The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

"...the world through Him came into being..."

Is the Greek a mistranslation too?

Exactly bro! He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

 

[WPM]

It is typical of human beings who have have long held beliefs to react angrily when they find out their long held beliefs are not true. But, Christians should not be like that. When I came to realize that Amil was true, I was baffled a bit at first and wondered how I didn't see it before. But, I accepted it because I accept all scripture as being true. I could have stubbornly decided that no, I have believed Premil for a long time, so I can't change my belief now. There's nothing wrong with learning new things. Actually, it's exciting to learn new things. We have to set aside our pride (the pride level of the pretribs is off the charts) and accept it and embrace it when we find out that something we thought was true is not.

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head!

 

[The Light]

You need to set alerts or you will miss a lot.

I think they are set. But I am running multiple browsers because I work contract and trade stocks etc. So I always have many things going on. I'm think that the alert goes to an open browser that I do not see. I'm thinking the solution would be only open this forum on one browser but I am always multitasking so that probably won't happen.

 

[WPM]

I think they are set. But I am running multiple browsers because I work contract and trade stocks etc. So I always have many things going on. I'm think that the alert goes to an open browser that I do not see. I'm thinking the solution would be only open this forum on one browser but I am always multitasking so that probably won't happen.

Understand. It will keep a record though in top right corner.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is just a big joke to you. Sad!

Yahweh is identified as the Creator of this World. However, the New Testament repeatedly demonstrates that Jesus Christ is the Creator.

Your New Testament has been mistranslated to support the Trinitarian doctrine, which was formulated in the 300s and enforced among Christians at the point of a sword. Not a very proud moment for Christians.

The truth is, according to Paul, God made the creation FOR his son and his mission.

The only way that Yahweh could have done these things “alone” or ‘by Himself’ is if Jesus is Yahweh.

Jesus isn't Yahweh. Jesus is Jesus.

The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Your translation supplied the word "him" where it should have read "it." According to John, "the word" was "in the beginning." All one needs to do is go back to Genesis to verify what John means to say.

Genesis 1:3-5

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”​

Here, we see that the vehicle of creation is the spoken word. God speaks things into existence. According to John, "All things were created by IT (the spoken word), and without IT (the spoken word) was not anything made that was made."

The first thing God created was light and John makes the connection between the creation light and the promise of life, which is the light of all men.

Trinitarians have corrupted John's gospel by introducing the concept of a Godhead where one was not intended by John. Once the Trinitarian dogma is removed, a wonderful declaration of God's eternal plan for salvation and Jesus' preeminence is revealed.

Verse 10-14 continues, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Another translation bent toward the False doctrine of Trinitarianism. John is saying that the word was created FOR him, not BY him.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ.

To comprehend this passage, it's necessary to understand the preceding two paragraphs. John draws a parallel between God bringing light into the world through the spoken word in the form of electromagnetic radiation and how God brought light in the form of wisdom and divine revelation through his Son, who is the Light. It was "He" the light that came unto his own. He became the embodiment of the Light and dwelt among his people. And they beheld his glory (light) as of a one-of-a-kind Son.

This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are.

It's also a common trait of those who attempt to show others what has happened to our faith over the centuries.

Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Not "BY" Jesus Christ. FOR Jesus Christ. The idea that God used an agent to create the world is Gnosticism, describing a divine being called the Demiurge, the agent responsible for creating the world. Why did the ancients believe this? They thought that the physical world was inherently evil and since God does not do evil, he can't be responsible for creating the physical world.

The Bible does not teach or infer that the physical world is evil.

This passage, which is speaking of Jesus, tells us that “all things were created by him, and for him” which would clearly make Him God.

Here the term "dia" means "in view of him."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time? Yes or no?

Do you believe that Jesus, as God, created all things? Yes or no?

I don't answer Yes or No questions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have never read the left behind novels. And yet I can tell there is a pretribulation rapture based on the Word of God.

Well, you're also someone who doesn't believe like a typical pretrib who would say there is one rapture and it will occur right before the tribulation, just as portrayed in the Left Behind fictional novels. There's no question that many people have been influenced by those novels.

Heaven and earth will pass away, and the Words of our Lord will no pass away. What are His words that will not pass away.
This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
when ye see these things come to pass

Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

There is a group of people that will see these things come to pass and there is a group of people that can escape all these things that come to pass. Both groups will be raptured.

The Church will escape all these things that come to pass. What things will the Church escape? False Christs, the beast of the sea and beast of the earth. Wars, famine, pestilence and the great tribulation.

Think about this. How can "all these things" that we will escape include the things that Jesus said would tell us "that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand"? Jesus was clearly indicating that we will still be here when "these things come to pass" or else He wouldn't have said that when we see them we'll know His coming is near.

You're missing that "all these things" that we will escape do not include the things mentioned in verse 31 which Jesus said believers will see and then know His coming is near. Rather, they the things that will occur on "that day" that Jesus comes:

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, what Jesus was saying there was to pray to escape what will happen "that day" He comes which will include God's wrath coming down "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" and will result in "heaven and earth" passing away.

So, Jesus was talking about praying to escape this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Paul wrote about that, too:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So, Luke 21:34-36 is describing the day of the Lord as evidenced by the obvious similarity to 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3. What we will escape, unbelievers "shall not escape". Agree?

So, what's left to discuss after seeing that scripture clearly teaches that sudden, unexpected global destruction will occur when Jesus returns is how long does the unexpected and "sudden destruction" last? It will involve fire coming down on the face of the whole earth and heaven and earth passing away. How long do you suppose that would take?

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

I would say it will take about as long as it took for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah with fire, which happened on the same day that Lot went out of Sodom. I would think it will happen pretty quickly.

 

[The Light]

Understand. It will keep a record though in top right corner.

Yes. But I don't get all of the red number alerts showing how many new posts i have not seen. Yes, I can go through each post and open it and see if I have seen it before. However you have so many posts that its too big a chore to do that constantly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your New Testament has been mistranslated to support the Trinitarian doctrine,

Are you part of the Jehovah's Witnesses religion? What Bible translation do you use?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't answer Yes or No questions.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize simple questions were too difficult for you to answer.

 

[CadyandZoe]

C&Z the HUMAN named Jesus, that is His physical body, died and was buried, but to prove death CANNOT hold God He arose from the grave physically to prove His SPIRIT, which God is, NEVER died!

Paul talks about this in Romans the first chapter.

Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead. Rather, it was God who raised Jesus from the dead in order to ratify his claim to be the messiah.

Romans 1:1-3

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel He promised beforehand through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to the flesh, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.​

The purpose of the resurrection was to declare Jesus to be the Son of God, which is a phrase that originates in a Psalm of David. Speaking about his future descendent, who will be granted a kingdom forever, he writes,

Psalm 8:4

What is man that You think of him, And a son of man that You are concerned about him?​

​

The Father raised Jesus from the dead to certify that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophetic word regarding a son who would come to rule over the nations and save his people.

David would not be amazed that a deity might live and rule on his throne forever. David's amazement comes from the fact that a man from his own body, a "son of man" will rule on his throne forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. But I don't get all of the red number alerts showing how many new posts i have not seen. Yes, I can go through each post and open it and see if I have seen it before. However you have so many posts that its too big a chore to do that constantly.

There has definitely been a flurry of posts in this thread. With that said, I hope you will respond to my post #1687 because I think it's worth examining Luke 21 more carefully than what it seems you have so far.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, was He God, did He become God? Does He merely have God qualities because He was sinless? Does He possess divine abilities?

Trinitarians attempt to understand the relationship between the Father and the Son in terms of his quiddity. But the Bible teaches us to understand the relationship between the Father and the Son in terms of their identity.

John teaches us that with regard to his quiddity, Jesus is a man, but with regard to his identity, he "exegetes" God. (explains God) Paul says that Jesus is the "image" of God and the exact representation of his nature. Jesus tells Phillip, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father."

 

[CadyandZoe]

You do know that God is Spirit, right?

Yes. I do know that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think we disagree on the subject of the godhead, or the trinity.
But I do appreciate your style and thoughtfulness.
You're willing to debate ,and these amils are not.
There is no debate once nastiness and dishonesty enters the picture

I also appreciate your attitude. Thanks for your encouraging comments.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul talks about this in Romans the first chapter.

Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead. Rather, it was God who raised Jesus from the dead in order to ratify his claim to be the messiah.

You're not saying anything here that us Christians disagree with. God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. But, we believe in what they call "the trinity" which is God in three persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time. So, to say that God the Father raised the man part of Jesus (awkward wording, but I don't know how else to put it) does not mean that Jesus was not also God.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

What is your understanding of this verse?

 

[honeycomb]

Hello, please tell me how what you're saying lines up with these passages:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Okay. When Christ returns, it will be on the last (seventh) trumpet. "The day of the Lord" refers to the day when Christ returns. On this day, Jesus Christ will return to earth and rule over this earthly kingdom for a thousand years (millennium).

When the Lord returns at the 7th trump, He will come as a thief in the night to those who are in the dark.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is almost word for word watchtower.

I've only read one or two issues of Watchtower because some people left them on my porch. However, my views are not based on Watchtower literature or teachings. My journey began with a question about how the trinity "works" exactly. In my quest, I studied Reformed teachings on the subject. I read a lot of reformed literature. I really wanted to understand why theologians affirmed the Trinity Doctrine. Even though they spoke as if they knew what it was and how it worked, their answers were not satisfying to me. I suspect the reason for my difficulties was my inability to accept the philosophical notions behind the doctrine. I simply could not accept contradiction as a basis for my faith.

 

[WPM]

Your New Testament has been mistranslated to support the Trinitarian doctrine, which was formulated in the 300s and enforced among Christians at the point of a sword. Not a very proud moment for Christians.

The truth is, according to Paul, God made the creation FOR his son and his mission.

Jesus isn't Yahweh. Jesus is Jesus.

Your translation supplied the word "him" where it should have read "it." According to John, "the word" was "in the beginning." All one needs to do is go back to Genesis to verify what John means to say.

Genesis 1:3-5

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”​

Here, we see that the vehicle of creation is the spoken word. God speaks things into existence. According to John, "All things were created by IT (the spoken word), and without IT (the spoken word) was not anything made that was made."

The first thing God created was light and John makes the connection between the creation light and the promise of life, which is the light of all men.

Trinitarians have corrupted John's gospel by introducing the concept of a Godhead where one was not intended by John. Once the Trinitarian dogma is removed, a wonderful declaration of God's eternal plan for salvation and Jesus' preeminence is revealed.


Another translation bent toward the False doctrine of Trinitarianism. John is saying that the word was created FOR him, not BY him.


To comprehend this passage, it's necessary to understand the preceding two paragraphs. John draws a parallel between God bringing light into the world through the spoken word in the form of electromagnetic radiation and how God brought light in the form of wisdom and divine revelation through his Son, who is the Light. It was "He" the light that came unto his own. He became the embodiment of the Light and dwelt among his people. And they beheld his glory (light) as of a one-of-a-kind Son.


It's also a common trait of those who attempt to show others what has happened to our faith over the centuries.

Not "BY" Jesus Christ. FOR Jesus Christ. The idea that God used an agent to create the world is Gnosticism, describing a divine being called the Demiurge, the agent responsible for creating the world. Why did the ancients believe this? They thought that the physical world was inherently evil and since God does not do evil, he can't be responsible for creating the physical world.

The Bible does not teach or infer that the physical world is evil.

Here the term "dia" means "in view of him."

Are you JW, Unitarian or Mormon or have you ever been those movements?