are completely void of a normal back and forth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

That is a mistranslation. It should read "The world was made for him."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your duplicity is hanging out of you. See the post above of your bile. You do not know what "respectfully and thoughtfully" looks like. If you did then you would apologize and address the overwhelming evidence that exposes Pretrib.

Absolutely agree. When have we ever called them "Satan" or "evil spirits" or anything like that? Never. Do those like us who passionately argue in support of the deity of Christ follow Satan or evil spirits? Of course not. So, they are way out of line with those kinds of insults.

 

[WPM]

You are just too Nasty to have a normal back and forth with.
It is not going to happen.
You are completely void of a normal back and forth.

Not so! We have tried to, but you are incapable of bringing biblical evidence to the table and discussing it. You have absolutely nothing to present. You seem incapable of exegeting a passage. All you have is your constant slander, lies and avoidance. Because of this, all you have now is to run. The white flag was put up a long time ago.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is a mistranslation. It should read "The world was made for him."

That's what you will say in response to any truth that is presented to you. That is what those who are brainwashed by cults do. You are blind and deceived.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

What will you do to try to twist this scripture which says all things were created by Jesus and for Jesus?

 

[WPM]

Absolutely agree. When have we ever called them "Satan" or "evil spirits" or anything like that? Never. Do those like us who passionately argue in support of the deity of Christ follow Satan or evil spirits? Of course not. So, they are way out of line with those kinds of insults.

Yes! They are blind to how they come across. There is no conviction. Not one Pretribber has apologized for this bile. They laugh at it and defend it. They somehow think this is acceptable in a Christian discussion. It is all projection. Then they want to play the victim and say we are nasty when we out their avoidance and bitterness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so! We have tried to, but you are incapable of bringing biblical evidence to the table and discussing it. You have absolutely nothing to present. You seem incapable of exegeting a passage. All you have is your constant slander, lies and avoidance. Because of this, all you have now is to run. The white flag was put up a long time ago.

It is typical of human beings who have have long held beliefs to react angrily when they find out their long held beliefs are not true. But, Christians should not be like that. When I came to realize that Amil was true, I was baffled a bit at first and wondered how I didn't see it before. But, I accepted it because I accept all scripture as being true. I could have stubbornly decided that no, I have believed Premil for a long time, so I can't change my belief now. There's nothing wrong with learning new things. Actually, it's exciting to learn new things. We have to set aside our pride (the pride level of the pretribs is off the charts) and accept it and embrace it when we find out that something we thought was true is not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes! They are blind to how they come across. There is no conviction. Not one Pretribber has apologized for this bile. They laugh at it and defend it. They somehow think this is acceptable in a Christian discussion. It is all projection. Then they want to play the victim and say we are nasty when we out their avoidance and bitterness.

This describes them:

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think we disagree on the subject of the godhead, or the trinity.
But I do appreciate your style and thoughtfulness.
You're willing to debate ,and these amils are not.
There is no debate once nastiness and dishonesty enters the picture

Look at this guy applauding the thoughtfulness of the heretic who denies the deity of Christ while in the meantime he says evil and nasty things to those like me who do believe in the deity of Christ. You have your priorities all out of order.

It's hilarious that you imagine yourself to be thoughtful. Do you need the list of evil and nasty things you've said to us to be listed yet again?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nonetheless, He can not be a deity and a man simultaneously.

Why not? There is nothing that says this. That is what you want to believe. You are deceived. Scripture says the world was made BY Him and FOR Him and you deny that. You deny clear scripture repeatedly. Why should anyone listen to you?

Don't you know?

Would I ask if I knew? Of course not. Why do you play games like this? Who said something about having this thread shut down?

 

[The Light]

Luke 21:33-36, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Please note the color coding.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

I have never read the left behind novels. And yet I can tell there is a pretribulation rapture based on the Word of God.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.

Heaven and earth will pass away, and the Words of our Lord will no pass away. What are His words that will not pass away.
This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
when ye see these things come to pass

Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

There is a group of people that will see these things come to pass and there is a group of people that can escape all these things that come to pass. Both groups will be raptured.

The Church will escape all these things that come to pass. What things will the Church escape? False Christs, the beast of the sea and beast of the earth. Wars, famine, pestilence and the great tribulation.

Whereas the twelve tribes across the earth will go through these things including the great tribulation. However, they are also to look up because the Lord comes immediately after the tribulation OF THOSE DAYS. That is the coming of Jesus, the second coming at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.

Two raptures........two harvests..........two brides............as Jacob had two brides and one was the chosen bride.

 

[covenantee]

That is a mistranslation. It should read "The world was made for him."

"...the world through Him came into being..."

Is the Greek a mistranslation too?

 

[WPM]

I have never read the left behind novels. And yet I can tell there is a pretribulation rapture based on the Word of God.



Heaven and earth will pass away, and the Words of our Lord will no pass away. What are His words that will not pass away.
This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
when ye see these things come to pass

Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

There is a group of people that will see these things come to pass and there is a group of people that can escape all these things that come to pass. Both groups will be raptured.

The Church will escape all these things that come to pass. What things will the Church escape? False Christs, the beast of the sea and beast of the earth. Wars, famine, pestilence and the great tribulation.

Whereas the twelve tribes across the earth will go through these things including the great tribulation. However, they are also to look up because the Lord comes immediately after the tribulation OF THOSE DAYS. That is the coming of Jesus, the second coming at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.

Two raptures........two harvests..........two brides............as Jacob had two brides and one was the chosen bride.

You have just forced your own opinions into that, where it is not. It is talking about the destruction of the earth, heavens and wicked. Jesus is going to destroy all corruption and rebellion when He comes. Read the text!