The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

Scripture explicitly teaches that Jesus's resurrection is the first resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

So, using scripture to interpret scripture we should understand that having part in the first resurrection involves having part in Christ's resurrection.

Scripture does not teach that Jesus's resurrection is the first resurrection of the millennium.

Jesus was resurrected thousands of years before the millennium begins.


The first resurrection of the millennium is of the martyred great tribulation saints - who testified of Jesus and refused to worship the beast, his image, nor took his mark.

After the millennium has ended and Satan's last deception of the nations, is the second resurrection, that of the rest of the dead.

There will three resurrections of Christians....

1. The rapture/resurrection event of all Christians up to that point, before the great tribulation begins.

2. The resurrection of the great tribulation martyred Christians at the beginning of the millennium.

3. The resurrection of the rest of the dead, including Christians who did not take part in either (1) or (2). Which would include Christians who died during the great tribulation period, but were not martyrs. And persons who become Christians during the millennium and die during the millennium.

The Great White Throne Judgment, for which the second resurrection relative to the millennium takes place, will include those saved Christians (3) and the unsaved of all times.

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What you are trying to do @Spiritual Israelite is to redefine what is the first resurrection of the millennium.

The term "millennium" is not even found in the bible. It is a term created to refer to the 1000 year period in Revelation 20.

Amil denies that 1000 year period as literal' and thus Amil moves the destruction of this present world in Revelation 20:11 to be on the day of Jesus's Second Coming. Which Amil also denies Jesus's Second Coming is to stand again on this present earth as it says in Zechariah 14:2-5.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Which you are completely unable to prove. Your lack of ability to back up your claims convincingly is very evident, so there is no reason for anyone to take you seriously.

Are you being a bit disingenuous, no? I have already proven it in countless threads on this board over the many years, a testament to the enduring nature of our debate.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I already told you. Is "the truth of scripture" too vague for you?

Are you sure? What would an objective observer see in this thread? I see a lot of insults, put-downs, name-calling,

This thread teaches the truth that the pretrib doctrine is false and also happens to teach that amil is true at the same time.

I disagree for the reasons that I have already stated.

There are plenty of lurkers out there who are undecided about these things and trying to learn about it.

I don't think they are reading this thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your challenge earlier to Doug that there are no "after effects"

QUOTE
"There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape."

Where in eschatology are there no survivors?

2nd coming?...nope
Rapture? Nope
Gathering of the Jews? Nope.

What does your doctrine say?

You make claims and don't back them up with scripture. What good is that? Is it too much to ask you to actually show how you come to your conclusions the way people like WPM, jeffweeder and I do? Is that too much effort for you?

Scripture repeatedly indicates that no mortals survive the second coming of Christ. He is only coming from heaven once in the future and it was alluded to in Acts 1:9-11. What does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say happens to Christians at that time? First, the dead in Christ are resurrected and then they, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Paul goes on from there to indicate that happens to unsaved people at that time. Paul said "sudden destruction" will come upon them unexpectedly like a thief in the night from which "they shall not escape".

That is the same thing that both Jesus and Peter said would occur at Christ's second coming.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3 Paul does not specify what causes the "sudden destruction" from which Christ's enemies "shall not escape", but Peter does. He indicates that it will be by way of fire on the entire earth. The heavens and earth will be burned up at that time, resulting in "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness".

That is no different than what Jesus taught here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Just like Paul and Peter, Jesus taught that His second coming will be unexpected (no one knows the day or hour) and, like Peter, He indicated that heaven and earth will pass away at that time. Jesus specifically compared the scope of destruction at His second coming to the scope of destruction of the flood in Noah's day. Just like Peter did in 2 Peter 3:6-7. How many unbelievers survived the flood? None.

So, there it is. Scripture teaches that there are no survivors of the second coming of Christ except those who belong to Him whose bodies will be made immortal at that time (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54). That does not allow for any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom at that time.

So, I have backed up my belief here with scripture. If you disagree, then please show what you believe using scripture. Show me how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Matthew 24:35-39. You said before that you think 1 Thess 5:2-3 is involving "emotional destruction". Are you going to stick with that or will you look at these other passages and realize he was talking about physical destruction by way of the wrath of God at Christ's second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you being a bit disingenuous, no? I have already proven it in countless threads on this board over the many years, a testament to the enduring nature of our debate.

Do you not care if everyone else posting in this thread knows what you believe or not? Why are you even here? You know that I think your doctrine is a complete joke and your denial of the deity of Christ bothers me greatly. So, are you just trying to annoy me? Is that your purpose in being here? You sure are doing NOTHING to back up your beliefs, so I'm seeing no point in your being here in a thread that has to do with refuting pretrib.

What you have proven is that you have no idea of what you're talking about and you have proven to be a fraud who denies the deity of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you sure? What would an objective observer see in this thread? I see a lot of insults, put-downs, name-calling,

I'm trying to put an end to all that by just talking about scripture. Which side of the debate has called the other "Satan", "evil spirits" while comparing them to "gay guys" and supporting trans people and so on?

I disagree for the reasons that I have already stated.

Well, good for you.

I don't think they are reading this thread.

I don't care what you think about that. I know better. Be ignorant if you want. That's your choice.

 

[Douggg]

Where in the Bible does it teach that "Antichrist ... will confirm a peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations"?

It is an interpretation of Daniel 9:26b-27. Just as your beliefs regarding those verses are an interpretation.

Most Pre-mils consider the covenant in Daniel 9:27 as being a forthcoming peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations. And the prince that shall come as the Antichrist.

I don't consider the covenant as being a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant, with the prince that shall come being the perceived King of Israel messiah that the Jews (Judaism) are looking for.

Understanding what Daniel's people - the Jews - believe is important to understanding how events of the end times time frames will be fulfilled. A person can go to the Judaism101.org site and read about the mashiach (messiah) regarding what the Jews believe. Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Among those beliefs is that the messiah will be a great politician and halve military abilities. Which leads me to suspect Zelensky of Ukraine. Too early to tell for certain. But his conflict will Russia (part of the Gog/Magog group), and Ukraine close to becoming a full EU member is another factor.

Of course none of that means anything to Amils who have no end times scenario involving the Antichrist, who later becomes the beast-king for 42 months, correct ? Although the beast-king and the 42 months are in Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is all your own opinions. When multiple Scripture has been submitted to you, you dismiss it, rubbish it and reject it. Your fight is with the Word of God not with Posttribbers.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

That reminds me of one certain thing that Premils believe that blatantly contradicts scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul made it clear that mortal, corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And, yet, Premils believe that mortal, corruptible flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God because that is how they interpret this passage:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:....41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This cannot be referring to mortal believers inheriting the kingdom of God since Paul made it clear that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Also, this says the sheep inherit "life eternal" in the kingdom of God, so that can only be referring to those who belong to Christ and have been changed to have immortal and incorruptible bodies.

One other thing worth mentioning is that the timing of the lost being cast "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" is said to occur when Jesus comes with His angels, not a thousand years after His second coming as Premils believe. Revelation 20 makes it very clear that the devil (and his angels) and the lost being cast into the fire occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season).

 

[covenantee]

It is an interpretation of Daniel 9:26b-27. Just as your beliefs regarding those verses are an interpretation.

It was not the interpretation for seventeen centuries of the historical true Christian Church.

It is a modernist interpretation.

Which to believe?

I'll take the first one, every time.

 

[WPM]

It is an interpretation of Daniel 9:26b-27. Just as your beliefs regarding those verses are an interpretation.

Most Pre-mils consider the covenant in Daniel 9:27 as being a forthcoming peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations. And the prince that shall come as the Antichrist.

I don't consider the covenant as being a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant, with the prince that shall come being the perceived King of Israel messiah that the Jews (Judaism) are looking for.

Understanding what Daniel's people - the Jews - believe is important to understanding how events of the end times time frames will be fulfilled. A person can go to the Judaism101.org site and read about the mashiach (messiah) regarding what the Jews believe. Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Among those beliefs is that the messiah will be a great politician and halve military abilities. Which leads me to suspect Zelensky of Ukraine. Too early to tell for certain. But his conflict will Russia (part of the Gog/Magog group), and Ukraine close to becoming a full EU member is another factor.

Of course none of that means anything to Amils who have no end times scenario involving the Antichrist, who later becomes the beast-king for 42 months, correct ? Although the beast-king and the 42 months are in Revelation.

No. It is not an interpretation of Daniel 9. It is a misrepresentation of It. It does not say that. This typifies your doctrine. It is built on sand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Understanding what Daniel's people - the Jews - believe is important to understanding how events of the end times time frames will be fulfilled. A person can go to the Judaism101.org site and read about the mashiach (messiah) regarding what the Jews believe. Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

This says it all right here. You think consulting false religion websites is the key to understanding scripture. Not spiritual discernment. Not interpreting scripture with scripture. You think we need to base our understanding of Daniel 9 on the nonsense that those who are part of the false religion of Judaism believe. Unbelievable. Absolutely says it all about your mindset.

 

[covenantee]

Scripture does not teach that Jesus's resurrection is the first resurrection of the millennium.

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no "first resurrection of the millennium". There are not two first resurrections.

The Scriptural first resurrection, which raises us up from the first death (i.e. the spiritual death of our sins), to spiritual life together with Christ who is Himself the first resurrection; is the salvation experience which makes us blessed and holy (Revelation 20:6):

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

For those of us who experience this first resurrection, the second death, i.e. eternal punishment; no longer has any power over us, for Christ has declared that whoever believes in Him will never die (John 11:26), and Paul tells us that “death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

There is no waiting required for the first resurrection.

We are alive today in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no "first resurrection of the millennium". There are not two first resurrections.

The Scriptural first resurrection, which raises us up from the first death (i.e. the spiritual death of our sins), to spiritual life together with Christ who is Himself the first resurrection; is the salvation experience which makes us blessed and holy (Revelation 20:6):

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

For those of us who experience this first resurrection, the second death, i.e. eternal punishment; no longer has any power over us, for Christ has declared that whoever believes in Him will never die (John 11:26), and Paul tells us that “death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

There is no waiting required for the first resurrection.

We are alive today in Christ.

Amen! Another thing I do to show that having part in the first resurrection has already taken place for each of us is show how Revelation 1:5-6 can be used to interpret Revelation 20:6.

Look at the similarities here:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here are some things to note about Revelation 1:5-6 that we can use to understand the meaning and timing of Revelation 20:6:

• It says Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection (also taught in other verses like Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20 and Col 1:18).
• It says that Jesus IS "the prince of the kings of the earth and "glory and dominion" belong to Him now.
• It says that Jesus "washed us from our sins in his own blood" which we know results in salvation from the second death (Rom 6:23).
• It says that believers have been MADE "kings and priests unto God and his Father".

Revelation 1:5-6 clearly shows that Revelation 20:6 is a current reality. Premils need to acknowledge this, but they ignore things like this and therefore many of them do not understand that He is King of kings and Lord of lords NOW and we, along with the souls of the dead in Christ, reign with Him NOW.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where did Jesus teach that?

Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."
By this, we understand that Jesus anticipated an earthly kingdom that the Father would bring about.

And why are you unwilling to answer my question as to why Paul made no mention of Jesus coming to the earth? Are you afraid to answer that question?

Okay, here you go.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ, all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

each in his own order:

1. Christ
2. those who are Christ's at his coming
3. then comes the end.

then comes the end:

Think logically now. The last enemy is death. Before death is defeated, Christ will spend time on earth abolishing all authority and power. He must reign (on earth) until the Father has placed all of his enemies under his feet. During that time, Christ will bring all things into subjection to Him. Once he has done all that, THEN Christ himself will be subjected to the Father.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Scriptural first resurrection, which raises us up from the first death (i.e. the spiritual death of our sins), to spiritual life together with Christ who is Himself the first resurrection; is the salvation experience which makes us blessed and holy (Revelation 20:6):

No. That is not true. Resurrection is when the body is brought back to life.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Apparently, you are not willing to do ANYTHING to back up any of your claims. What a waste of time it is to talk to you. Shame on me for even bothering to do so.

What?! What are you talking about? Did you not understand that I was talking about Revelation chapter 20?

 

[covenantee]

No. That is not true. Resurrection is when the body is brought back to life.

Tell Paul.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[CadyandZoe]

I know this is long, but is actually brief, and best I can do in a short space to covey…the transforming of reasonable reliance on the Carnal Mind and it becoming made sub-servant to the transformed spirit of man.

So, when Paul talks about the "carnal mind," do you think he means to say that the mind is deficient somehow? I don't get that.
I go back to Paul's discussion in Romans 1, where he asserts that mankind can know about the invisible God from the things that he has made, and in that context, he condemns mankind because while they knew the truth about God, they were unrighteous in their suppression of that knowledge.

Unbelief is a suppression of knowledge that one already knows.

If a sinner or an unbeliever can't apprehend spiritual things as you seem to suggest, then they are blameless. How can God blame them for rejecting something they can't understand? No, I think rather that unbelievers DO understand and reject it anyway, which is why they are without excuse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."
By this, we understand that Jesus anticipated an earthly kingdom that the Father would bring about.

Maybe you weren't aware of this, but I believe that Jesus will be renewing this earth by fire rather than creating an entirely separate new earth. So, the kingdom will be on the renewed earth (new earth) for eternity.

Okay, here you go.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ, all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

each in his own order:

1. Christ
2. those who are Christ's at his coming
3. then comes the end.

then comes the end:

Think logically now. The last enemy is death. Before death is defeated, Christ will spend time on earth abolishing all authority and power. He must reign (on earth) until the Father has placed all of his enemies under his feet. During that time, Christ will bring all things into subjection to Him. Once he has done all that, THEN Christ himself will be subjected to the Father.

Where is there any indication there that there is a long period of time between His coming and the end? None that I can see. Also, when it says "He must reign" it's in the present tense. So, it's saying He must reign as He is now until all of His enemies are under His feet including the last enemy, death. He reigns now (Matt 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6) and will continue to reign until His second coming at which point He will defeat the last enemy, death, and deliver the kingdom to the Father.

You say "think logically"? Okay. Follow this logic.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Did you happen to read the rest of 1 Corinthians 15? Paul doesn't end his narrative in verse 28. He later says this:

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

So, when will the last enemy, death be destroyed and defeated? At the last trumpet when Jesus returns. At that point death will have been "swallowed up in victory". Is that isn't the destruction and defeat of the last enemy, death, then I don't know what is. We wont need to wait 1,000+ years for Christ's last enemy to be defeated. He will defeat it at His glorious and climactic return!

 

[Douggg]

This says it all right here. You think consulting false religion websites is the key to understanding scripture. Not spiritual discernment. Not interpreting scripture with scripture. You think we need to base our understanding of Daniel 9 on the nonsense that those who are part of the false religion of Judaism believe. Unbelievable. Absolutely says it all about your mindset.

Do you know what the Jews (Judaism) are looking for in their anticipated messiah ?

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are determined upon Daniel's people - the Jews - and Jerusalem.