The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

The Lord is not an author of confusion by speaking of two comings for us without clearly telling us.

He did clearly tell you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

so why do you believe the first resurrection of Rev 20 involves a physical resurrection in order to escape coming into judgment?

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

Resurrection is when someone, such as Jesus, is risen from the dead. The Rapture involves resurrection from the dead for those who are "dead in Christ" and it also involves the transportation of Jesus' followers to meet Jesus in the air.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Right. Good point.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse suggests that having part in the first resurrection is the way that someone avoids the second death, which is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15), and the way that the second death has no power over you. So, does a person need to physically die and wait until they are bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have any power over them? Premil would have to answer yes to that question based on their interpretation of this verse.

But, we know that even NOW the second death has no power over us (Christians) and certainly no power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven now. So, we need to interpret Revelation 20 in light of all this, but premils don't do that. That's why Premil contradicts so much scripture. It tries to make the rest of scripture fit with its interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of the other way around. So, their approach to interpreting Revelation 20 is very faulty.

Apparently, you don't understand what John meant by "first resurrection." The passage mentions two resurrections: verse 4 discusses the first resurrection, and verse 13 discusses the second resurrection.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Was Paul not aware of Jesus supposedly coming down to the earth at His second coming? I would say no one was more knowledgeable than Paul about Christ's second coming. Yet, he said nothing anywhere in all his letters about Jesus being on the earth after His second coming. Did he just somehow forget that detail or did he know that isn't going to happen? I would vote for the latter.

Was Paul unaware of Jesus' teaching concerning his second coming to set up a kingdom on earth?

 

[Douggg]

The pre-trib view is based on the trib being the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. Pre-trib adherents consider the prince that shall come of Daniel 9:26 as being the Antichrist person who will confirm a peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations.

Part of the reason for the Pre-trib belief the covenant will be a peace treaty is that in Daniel 8:25, the little horn person (the same person as the prince that shall come) destroys many by peace.

-------------------------------------------

I don't agree with these three aspects of the pre-trib view.

1. is that the 7 years will not all be tribulation. For most of the first half the world will be saying "peace and safety".

2. is that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is not a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant. The requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle was established by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

3. is that I disagree with the pre-trib view that the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The scripture you believe is symbolic, isn't symbolic.

Which you are completely unable to prove. Your lack of ability to back up your claims convincingly is very evident, so there is no reason for anyone to take you seriously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you believe that someone can avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection?

Yes, by being a Christian.

Agree! We might be finally getting somewhere with you!

So, if someone avoids the second death by being a Christian then why wouldn't you consider that having part in the first resurrection, which results in avoiding the second death, has to do with being a Christian?

Scripture explicitly teaches that Jesus's resurrection is the first resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

So, using scripture to interpret scripture we should understand that having part in the first resurrection involves having part in Christ's resurrection.

The question then is, have we Christians had part in Christ's resurrection in any way? Scripture says we have! Observe...

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So, would you agree with the scriptures above that when we are saved we spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection? Do you agree that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection, according to scripture like Acts 26:23 and 1st Corinthians 15:20? Would you agree that having part in Christ's resurrection spiritually means the second death has no power over us?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I observe that Amil never talks about any of these end times time frames, even metaphorically. It is because Amil is an unworkable, irrational view.

Doug, you're back to lying again. We discuss Daniel 9:24-27 quite a bit. You can't possibly have missed that. Also, we talk a lot about the NT time period which I believe is symbolically represented by the 42 months, 1260 days and time, times and half a time references. Just because i don't obsess over time frames like you do doesn't mean I ignore those time frames. I simply do not interpret them the way you do. So, stop lying about Amil as if we ignore those time frames because we don't. Lying about Amil only makes you look like you have nothing to support your own doctrine, so you have to resort to lying about the opposing doctrine instead since that's all you have to offer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you think this thread teaches lurkers?

I already told you. Is "the truth of scripture" too vague for you? This thread teaches the truth that the pretrib doctrine is false and also happens to teach that amil is true at the same time. There are plenty of lurkers out there who are undecided about these things and trying to learn about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was Paul unaware of Jesus' teaching concerning his second coming to set up a kingdom on earth?

Where did Jesus teach that? And why are you unwilling to answer my question as to why Paul made no mention of Jesus coming to the earth? Are you afraid to answer that question?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, you don't understand what John meant by "first resurrection." The passage mentions two resurrections: verse 4 discusses the first resurrection, and verse 13 discusses the second resurrection.

Apparently, you are not willing to do ANYTHING to back up any of your claims. What a waste of time it is to talk to you. Shame on me for even bothering to do so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The pre-trib view is based on the trib being the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. Pre-trib adherents consider the prince that shall come of Daniel 9:26 as being the Antichrist person who will confirm a peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations.

Part of the reason for the Pre-trib belief the covenant will be a peace treaty is that in Daniel 8:25, the little horn person (the same person as the prince that shall come) destroys many by peace.

-------------------------------------------

I don't agree with these three aspects of the pre-trib view.

1. is that the 7 years will not all be tribulation. For most of the first half the world will be saying "peace and safety".

2. is that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is not a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant. The requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle was established by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

3. is that I disagree with the pre-trib view that the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

But, you are pre-trib in the sense that you believe the rapture will occur before "the great tribulation", so as far as I'm concerned you should be lumped in with the rest of the pre-tribs with the understanding that we don't all have the exact same understanding of what the tribulation entails.

Pre-trib involves believing that the rapture will occur some time before a time of great tribulation and before the second coming of Christ rather than at the same time of His second coming and that is what you believe.

 

[The Light]

The pre-trib view is based on the trib being the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. Pre-trib adherents consider the prince that shall come of Daniel 9:26 as being the Antichrist person who will confirm a peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations.

Part of the reason for the Pre-trib belief the covenant will be a peace treaty is that in Daniel 8:25, the little horn person (the same person as the prince that shall come) destroys many by peace.

-------------------------------------------

I don't agree with these three aspects of the pre-trib view.

1. is that the 7 years will not all be tribulation. For most of the first half the world will be saying "peace and safety".

When they say peace and safety it is after the tribulation. That is the 6th seal coming of Jesus. They say peace and safety because they see the great tribulation is over, only to be cast into the 7th seal wrath of God.

2. is that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is not a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant. The requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle was established by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

No sir. It will be a 7 year covenant with many that is confirmed by the Antichrist. Likely a UN covenant.

3. is that I disagree with the pre-trib view that the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

I agree with you here because Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood and not 7.

 

[Taken]

I agree with you in general. However, I wish to know how your POV informed your response to my post concerning logic and reason.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by your comment, but suspect it is wondering ?? IF I do at all consider mindful logic and reasoning, regarding spiritual things.

Scripture doesn’t use the term “logic”, but does se the term “reason”, which both terms basically mean…to give some weight to your instinctual “senses”.

For myself…”senses” means…(my POV…the seven “holes” in our head…2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 nostrils, 1 mouth); the eyes, the ears, the nose, the mouth, the tongue….God Created, via dust, via His hand forming and THEN…via Gods “soul”, His Breath, His giving into a man; Made, the eyes, the ears, the nose, the mouth, the tongue…function:
Seeing, hearing, smelling, utter sounds, taste;
Which gave manKind the means and ability to Communicate…with other humans, animals, our natural habitat in general.
And God Claiming…He is the CREATOR and MAKER.

Via our communication skills and experiences, our MIND (Brain functions as the interpreter) … as to what we naturally experience seems rightly and “sence-able”.
Male / female copulation, then reproducing it same Kind of thing…Animals migrating to avoid danger, to find food, to find water…Avoiding that animal, that plant, those berries, constructing shelters, caring for young, teaching their young, etc. Mimicking behaviors.
We “rely” on generational passed forward knowledge and outcomes of experiments of trials of discovered new things.
We “observe”, the marvelous things WHICH..surrounds our planet, our habitat…The clouds, mountains, vast water, a lightening strike, the massive trees, plants, sun, etc. and “wonder” in awe…WHAT Created and Made These Things? Animals didn’t. Man didn’t.
What is reasonable, to a Carnal Mind the “thing” that Created and Made these things?
Something…we can NOT see, hear, smell, taste, touch ? Phenomenal…YET, it is a mystery…that our Carnal minds will GRASP, because there is ONLY ONE source that has claimed to have Created and Made…and nothing else has. (No need for me to expound on the How the one source, taught manKind, and revealed He is the one source.)
Point being, we use our reasoning, of our Carnal Minds daily, for landing on reasonable / personally satisfactory outcomes. Often men take “risks’, unsure of the outcome.
Either enjoying the results or disappointed in the consequence of the risk taking for a particular thing.
Point Being…our communication skills, (via the life in our souls (Gods Breath)….IS effective for communication between and among men…
HOWEVER…for a revealed and offered “communication” option BETWEEN manKind AND…this unseeable, unhearable, untouchable…”only thing” claiming to have Created and Made all things…IT requires a LEAP for each individual to freely choose to TAKE a whirl at that such option.
An individuals OWN personal experiment, trial, if you will.
Quite assuredly it beings with…Carnal Reasoning….IF NOT “this thing”…(as it claims)…WHAT HAS created and made all things?
The free choice of a man to being hearing, learning about, experiencing Likable results they may view as a “good stroke of luck” or as “a blessing from this thing, called God”.
Like any thing new to ManKIND, it is a TRIAL, and interim of ya, of humm, of doubt, of ya, of maybe, of no today, and yes tomorrow….
(This interim can continue for YEARS…can be delved into, can be set on the back burner, can be influenced by other sources to keep delving, or to reject it.)
The Fact is: While an “individual” IS “delving”, believing….Gods Spirit is “WITH” that individual…(NOT “IN” the man), but “with” that man.
The Fact is: When an “individual” IS NOT “with” God…Gods Spirit is NOT “with” that individual.
An individual CAN reasonably “conclude”…a pattern in his own daily life… liable, UN-likable outcomes…when God IS or IS NOT “with” them.
An individual CAN hear, learn, Choose or Reject…Gods Offering according to Gods Order and Way and made possible by, through, of Christ Jesus to Accept God to FOREVER, be “WITH” that individual, and COMMIT to Accepting Gods Offer…or not.
“IF” and “WHEN” and individual (without encumbrance) Freely chooses Gods Offering….An “unseen” once and Forever SPIRITUAL transformation (of THAT individual) takes place By, Through, Of the Spirit of God.
AND….that previous “closed door /avenue” for THAT individual to have Direct Communication WITH God…is become WIDE OPEN…to any time, any day, any place….spirit to Spirit…(without consulting (so to speak) the Carnal MIND).

I know this is long, but is actually brief, and best I can do in a short space to covey…the transforming of reasonable reliance on the Carnal Mind and it becoming made sub-servant to the transformed spirit of man.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

But, you are pre-trib in the sense that you believe the rapture will occur before "the great tribulation", so as far as I'm concerned you should be lumped in with the rest of the pre-tribs with the understanding that we don't all have the exact same understanding of what the tribulation entails.

Pre-trib involves believing that the rapture will occur some time before a time of great tribulation and before the second coming of Christ rather than at the same time of His second coming and that is what you believe.

we don't all have the exact same understanding of what the tribulation entails.

What do YOU believe in brief…
1) the Purpose of the Last Days Tribulations?
2) Where it comes From?
3) What the Last Days Tribulations “entails” ?

Thanks.

Glory to GOD,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do YOU believe in brief…
1) the Purpose of the Last Days Tribulations?
2) Where it comes From?
3) What the Last Days Tribulations “entails” ?

Thanks.

Glory to GOD,
Taken

You said "in brief", so I will try to make it brief.

Answering your questions in order...

1) For God to get people to make their final decisions on who they want to follow (Christ or Satan) because the time is short.

2) I'm not sure what this question means exactly, but I would say it comes about by God loosing the restraint He had placed on Satan and wickedness during the New Testament era (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, Revelation 20:7-9). That restraint had to do with the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit during NT times which made a huge impact on the world compared to OT times. I believe God will allow the preaching of the gospel to largely go ignored during that time which will result in increased wickedness. I think we are likely living during that time already now. If not, then we seem to be quickly approaching it. I'll stop there or this will no longer be a brief response.

3) To me, it's about spiritual tribulation involving significantly increased deception, wickedness and persecution along with a mass falling away from the faith. This is based on scriptures like Matthew 24:10-13, Matthew 24:23-26, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 20:7-9. As an Amil I refer to that time period as "Satan's little season".

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you expect anyone to actually know what you are intending to say here? If so, how?

Your challenge earlier to Doug that there are no "after effects"

You started good showing us a rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. The only problem is, we all believe that. That is not even the issue. You couldn't get any further than that in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. That is because:

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

Your doctrine immediately falls apart at the starting blocks. falls apart.

Because you have nothing there, you started gerrymandering other Scripture in order to somehow present some semblance of biblical merit.

We all agree with Romans 1 that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." So, how does that prove Pretrib? It does not!

You randomly quote Revelation 11 without any exegesis. What does that prove? Where is your rapture here? Where is your seven year tribulation here? Where is your third coming here? Nowhere to be seen! The shows the impotence of your position! You have nothing!

I never once said that you should not voice your personal opinion on your personal relationship with the Lord anywhere. Why would I do that? I was cutting across your insults, slights, and ad hominem. I was telling you to keep that away from this thread. I stand by that.

So, it seems like you have nothing to support your position. You reinforce the Op. This is obviously a man-made doctrine that is cobbled together through manipulating Scripture.

QUOTE
"There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape."

Where in eschatology are there no survivors?

2nd coming?...nope
Rapture? Nope
Gathering of the Jews? Nope.

What does your doctrine say?

 

[WPM]

The pre-trib view is based on the trib being the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. Pre-trib adherents consider the prince that shall come of Daniel 9:26 as being the Antichrist person who will confirm a peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations.

Part of the reason for the Pre-trib belief the covenant will be a peace treaty is that in Daniel 8:25, the little horn person (the same person as the prince that shall come) destroys many by peace.

-------------------------------------------

I don't agree with these three aspects of the pre-trib view.

1. is that the 7 years will not all be tribulation. For most of the first half the world will be saying "peace and safety".

2. is that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is not a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant. The requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle was established by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

3. is that I disagree with the pre-trib view that the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.

Where in the Bible does it teach that "Antichrist ... will confirm a peace treaty involving Israel and surrounding middle east nations"?

 

[WPM]

Your challenge earlier to Doug that there are no "after effects"

QUOTE
"There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape."

Where in eschatology are there no survivors?

2nd coming?...nope
Rapture? Nope
Gathering of the Jews? Nope.

What does your doctrine say?

This is all your own opinions. When multiple Scripture has been submitted to you, you dismiss it, rubbish it and reject it. Your fight is with the Word of God not with Posttribbers.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

 

[Taken]

You said "in brief", so I will try to make it brief.

Answering your questions in order...

1) For God to get people to make their final decisions on who they want to follow (Christ or Satan) because the time is short.

Agree…Number one…is God fulfilling His Promise to SAVE His people, Israel. They hear from (two witnesses, “their” Hebrew fathers…AND the 144,000 of each of the “their” Jewish tribes /mt Zion)…
(Back story…Hebrews/Jews believed in God, in His WORD…but were blinded to trust to believe, Gods WORD “is” Jesus…Blinders OFF, and teaching sent to the Jews…BY their “Own”..ie as we naturally are trusting of our “Own” rather than “others” (in this case, such as Gentiles, teaching the Jews, failed for 2 thousand years).
And Yes…aside from the Jews, time is short for all Gentiles to get to getting and decide.

2) I'm not sure what this question means exactly, but I would say it comes about by God loosing the restraint He had placed on Satan and wickedness during the New Testament era (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, Revelation 20:7-9). That restraint had to do with the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit during NT times which made a huge impact on the world compared to OT times. I believe God will allow the preaching of the gospel to largely go ignored during that time which will result in increased wickedness. I think we are likely living during that time already now. If not, then we seem to be quickly approaching it. I'll stop there or this will no longer be a brief response.

Agree. Expanding…Not only is Satan given greater authority and power to unleash his tribulations and wrath against those who reject him…
So also IS the Lambs, authority, seal by seal opening, unleashing Tribulations and his Wrath for having been rejected…
…these ARE Tribulations and resulting Wrath…that come DOWN expressly FROM Heaven…( which ARE express Judgements against “living men” who have rejected …(the lamb, the devil, God…)
which continue forth unto Gods own Tribulations and wrath against living men.

3) To me, it's about spiritual tribulation involving significantly increased deception, wickedness and persecution along with a mass falling away from the faith. This is based on scriptures like Matthew 24:10-13, Matthew 24:23-26, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 20:7-9. As an Amil I refer to that time period as "Satan's little season".

Agree.
Aside from man against mans “tribulations”…the end days…is Tribulations from Heaven…
1-21…each step increasing in negative effects upon (stubborn) manKind.

And the point of the tribulations and wrath from Heaven, yes, IS precisely about “the spirits of “LIVING” men, being their last opportunity to to Decide, Choose, Commit.
(Because…making no definitive choice is not an option…Because a man who DOES NOT CHOOSE God…IS against God. Period, per scripture.)

Gentiles have had overwhelmingly hearing and notice and open teaching ABOUT God and His Word Jesus and His Power Christ.

Hebrews / Jews, have NOT routinely accepted or taught the Same.

Observe the end days…
Two witnesses…sent to Jerusalem…primarily the Home of the Jews, to Hear the Gospel
144,000 Jews…sent to mt Zion…primarily the Home of the Jews to Hear the Gospel

The rest of the World, primarily the Nations of the Gentiles…?
ONE angel flys and speaks the Gospel.

This presents a fulfillment that ALL shall hear, thus, no excuses, of oops, I didn’t know.

NOW…a follow up question…

What exactly is “the purpose” for those “IN” Christ (having Already given their own body unto Death to God….)
to be on the face of the Earth and subject to the suffering of the tribulations and wrath and judgements of the lamb, the suffering of the tribulations and wrath and judgements of the devil and the suffering of the tribulations and wrath and judgements of God?

What exactly ARE the already SAVED doing “in THOSE Days” ON the face of the Earth?

Thanks.

Glory to God,
Taken