The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

Without fail you think more highly of your own interpretation of symbolic old and New Testament literature than you do of plainly written informative NT letters by people of the Lords own choosing.

See ? Above, you are doing a personal attack instead of addressing...

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?
At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?
Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

 

[jeffweeder]

See ? Above, you are doing a personal attack instead of addressing...

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?
At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?
Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

What personal attack?
Can you not see that the restraining influence is lifted in 2Thess 2?
Can you not see that satan goes forth in all power of deception as a consequence?

Why ask me questions you already know the answer to?
Its clear I believe satans last deception is prior to the Lords second coming.
2thess chap 1 and 2 make it clear the Lord comes in vengeance to give relief to his Church and eternally judge those who reject his Gospel--- On the day he glorifies his own.


4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

This is Paul's answer to you, not mine.

 

[WPM]

Apparently, you as a Amil don't care, as you also don't care about how the 15 end times time frames given in the bible fit together.

Amil has no end times scenario of what is going to take place right before Jesus's Second Coming. For example, Amil, what is the 42 months reign of the beast in Revelation 13:5 ?




View attachment 48146

When you are willing to discuss Scripture then we can do business instead of presenting questionable charts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?

Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

Douggg, you put jeffweeder's name on the Amil list in the thread you created to show who is Amil and who is Premil. So, why are you asking him these questions as if you don't know if he is Premil or Amil?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, you as a Amil don't care,

Why should any Amil care about things that don't pertain to our beliefs? Goodness sakes, Douggg.

as you also don't care about how the 15 end times time frames given in the bible fit together.

Another lie from Douggg. Why do you do this, Dougggggg? Hey, Douggggggg, how many times have I told you, Dougggggggggg, that we do care about those time frames but we simply don't interpret them the way you do. Okay, Douggggggggggggggg?

Amil has no end times scenario of what is going to take place right before Jesus's Second Coming.

Good grief. Another lie! Why, Dougggggggg? Why? I have told you that I believe the tribulation from the Amil perspective has to do with a time of significantly increased deception, persecution, wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith because of Satan's restraint being loosed. We believe Satan's little season occurs right before Jesus's Second Coming. I told you this, Dougggggggggggg. Why don't you pay attention to what we tell you so that you don't end up constantly misrepresenting what we believe?

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, you put jeffweeder's name on the Amil list in the thread you created to show who is Amil and who is Premil. So, why are you asking him these questions as if you don't know if he is Premil or Amil?

Because I am pointing out specifically is in the bible regarding Jesus's Second Coming, Satan being cast into the bottomless pit prison, and Satan not being released until the thousand years are over.

I am asking in stages which scriptures, he agrees with or disagrees with.

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?

Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

 

[Douggg]

Good grief. Another lie! Why, Dougggggggg? Why? I have told you that I believe the tribulation from the Amil perspective has to do with a time of significantly increased deception, persecution, wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith because of Satan's restraint being loosed. We believe Satan's little season occurs right before Jesus's Second Coming. I told you this, Dougggggggggggg. Why don't you pay attention to what we tell you so that you don't end up constantly misrepresenting what we believe?

Spritual Israelite: "I believe the tribulation from..."

Douggg: What tribulation are you referring to? Jesus said there would be a period of great tribulation immediately preceding His Return, in Matthew 24:15-21.


Spritiual Israelite: "...the Amil perspective has to do with a time of significantly increased deception, persecution, wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith because of Satan's restraint being loosed"


Douggg: When does that begin ? What are the signs that it has begun ? How do the end times time frames of events fit into it ?

 

[Douggg]

What personal attack?

jeff, you wrote....

"Without fail you think more highly of your own interpretation of symbolic old and New Testament literature than you do of plainly written informative NT letters by people of the Lords own choosing."

You are attacking me personally.

 

[Douggg]

This is Paul's answer to you, not mine.

jeff, I don't see how any of those things are an answer to the "agree or disagree" question to you.

I will focus on just one.

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

 

[Douggg]

Another lie from Douggg. Why do you do this, Dougggggg? Hey, Douggggggg, how many times have I told you, Dougggggggggg, that we do care about those time frames but we simply don't interpret them the way you do. Okay, Douggggggggggggggg?

Then provide your interpretation for each of them.

 

[jeffweeder]

jeff, you wrote....

"Without fail you think more highly of your own interpretation of symbolic old and New Testament literature than you do of plainly written informative NT letters by people of the Lords own choosing."

You are attacking me personally.

I was just stating a fact Doug.
You held to your own interpretation of Revelation 20 despite what Paul had to say about the subject in 2Thess 2.
Anyway, I have nothing else to say to you unless you are willing to discuss what the rest of the NT gas to say on these matters.
God bless

 

[Douggg]

I was just stating a fact Doug.

No, you were not stating a fact. You were attacking me, making false accusations with your statement... which is very vague. You don't name what symbolic old and New Testament literature. And you don't name what NT letters. You were attacking me.

"Without fail you think more highly of your own interpretation of symbolic old and New Testament literature than you do of plainly written informative NT letters by people of the Lords own choosing."

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?


11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Douggg]

When you are willing to discuss Scripture then we can do business instead of presenting questionable charts.

I will continue to present my charts as I choose.

But, can you state whether you Agree or disagree to the following...

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because I am pointing out specifically is in the bible regarding Jesus's Second Coming, Satan being cast into the bottomless pit prison, and Satan not being released until the thousand years are over.

I am asking in stages which scriptures, he agrees with or disagrees with.

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?

Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

Doug, it seems that you have completely lost your mind at this point. Do you still not know what Amils believe after all this time?

While some partial preterist Amils might answer no to the first question, the rest of us Amils would answer "Agree" to the first question and all Amils would answer "disagree" to the other 2 questions. How can you not know this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then provide your interpretation for each of them.

LOL. Look at Douggg. So demanding. Wow. Always thinking you can tell everyone what to do without politely asking instead. You are always on a power trip.

Anyway, you already know how we Amils interpret Daniel 9:24-27 by now, do you not? We believe that Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus confirming the new covenant by way of His sacrifice on the cross which made the old covenant with its animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete.

Did you somehow miss that I already told you how I interpret all the references in Revelation to "1260 days", "42 months" and "a time, times and half a time"? Why should I bother telling you anything when you don't read what I say, anyway? I already told you that I believe those time periods symbolically represent the New Testament time period up to Satan's little season that occurs just before Christ returns. So, for example, I personally see the symbolic 42 months and 1260 days of Revelation 11 as beginning with Christ's first coming and going up to the beginning of Satan's little season, so I see the 3.5 days of Revelation 11:9 as symbolically referring to Satan's little season.

The reason I interpret Revelation 11 the way I do is because I believe the two witnesses represent the church. They are called "two olive trees" and I believe that represents a wild olive tree (Gentiles) grafted in with the natural olive tree (Israel) like Paul wrote about in Romans 11. And they are also symbolically called "two candlesticks" and candlesticks represent churches in the book of Revelation (Rev 1:20). So, the two witnesses symbolically represent two congregations (Jew and Gentile believers) being joined together as one (Eph 2:11-3:6) witnessing throughout the world (Acts 1:8).

That the witnesses witness throughout the world rather than only in Jerusalem as people like you believe is made evident by these verses:

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The witnesses being dead for 3.5 days symbolically represents the silencing of the gospel for a little season before Christ returns. Notice that the beast ascends from the bottomless pit after the 42 months/1260 days ends:

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Before that the beast was restrained. Since the beast gets its power from the dragon (Satan) and the dragon uses the beast to do his bidding (Revelation 13:4), this means the dragon also was restrained in the bottomless pit before that. So, the dragon also ascends from the pit at that time (Revelation 20:7-9). The dragon (Satan) and his beast are given a little season without restraint to wreak havoc and then will be destroyed when Jesus returns. During that little season is when the significantly increased deception, persecution, wickedness and apostasy will occur that was prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24 and by Paul in 2 Thess 2:1-12 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3.

I don't expect you, with your hyperliteral, carnal mind to be able to understand any of this that I've said in this post, but this should show that I do not just ignore the 42 month, 1260 days, time, times and half a time and 3.5 day references as you falsely claim.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will continue to present my charts as I choose.

But, can you state whether you Agree or disagree to the following...

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

Douggg, do you not actually ever read any of WPM's posts? How can you not know by now that he believes Revelation 19:11-21 refers to the second coming of Jesus? Asking that question would be like us asking you if you believe Daniel 9:27 is referring to an Antichrist confirming a covenant or not. Come on, Doug. You should be embarrassed that you don't know what we believe by now after all these years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you were not stating a fact. You were attacking me, making false accusations with your statement... which is very vague.

LOL at you complaining about someone else making false accusations.

 

[WPM]

I will continue to present my charts as I choose.

But, can you state whether you Agree or disagree to the following...

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

Agree

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is all your own opinions. When multiple Scripture has been submitted to you, you dismiss it, rubbish it and reject it. Your fight is with the Word of God not with Posttribbers.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

You did not address it.
"

You make claims and don't back them up with scripture. What good is that? Is it too much to ask you to actually show how you come to your conclusions the way people like WPM, jeffweeder and I do? Is that too much effort for you?

Scripture repeatedly indicates that no mortals survive the second coming of Christ. He is only coming from heaven once in the future and it was alluded to in Acts 1:9-11. What does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say happens to Christians at that time? First, the dead in Christ are resurrected and then they, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Paul goes on from there to indicate that happens to unsaved people at that time. Paul said "sudden destruction" will come upon them unexpectedly like a thief in the night from which "they shall not escape".

That is the same thing that both Jesus and Peter said would occur at Christ's second coming.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3 Paul does not specify what causes the "sudden destruction" from which Christ's enemies "shall not escape", but Peter does. He indicates that it will be by way of fire on the entire earth. The heavens and earth will be burned up at that time, resulting in "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness".

That is no different than what Jesus taught here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Just like Paul and Peter, Jesus taught that His second coming will be unexpected (no one knows the day or hour) and, like Peter, He indicated that heaven and earth will pass away at that time. Jesus specifically compared the scope of destruction at His second coming to the scope of destruction of the flood in Noah's day. Just like Peter did in 2 Peter 3:6-7. How many unbelievers survived the flood? None.

So, there it is. Scripture teaches that there are no survivors of the second coming of Christ except those who belong to Him whose bodies will be made immortal at that time (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54). That does not allow for any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom at that time.

So, I have backed up my belief here with scripture. If you disagree, then please show what you believe using scripture. Show me how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Matthew 24:35-39. You said before that you think 1 Thess 5:2-3 is involving "emotional destruction". Are you going to stick with that or will you look at these other passages and realize he was talking about physical destruction by way of the wrath of God at Christ's second coming?

I give 4 or 5 verses.
Then the kookoo response:
" you make claims and don't back them up with scripture"
Nobody here is going to take your lies seriously.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL at you complaining about someone else making false accusations.

Watch Pinocchio.
A clue is in there for you